Some Tweaks to Give Trick Arrow a Point

[Bossk_Hogg]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I think the crux of this counter is that it's fine being mediocre unless you specify specifically how it is not fine.

 

That being said, I recall the devs speaking about aspects of the engine that will grant them capabilities to do things once deemed impossible (like being vectored knockback giving them the ability to implement "knock towards").  Just some food for thought there.

Why is it not a weak set? Run the numbers, it offers lower debuffs than radiation, which also has a heal, a fantastic utility/damage buff, a rez, an AE hold aura, etc. ALL it has going for it is oil slick, which you apparently hate the idea of being easy to light.

 

Why do you think the set is OK, other than COH is so easy that Brawlman can get to 50? Because if you're drawing the line at being playable, then I guess we can end the discussion, because nothing should ever be adjusted. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[biostem]

2 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

We can probably all agree the intention was for Trick Arrows to work with other players... which is why I suggested each Trick Arrow having a gimmick that needs a specific element to set it off.  What I proposed was not a simple solution... but it's important to remember that the powerset really challenges the very bone structure of the game. If they can sort out Trick Arrow so it relies sufficiently on other players (Not also playing identical trick arrow builds) to shine, then I think they can even explore other similar debuff/offensive tilt defenders in the future. Or realize it's too much work to try that again. Either way... 

I fundamentally disagree.  The only "intention" that we can discern is that the set involves you firing various specialized arrows at enemies that do things.  Perhaps the devs originally envisioned TA as only being meant to work in conjunction with archery, (especially before the "no redraw" option).  Every set should stand on its own.  Sure, synergy or other beneficial interactions are nice, but not at the expense of the set as a whole.  As Redlynne mentioned several times, the focus on oil slick arrow and the inability to fully utilize it within the set itself, is just the tip of the ice berg, regarding the various buffs/tweaks the set needs.

[FDR's Think Tank]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

I fundamentally disagree.  The only "intention" that we can discern is that the set involves you firing various specialized arrows at enemies that do things.  Perhaps the devs originally envisioned TA as only being meant to work in conjunction with archery, (especially before the "no redraw" option).  Every set should stand on its own.  Sure, synergy or other beneficial interactions are nice, but not at the expense of the set as a whole.  As Redlynne mentioned several times, the focus on oil slick arrow and the inability to fully utilize it within the set itself, is just the tip of the ice berg, regarding the various buffs/tweaks the set needs.

I am surprised that anyone would disagree with what the Defender Archetype Role is... it's fairly clear. The Grey area has always been Trick Arrow, which had a short time of intense glory before the old Devs nerfed it into controversial oblivion.

 

I don't see synergy bonuses as being at the cost of the set when most people already agree the set is too weak. Anything that increases the utility of the set is of benefit and we really don't know how it will play out until it's done.

 

Except... don't we already know exactly how it will play out if we just give defenders more flat out power? They have plenty of other solo capable Archer builds now... So the question isn't if Trick Arrow needs improvement. The question is do they improve it so it's a blaster that gets Stamina Discounts when the team is low on health... or do they go more in depth and set it apart by highlighting the benefit of Defenders working with other players, as all other defender sets do already?

 

I wasn't saying that the set needs to be made weaker to make room for the combos. I was saying the combos would be largely added on top of a set that seems underpowered.

 

So the first step is to test the easy solution of changing Entanglement Arrow... If it gets the set closer to balance, then you can do a few small tweaks instead of something complex like more combo bonuses. However, if Electrified Net, or Healing Aura Net, or Some sort of rapid or mass entanglement arrow DOESN'T get Trick Arrow at least close to balanced.... What then? I don't think its worth it rebalancing the set so it's not such a slog at soloing without being absurd when used in tandem with other Trick Arrows. I don't think Trick Arrows should be given a hard limit on working with each other either, eliminating the ability to stack. If you focus on Synergies with other powersets, you are only lightly suggesting they team up with a variety of people.

 

Maybe the real solution for long term balance of powersets needs to be tied to Unique Enhancements that are tied to specific powersets, rather than origins. What if, rather than forcing all trick arrow players into a new meta, you gently give them a variety of options they can salvage, invent,  and discover for their arrows? If it worked, they could try balancing other powersets with different enhancement options too, giving players more variety in build choices.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Why is it not a weak set?

Might be the same reason you avoided responding to the other portion of that post.

 

I suppose I just see a difference between a set being weak and a set that is just moderate/middle of the road/mediocre.

 

25 minutes ago, biostem said:

...the focus on oil slick arrow and the inability to fully utilize it within the set itself, is just the tip of the ice berg, regarding the various buffs/tweaks the set needs.

But you can utilize it fully.

 

It really is no different from Vengeance or Fallout needing a dead ally to work.  Powersets have these variables because if they didn't they'd all perform very similar.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

It really is no different from Vengeance or Fallout needing a dead ally to work.  Powersets have these variables because if they didn't they'd all perform very similar.

Those fall into the "ally only" category that is prominent in other sets.  This isn't the same thing.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

I am surprised that anyone would disagree with what the Defender Archetype Role is... it's fairly clear. The Grey area has always been Trick Arrow, which had a short time of intense glory before the old Devs nerfed it into controversial oblivion.

You are missing the point.  And if you think that a group of all TA defenders can do things that a group of, say, rad ones can't do 10x better, then I don't think we're even playing the same game.  A defenders' only "role" is support/buff/debuff/healing + ranged damage.  Anything more than that is you projecting your thoughts or opinions of the AT onto them...

[Leogunner]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

Those fall into the "ally only" category that is prominent in other sets.  This isn't the same thing.

It's the same because they require a condition to execute.  It's not "ally only", it's "ally only" with the condition they are dead.  The dead part is the condition.

 

In the situation of Oilslick Arrow, the condition is "fire/energy damage" which is actually very easy to fulfill.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

It's the same because they require a condition to execute.  It's not "ally only", it's "ally only" with the condition they are dead.  The dead part is the condition.

 

In the situation of Oilslick Arrow, the condition is "fire/energy damage" which is actually very easy to fulfill.

Incorrect.  "Ally only" is a very common requirement among support/buff sets.  Can you name any other power that requires you deal a specific damage type to it, in order for it to work?

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Incorrect.  "Ally only" is a very common requirement among support/buff sets.  Can you name any other power that requires you deal a specific damage type to it, in order for it to work?

Can you use Fallout on a living ally?

[Bossk_Hogg]

19 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Might be the same reason you avoided responding to the other portion of that post.

 

I suppose I just see a difference between a set being weak and a set that is just moderate/middle of the road/mediocre.

 

But you can utilize it fully.

 

It really is no different from Vengeance or Fallout needing a dead ally to work.  Powersets have these variables because if they didn't they'd all perform very similar.

Fine. Four of it's first three powers are shit. A single target immobilize is next to worthless. An insulting 5% to hit debuff (aka, less than what dark blast inflicts). A crappy single target hold. Oh, and tac arrow's glue arrow is better. So right out of the gate, TA sucks, and sucks worse than a blaster secondary (tactical arrow). Tac Arrow also has a 90 second cooldown on its AE hold, vs the 5 friggin minute cooldown on trick arrow (that also debuffs your OWN recovery). 

 

Its by far the worst debuff set, with weak effects and long cooldowns. it spends more time, endurance, and power picks to do less than other debuff sets. If you want to argue otherwise, put up some numbers. But TA sucks about as hard as a support set can suck.  Do you have some skin in the game in not bringing it up to par with the rest of the defender primaries? If you're just gonna say "nuh uh, its mediocre" and think that's fine, we don't have much else to say to each other. You may as well go threadcrap in another post about how Ice Control, Energy Melee, or Traps don't need buffs. 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Can you use Fallout on a living ally?

Can you use any rez on a living ally?  Do you need said ally to be in a particular state of defeat, or does any sort of defeat work?  Do they need to have been defeated by a particular type of attack or damage type?

Edited October 16, 2019 by biostem

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

If you're just gonna say "nuh uh, its mediocre" and think that's fine, we don't have much else to say to each other.

That was replying to "being mediocre unless you have the combos required to bring your set up to snuff" part of another one of your posts which was on the topic of having synergy combos added to exceed its performance currently.  So in context, it's "mediocre until you make it better by utilizing the synergy".  How much of an improvement that avenue would grant has yet to be discussed because people are complaining they need an origin power every character can get to light Oilslick.

 

Imagine people complaining they need better inherent Stamina to be not weak...oh wait, they do...there are some even asking for inherent Hasten lol

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Can you use any rez on a living ally?  Do you need said ally to be in a particular state of defeat, or does any sort of defeat work?  Do they need to have been defeated by a particular type of attack or damage type?

So to answer my previous question, yes, Fallout requires not just an ally but an ally in a specific condition.

 

Your attempt to pivot my argument falls flat because I'm intentionally pointing out powers with conditions to use.  That includes self-rez, ally-rez, etc.  Powers play with these conditions intentionally to alter opportunity costs.  The higher the opportunity cost, the better the expected pay off.  It can be simple stuff like Phalanx Fighting giving a higher than average defense buff for a passive IF you have 3 allies standing close or SR passives giving you cumulatively over 40% resistance but requires you to be at low health.

 

Oilslick Arrow's condition is quite mild though.

 

Anyone here ever watch the anime HunterXHunter?  It's one of the oldschool anime that handles things like power level and conditions quite well...better than most anime I've watch.

[Bossk_Hogg]

17 hours ago, Leogunner said:

That was replying to "being mediocre unless you have the combos required to bring your set up to snuff" part of another one of your posts which was on the topic of having synergy combos added to exceed its performance currently.  So in context, it's "mediocre until you make it better by utilizing the synergy".  How much of an improvement that avenue would grant has yet to be discussed because people are complaining they need an origin power every character can get to light Oilslick.

 

Imagine people complaining they need better inherent Stamina to be not weak...oh wait, they do...there are some even asking for inherent Hasten lol

 

 

Which was in response to the suggestion to make the powerset MORE dependent on combos, which is harder to code and balance than just making the powers better by themselves.  And requires speific rotations to work. I don't like being told what order to use my powers. One of the reasons why I dislike dual blades.

 

Given that anyone already can light the slick with taser/apprentice charm, this does seem an odd hill to die on opposing what amounts to a QOL feature by adding some energy damage to disruption arrow. 

[FDR's Think Tank]

Giving the set more synergies doesn't make it "MORE" dependent on combos. It makes it less dependent on desperately needing a BUFF. It's not particularly good right now and it doesn't even have anything beyond ONE combo. So I would rather have a set more dependent on combos that works than a set that everyone agrees is underpowered and reliant on people tolerating a person who stubbornly plays it.

 

A team of Rad Defenders being better at every aspect than a Team of Trick Arrow Defenders simply highlights how nerfed Trick Arrow is. It doesn't prove that combos aren't the ultimate solution to making the set exciting to play. It doesn't force you to play in a specific order to give it more synergies (Unless you add the optional Fire melting Ice... which was only one suggestion.) What it DOES do is give OTHER team members opportunities to interact with what a Trick Arrow Defender is doing... meaning that combat isn't a grindy slog of just targeting the same stuff over and over. It gives players more options about how they interact with the world. That's why Oil Arrow keeps bringing people in, despite the set being really weak. It's FUN to play with. Trick Arrow could be about setting up opportunities for Teamwork that everyone enjoys...

 

Again, I encourage them to playtest raw powerups first for the set. However, even if you ignore what is fun... I doubt a raw powerup will be a good solution. There is a reason the nerfing happened in the first place. They underestimated a pure debuff defender. Yes, yes, they haven't done anything about Radiation... but I don't think this thread is about Radiation being overpowered or needing to be nerfed.

 

I have to ask, if repairing Trick Arrow is so simple, how come they never got around to it? What possible reason could they have had for nerfing the set to begin with?

[Zepp]

The arguments about Trick Arrow as a Defender set seem to ignore that it is also a Mastermind and Controller set. When making suggestions, it would be a good idea to think about it across all three ATs.

[FDR's Think Tank]

Do the sets have to be exactly the same, or is there room for variation as necessary between Archetypes?

 

Defender Trick Arrow was nerfed long before it was given to Masterminds and Controllers as a Secondary. You can probably leave it alone as a secondary to the other Archetypes, I haven't seen Masterminds complaining their first Secondary power is Useless Net Arrow... they have pets that can all take advantage of situations created by the net. The Defender Doesn't. Many Controllers have similar "footlockers". Even if you were going to argue that as a Secondary, Trick Arrow is lacking... the Balance Solution for a Primary probably shouldn't be exactly the same as for a secondary.

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 10/18/2019 at 12:58 AM, Zepp said:

The arguments about Trick Arrow as a Defender set seem to ignore that it is also a Mastermind and Controller set. When making suggestions, it would be a good idea to think about it across all three ATs.

Four. It's also a corrupter set, which really serves to highlight just HOW BAD the set is. You're a shitty /Tac Arrow blaster for most of your levels.

 

Yay! I traded away half my damage, massive sustain, build up, hold protection, innate recharge, and debuff resistance for oil slick arrow! Sure, blasters can get a better version of that in Bonefire...  But that's OK, my flash arrow has a 0.1% better debuff (not joking here btw)!

 

Oh, and Tac arrow has 

Damage on Net Arrow

Damage on Glue Arrow AND 3/4 the recharge of TA's glue arrow

Tac Arrow's Ice Arrow deals damage, recharges in 12 seconds vs 18, and lasts almost 3 seconds longer

Tac Arrow's AE hold recharges in 90 seconds vs 300, and doesn't debuff your OWN recovery.

 

5 of the 9 powers in Trick Arrow are WORSE or the same on Tac Arrow. This set really is indefensible in its current state.

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 10/18/2019 at 7:49 PM, FDR's Think Tank said:

Do the sets have to be exactly the same, or is there room for variation as necessary between Archetypes?

 

Defender Trick Arrow was nerfed long before it was given to Masterminds and Controllers as a Secondary. You can probably leave it alone as a secondary to the other Archetypes, I haven't seen Masterminds complaining their first Secondary power is Useless Net Arrow... they have pets that can all take advantage of situations created by the net. The Defender Doesn't. Many Controllers have similar "footlockers". Even if you were going to argue that as a Secondary, Trick Arrow is lacking... the Balance Solution for a Primary probably shouldn't be exactly the same as for a secondary.

TA is bad on MM's too. I think they just accepted that their first power is usually garbage. Plus there's like 12 of them total. Net Arrow is bad and should feel bad. It's skipped by almost everyone who can avoid it. About the only power selected less are the scrapper single target taunts.

 

TA is bad for everyone, it's just more apparent on defenders and corrupters.

[FDR's Think Tank]

32 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

TA is bad on MM's too. I think they just accepted that their first power is usually garbage. Plus there's like 12 of them total. Net Arrow is bad and should feel bad. It's skipped by almost everyone who can avoid it. About the only power selected less are the scrapper single target taunts.

 

TA is bad for everyone, it's just more apparent on defenders and corrupters.

I hadn't even realized it was on Corrupters... I just came back, so I am still catching up to some of the changes they seem to have bootstrapped in. It's nice having more flexibility, but they really should balance the set before unloading it on other archetypes. However, this drives home my point on Combos, I think. City of Heroes already started down the path of Combos being a support option and regardless of the difficulty to code, I think it has serious merit. I don't really see the combos requiring you to play your powers in a specific order... if a teammate (or you) can activate the combo, perhaps there might be a prime time to ignite it... but that's more target timing than order you activate your powers. Moreover, the Trick Arrow defender can develop his own order of play, and anyone who CAN participate in combo is free to choose IF they do so. I think, once people realize they can combine effects to create something spectacular, they will fight for the chance to do so.

 

I think you have one VERY big obstacle to get over if you simply Re-buff the Debuffs of TA back to pre-nerfing or to some new standard. I will always look at it from a Defender Standpoint, because to me, Trick Arrow was a Defender Unique set, the way Illusion Control is unique to Controllers. The only reason they gave it to Masterminds was because they didn't really need to change anything since Masterminds could mostly ignore the secondary powers and focus on their primary and power pools. I am shocked they gave it to controllers, who have better options and no good redraw reasons to even have a bow.... and it's pathetic for Corrupters for the same reasons you mentioned already.

 

While each of these 3 late comer sets would obviously love a straight buff and it wouldn't really change their playstyle drastically... The TA Defender still ends up being a Reverse Blaster. While teams don't typically seek to keep "The Holy Trinity" of DPS, Tank, and Heals/Buffs... it's not like a team that is seeking a defender is thrilled to get TA, nor is a team that wants a blaster going to ask for TA Defenders first... or even second or third anymore, with Corruptors and Sentinels about. Game Balance isn't just about making sure things aren't useless or brokenly overpowered. There is also a factor that City of Heroes highlights more than other MMOs... and that is how does the set mesh with the team, how does the team view the teammate and their contributions. If we are looking just at that, then why even WASTE time fixing TA Defenders? Why not just leave it as a set for RPers and Masochists and tell more serious people to make an Arrow Blaster with TAC Arrows?

 

I can think of plenty of MMO's that are perfectly happy having weird/weak/uncompetitive classes for players to choose from, especially when they offer a robust list of options for players to try. In this case, it's not technically a player class, it's just a lackluster powerset that has functional representation elsewhere. This is about PASSION, not practicality at this point, right? This is an Arrow Savants Romance... and nothing brings it out more than combos.

 

As to no other defender requiring specific damage types to fully show their power... this is true. In fact, no other class requires that. However, Defenders are supposed to shine with teammates. When you give your teammates a way to work with you a way to depend on you, you are filling the prime role of a Defender. It's really a neat reversal, in some ways, since the Defender typically interacts with his allies instead, switching targets as needed. In this, it would give allies a reason to take a swipe at some fun opportunity. If the damage type limitation is such an issue, they can add IO Enhancements for Arrow Blasting that give it triggers for those combos, letting a wealthy Arrow Defender to accomplish the combos on his own. I see no reason not to take the time to do it, certainly not after they do the playtesting again and likely determine they are dissatisfied with how the TA Defender Set handles pure direct Buffing. I refuse to believe if it was as simple as a set wide buff or addition of DoT to one or two powers they wouldn't have just done it. TA was discussed an absurd amount back then, may have been debated even when people weren't playing, and here we are 2019.... still passionate about Trick Arrow Defenders, specifically. Sure, the other 3 Archetype Trick Arrow sets need work, but the Primary focus is Defenders.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Trick Arrow was introduced for defenders/controllers in Issue 5, ported to masterminds in issue 6, and corrupters in issue 16. I saw a few other posts saying it was nerfed, but to my recollection, it never was when it made it off the test server. It was actually in an even worse position when it was released... as here are the changes made in I6.

 

• Several changes have been made to the Defender, Controller and Mastermind Trick Arrow sets:
  • Added 0.1 Slow effect to Entangling Arrow.
  • Changed Flash Arrow to Auto Hit in PvE. In PvP, a to hit check is still required.
  • Glue Arrow recharge time cut by 50% to 60 seconds.
  • Glue Arrow now has a -Fly component.
  • Disruption Arrow recharge time cut by 50% to 60 seconds.
• Fixed an issue where Entangling arrow could be escaped, despite its -Fly component, by jumping/flying out of it.
• Oil Slick Arrow should no longer have the odd failure to ignite condition.
• The Oil Slick Target should be easier to hit now.
• Fixed a bug with Oil Slick Arrow - it was erroneously showing a -SPD debuff on the caster.
• Fixed some issues with Poison Gas Arrow (Mastermind, Defender and Controller). All versions will now choke the targets more often, will play the proper visual f/x and will affect the proper area. The PvP aspect of the Controller version has been fixed (it was not working against players at all.)

 

It was pure garbage when released, but has managed to claw it's way to being only "fairly bad" now, no thanks to the gimp power brigade, who voraciously defended it even back when Glue Arrow and Disruption Arrow had 2 minute cooldowns. 

 

Defenders and Corrupters have the exact same issues with TA, it's just highlighted most on corrupters. They're essentially the same AT anyways, with reversed access to powers. Corrs have a smidge less debuffs, and a tiny amount more damage. Solo they're more or less the same (ie, terrible), with the vigilance on defenders making up for the slightly higher base damage on the corrupter. On full teams, the debuff difference is a rounding error once you factor in level based resists. So any change needs to help them, both (and not help controllers more).

 

The simplest way to do this is to up the debuff numbers, lower cooldowns, and add more debuff effects, as those benefit the two support AT's the most. The set really needs - regen, - special, and -max HP (currently only found in the degenerative hybrid).