New Epic Archetype?

[That Ninja]

Hey all, I've been seeing a lot of discussion about new archetypes with possible power set combinations in a lot of threads. There's a good deal of debate about how sets like buffing, assault, and manipulation will jell with one another in trying to make new iterations feasible. One thing I thought of is what if they tried testing this out with a new epic archetype? Epic archetypes are much more boilerplate with their power set choices, but they are the only archetypes that can really pick and choose differing ability types to fill out those power sets.

 

For example, I've seen some examples of a possible "zoomer" or "speedster" archetype and whether they would use assault and manipulation or some other set. What if instead they made a "speedster" epic archetype with the same mentality of a kheldian or soldier of arachnos, picking and choosing which powers would encompass the more limited power sets, like filling it out with melee or ranged and giving some defense abilities or debuffs. Like how kehlds have inherent fly or teleport, they could have inherent super speed and perhaps reuse the flurry and other attack animations sped up and perhaps and comparable control abilities to show buffing friendly speed or slowing enemy movement.

 

I know during live epic archetypes were meant to be more lore heavy, but I never felt like they really met that expectation, instead filling a specific niche that was hard to replicate with any of the other general archetypes (for instance I play a peacebringer to play up the "cosmic hero" concept). A speedster is a pretty specific concept in comics and media, while some characters can move at super speed in addition to their other powers, I believe almost every has a platonic idea when they think of a "super speed hero" (The Flashes and family, Quicksilver, Cyborg 009). I think possible new epic archetypes could be a nice test bed in balancing new concepts and powerset interactions in a more controlled manner.

[Zepp]

I've compiled most Archetypes proposed. Thus far there has been one proposed Epic Archetype. I think the reason for this is the sandbox nature of CoH. Creating an AT that is very limited in power choices is not as enticing. With the "Zoomer" archetype I was trying to find a way to merge two underused powersets into a new AT. The inherent was designed as a way to get around the limitations of this combination while encouraging the melee/range nature of Assault. I wouldn't want to limit that to a limited set of powers because that would limit the range of the AT.

 

Yes, it may be possible to make a really cool new Epic Archetype. That being said, I think that regular ATs tend to be more versatile and popular.

[molten_dragon]

Epic archetypes tend to have unique powers and mechanics.  That means developing completely new powers, potentially with new art assets and animations.  That's a lot more work than just making a new archetype out of already existing assets the way the Sentinel was created.

[That Ninja]

15 hours ago, molten_dragon said:

Epic archetypes tend to have unique powers and mechanics.  That means developing completely new powers, potentially with new art assets and animations.  That's a lot more work than just making a new archetype out of already existing assets the way the Sentinel was created.

Sentinels have completely new mechanics compared to old ATs (and is going through more revisions) and all the existing Epic Archetypes reuse animations from other powersets in the game. Sentinels have a long way to being finely tuned like other ATs because of the new mechanics interacting with varying powersets and combinations, I just think that working off of an epic archetype that only has to consider a primary and secondary powerset and how they interact with each other would be a good test bed towards fulfilling a niche concept that an entire AT with new mechanics and numerous powerset interactions would.

[molten_dragon]

10 hours ago, That Ninja said:

Sentinels have completely new mechanics compared to old ATs (and is going through more revisions) and all the existing Epic Archetypes reuse animations from other powersets in the game. Sentinels have a long way to being finely tuned like other ATs because of the new mechanics interacting with varying powersets and combinations, I just think that working off of an epic archetype that only has to consider a primary and secondary powerset and how they interact with each other would be a good test bed towards fulfilling a niche concept that an entire AT with new mechanics and numerous powerset interactions would.

Yes, sentinels have new mechanics.  But they also have a huge number of powersets to choose from.  And epic ATs re-use some animations, but at the time they came out they had entirely unique animations, mechanics, and costume pieces (Buttcapes and crab backpacks were unique to VEATs when they came out, and the Kheldian forms required new art and animations).  If you want to build a new Epic AT that's going to feel truly unique and different like the existing ones, they'll need something like that too.  Otherwise you've just created a new archetype cobbled together out of existing pieces, and if you're going to do that, why limit it to a single powerset choice?

[FDR's Think Tank]

With the Epic Archetype, isn't it enough to simply expand the Primary and Secondary Power Pools So that there is at least 2 separate playstyles possible depending on power choices? The other possibility for a Speedster Archetype is to give them a larger autoproc range for their melee attacks... when they activate... say... a punch, they automatically teleport (which looks like superspeed vanishing and reappearing) next to the target and strike.

 

With this you could sorta see two types of speedsters... One runs up and unloads melee attacks on his foe in rapid succession, then runs back to a safe distance to wait for the recharge on his strikes. The other dances around hitting one foe, then another, then another... teleporting/super speeding all over the battlefield... luring the foes into some sort of trap, be it constructed, teamwork ambush, or environmental. If the speedster is caught off guard recharging or slowed/stopped on the battlefield... their glass jaw will get them in relatively deep trouble.

 

This somewhat solves the issue of the super speed set actually requiring the player to be able to cognitively make choices while moving super fast in game... They can still have a fast run speed travel power, but it wouldn't be necessary or even practical for actual combat. The superspeed "movement" is built into their attack powers, giving them some benefits of ranged for melee strikes, but putting them in danger as they draw aggro and try to keep dodging incoming strikes. AoE hits would be a weakness for the speedster.... if the enemy can time it well. Perhaps One Speedster build would have a certain amount of "Autododges" before they aren't able to react and dodge AoE strikes (This would then take actual resting to recharge.) The other build would focus on moving around too much to get caught in a blast.  You could call these each "The Prodigy" and "The Jester" style Speedsters, respectively.

 

 

Edit: On further Speculation, I thought up two different sorts of Speedsters, but they would need a different inherent from the "The Prodigy" and "The Jester" style. In a way, these are dashers and crashers. These types could use unique AoE effects that create a zone based on how or where they move. It would be sort of like the Tron Bikes... a chasing effect.

 

The First one, the crasher or... "The Bullet" would have a Defensive/Disruptive area in a tight area around him and following him. The longer he runs, the more potent the effect until he builds up enough charge to activate an Alpha Strike "Crash" ability that zeros out the momentum and deals great damage in an AoE strike. "The Bullet" would then need to duke it out with survivors... or escape and try to get another ambush in. 

 

The Second one, the dasher... or "The Train" would be able to set different damage types that their dash aura generates... anyone they run by or that gets caught in their trail will take damage over time that scales to how long "The Train" has been dashing. If someone manages to knock "The Train" down or away, it's momentum is killed and it's damage aura vanishes. They have to rely on their basic attacks or attempt to escape and start their dash again.

 

Both of these Archetypes generate momentum as they move, and they both would be constantly draining their endurance, needing to find places to take a breather between battles. However, The Bullet is nearly unstoppable until they choose to strike and fairs better in melee combat when out of momentum... While The Train has more consistent damage during momentum and dreads being stopped.

 

I don't see how The Prodigy, The Jester, The Bullet, and The Train could share an Archetype, but it would be awesome if they could. Maybe the fork is when they get their inherent since there are basically two major types here.

 

Obviously, I don't really see the point in a speedster archetype with purely long ranged attacks.... you can run a blaster with travel power speed if you want that. The Speedsters in the comics get close and personal, risking themselves while playing fast and loose. They don't have time to aim a shot.

Edited October 14, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Zepp]

Just for reference, a lot of this thread is going back to my original thread:

 

Zoomer (19.07.25.22.56.xx)

Manipulation/Assault

Zoom: Personal +SPD for ranged, enemy -SPD for melee, and increased speed cap.

Zoomers offer the feel of playing a speedster while providing access to two AT-specific power sets that are versatile an fun.

 

This addressed the issues of making the feel of a speedster by increasing the base speed and speed cap, and adding ±Spd procs to attacks. This allowed greater freedom of movement while decreasing the speed of enemies allowed you to feel even more relatively fast. Thinking back I might remove the +Spd, and put a -Spd/-Rchg aura that tics fairly rapidly, is non-stacking, and has a 10-15s duration. (holes in the Manipulation sets caused by crossover would be filled with control or support powers).

I think this offers a more practical and playable solution that provides a variety of player choices rather than relying on a one-trick pony playstyle mechanic.

[MTeague]

Keep in mind the amount of coding, and artwork, needed for any new powersets, much less characters based around entirely new mechanics. 

Keep in mind resources vs man-hours. 

 

I mean, OK,, on one hand, sure, Dream Big.  Nothing wrong with having an "in an ideal world" list out there.

But I would temper expectations around reality, at LEAST until they can manage to get formal "you're legit" papers from NCSoft.

[biostem]

On 10/6/2019 at 3:53 AM, That Ninja said:

Hey all, I've been seeing a lot of discussion about new archetypes with possible power set combinations in a lot of threads. There's a good deal of debate about how sets like buffing, assault, and manipulation will jell with one another in trying to make new iterations feasible. One thing I thought of is what if they tried testing this out with a new epic archetype? Epic archetypes are much more boilerplate with their power set choices, but they are the only archetypes that can really pick and choose differing ability types to fill out those power sets.

 

For example, I've seen some examples of a possible "zoomer" or "speedster" archetype and whether they would use assault and manipulation or some other set. What if instead they made a "speedster" epic archetype with the same mentality of a kheldian or soldier of arachnos, picking and choosing which powers would encompass the more limited power sets, like filling it out with melee or ranged and giving some defense abilities or debuffs. Like how kehlds have inherent fly or teleport, they could have inherent super speed and perhaps reuse the flurry and other attack animations sped up and perhaps and comparable control abilities to show buffing friendly speed or slowing enemy movement.

 

I know during live epic archetypes were meant to be more lore heavy, but I never felt like they really met that expectation, instead filling a specific niche that was hard to replicate with any of the other general archetypes (for instance I play a peacebringer to play up the "cosmic hero" concept). A speedster is a pretty specific concept in comics and media, while some characters can move at super speed in addition to their other powers, I believe almost every has a platonic idea when they think of a "super speed hero" (The Flashes and family, Quicksilver, Cyborg 009). I think possible new epic archetypes could be a nice test bed in balancing new concepts and powerset interactions in a more controlled manner.

What makes "speedsters" different, storywise, than any other existing AT that could potentially utilize extreme speed to their advantage?  Kheldians and SoAs have specific story-based reasons for their existence, and in the case of Kheldians, very different powers.  I suppose this could work if they created a series of storylines to explain how such speedsters differ from any other characters, but we don't have ATs that focus so much on 1 particular aspect of their physicality.  As a primary set, to go along with SR, sure, but a whole new AT isn't needed...

[That Ninja]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

What makes "speedsters" different, storywise, than any other existing AT that could potentially utilize extreme speed to their advantage?  Kheldians and SoAs have specific story-based reasons for their existence, and in the case of Kheldians, very different powers.  I suppose this could work if they created a series of storylines to explain how such speedsters differ from any other characters, but we don't have ATs that focus so much on 1 particular aspect of their physicality.  As a primary set, to go along with SR, sure, but a whole new AT isn't needed...

Well I guess they could mirror how speedsters in DC are basically an extended family due to their connection to the Speed Force. Like all the Flashes, Impulses, Zooms, Johnny Quick, Jesse Quick, Max Mercury, and numerous others all share this link and powers. During some points in comic history Superman could keep up with the Flash, but theres a difference between Superman being a hero with super speed and the Flash who is a "speedster". They could use the story to take a look at speedsters in current Paragon City and past, with having story arcs featuring Synapse or look back at (or if they want to get bold, time travel featuring) Breakneck from the comics and statue in King's Row.

 

As for powers, they could keep it simple by reusing ideas from other powersets, like buff allies with speed, debuffing enemies with speed reduction, defense based on speed, playing with recharge rates, quick attacks, etc. and if they want to be brave they could try adding a movement buff where your abilities' potency increase by how much you move around (capped of course) and perhaps even have an ability that works as a break free to reduce immobilizes during fights.

Edited October 15, 2019 by That Ninja

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

What makes "speedsters" different, storywise, than any other existing AT that could potentially utilize extreme speed to their advantage?  Kheldians and SoAs have specific story-based reasons for their existence, and in the case of Kheldians, very different powers.  I suppose this could work if they created a series of storylines to explain how such speedsters differ from any other characters, but we don't have ATs that focus so much on 1 particular aspect of their physicality.  As a primary set, to go along with SR, sure, but a whole new AT isn't needed...

I can't speak for this proposal, but my proposal was utilizing underused powersets with speed as an inherent to make them work by allowing players to use positioning for defensive purposes.