How to fix Sentinels

[drbuzzard]

Ok, I've given this a good bit of thought. I have a bunch of sentinels at 50, and recently took a blaster up for the sake of contrast.

 

Right now the sentinel is a bit lacking, not seriously gimpy or anything, but a bit lacking as it amount to being the lowest DPS of the DPS classes. It really does need a bit of help. Mind you I still enjoy playing them, as they fill a superhero niche which needed to be filled, but I think the general consensus says they need help.

 

However how do we do this? Right now the sentinel has the opportunity inherent which serves to given minor buffs (depending on version used), a single target resistance debuff of fair value (20%) and every attack applies a -5% resistance debuff as well (not sure how this stacks). Even with these abilities their damage lags well behind a blaster (or scrapper, or stalker, or brute, though worse for a blaster).

 

OK, first off just about everyone recognizes that the inherent is lacking. It pegs you into taking the first two powers, even if one of them is sub par (to be able to full exercise the inherent power), and the effect while apparently according to Captain Powerhouse was meant to give feast or famine damage output, merely takes you out of famine and only against one target. This means you have the DPS class with the 2nd worst defenses doing the least damage (though this is not precise as the armor sets are different on sentinels than elsewhere, but the .7 modifier is what I'm basing this on).

 

So what do we do? I've seen CP mention that he'd like to see Sentinels doing scrapper level damage. Now I suppose you could do that by taking the damage scalar to 1.0 and giving them crits, but that would just seem to be copycatting (as it is used on both stalkers and scrappers). You could have a damage buff built up by attacking, but that is also currently in use by brutes and blasters. I'd say we need something different. Right now the Sentinel provides utility to a team via their debuffs in addition to their DPS (which is a bit sub par now). How about instead of copying a current solution from DPS classes, we go a different way. Go all in on resistance debuff for the class and simplify opportunity to just a 10% resistance debuff in all attacks which stacks up to, say, 50% (done by debuff expiration, rather than a stacking cap so multiple sentinels will stack together rather than not adding). While this sounds like a lot, it's a rare team fighting even level opponents and the purple patch cuts into debuffs pretty severely. I'd say also make the damage scalar 1.0.

This will give a completely different feel to the class as it probes for weaknesses on enemies and the whole team can then exploit them. It also would give a different feel in that all fights will have them scaling up gradually in effectiveness no matter if you rush from group to group. Right now brutes and blasters are inclined to rush along to keep fury/defiance up. Stalkers and scappers are spiky in damage due to crits, but it is 'consistent' as not dependent on building things up (though Stalkers do have some of this). It will also not be as big a deal on solo play since the rate of damage scaling up and be adjusted to get to where you want the kill speed to be.

 

Oh, also I don't really see why sentinels get the .7 defense modifier other than baggage from the original devs belief that range is a defense in and of itself (though while that may have been the case in i0-1 which was city of blasters- they then added a bunch of things to make it not the case). Their defense values should be tuned to be in line with the other DPS defensive classes at .75 which really isn't much of a tweak.

 

So to sum up, ditch opportunity as is. Give the class a damage scalar of 1.0 (vs. .95 as current), and increase the resistance debuff on each attack to around 10% that will be tuned to stack to around 50%. Adjust the defensive values to .75 from .7 on armors.

 

The debuff number should be tested to find a proper value, but I'm just throwing 50% out there because it will still put stalkers behind blasters with a good head of defiance (which couples with their higher scalar).

 

Oh also, the ATOs will have to be adjusted. You can keep the sentinels ward proc (though it is rather weak). Perhaps had in a resistance buff at low health one like on one of the tanker sets. Also as there are a lot of resistance sentinel armor sets (more than defense), it would probably be a good idea to have the ATOs include some resistance bonuses.

 

[Erratic1]

Late response, but Resistance Debuff is the realm of Defenders and Corruptors. So your proposal would step on their feet with neither of those ATs dealing Blaster level damage nor having the inherent survivability of Sentinels. Seems a bit unfair.

 

 

[drbuzzard]

They already do resistance debuff. Heck, everyone with sonic does resistance debuff. Of course Masterminds and Controllers also do resistance debuff, as do Soldiers of Arachnos.

 

Resistance debuff is by no means exclusive to those 2 ATs, and I suggest this just so we could have a different feel to a power up. I'm OK with just buffing the heck out of their damage as well, but it wouldn't be very unique.

[Rathulfr]

The proposal is reasonable.  It think we can all agree on the 1.0 base damage modifier and 0.75 caps on armor, to bring them in line with all other ATs.

 

However, I'd propose that the Sentinel's inherent should not only debuff a target's resistance, but also debuff defense to a minor degree: maybe 5-10%, non-stacking.  Perhaps also a team buff for perception, to counteract To-Hit debuffs and/or Blind.  All of this would tie into the idea of a Sentinel providing insight in an opponent's location and weaknesses.

 

[Erratic1]

Specific sets on all ATs traipse across role lines, sure. With proper power set choice one can make a controllery blaster or a buffy controller, or whatever. That is wholly different from implementing an AT-wide mechanism which tramples on what another AT does.

 

And at the point where Sentinels get Scrapper level damage, which is what Blasters are supposed to have in exchange for weak survivability, what is the point in having Blasters...longer range?

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

The proposal is reasonable.  It think we can all agree on the 1.0 base damage modifier and 0.75 caps on armor, to bring them in line with all other ATs.

 

However, I'd propose that the Sentinel's inherent should not only debuff a target's resistance, but also debuff defense to a minor degree: maybe 5-10%, non-stacking.  Perhaps also a team buff for perception, to counteract To-Hit debuffs and/or Blind.  All of this would tie into the idea of a Sentinel providing insight in an opponent's location and weaknesses.

 

 

Why not give them radial healing around the target and themselves too? Oh, and have them buff all friendly units within 255' range with extra damage, resistance, and defense? And while we're at it, Sentinels should spawn pets with each attack (which die upon zoning...wouldn't want to get out of hand).

[Doomguide2005]

I think my sarcasm meter is busted.  It has pinned itself to the red zone and just twitches occasionally.

[MTeague]

My Sentinel is only lvl 29, so, probably not a fair trial yet.  

But so far, I don't feel the need for them to be fixed/buffed at all. 

I wouldn't turn it DOWN but... okay their DPS is lower. Big woot. It's not horrible, and it's not like you can't do anything with them.

[Rathulfr]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Why not give them radial healing around the target and themselves too? Oh, and have them buff all friendly units within 255' range with extra damage, resistance, and defense? And while we're at it, Sentinels should spawn pets with each attack (which die upon zoning...wouldn't want to get out of hand).

 

+1 to this. 

That would almost bring Sentinels up to parity with Titan Weapons/Bio Armor Brutes.

😉

 

(In case your sense of humor module is malfunctioning: I'm kidding.)

 

[drbuzzard]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Specific sets on all ATs traipse across role lines, sure. With proper power set choice one can make a controllery blaster or a buffy controller, or whatever. That is wholly different from implementing an AT-wide mechanism which tramples on what another AT does.

 

And at the point where Sentinels get Scrapper level damage, which is what Blasters are supposed to have in exchange for weak survivability, what is the point in having Blasters...longer range?

Every controller and mastermind has a buff/debuff secondary. Every single one. I would guess over half of those sets are capable of resistance debuff. That's not a matter of specific sets any more than claiming corrupters and defenders are those who do resistance debuff (after all, it's the same damned sets). 

 

Your claim that my suggestion is an 'AT-wide mechanism which tramples on what another AT does' is completely false on it's face. It does what almost everyone but the melee ATs do (blasters and doms being the exception) and that includes sentinels as they currently exist. You did notice the current inherent debuffing enemies resistance didn't you? 

 

As for the AT getting 'scrapper level damage' that is a quote from Captain Powerhouse, not my suggestion. My idea was a way in which to implement it. A valid argument against my point might be that it makes sentinels too team friendly, but that tends to be something the devs have shot for over the life of the game (when it was live).

 

As for blasters, I'm curious, have you played one recently? They do simply preposterous damage. They have the highest damage scalar coupled with basically a fury like mechanism in defiance. If your blaster is not running in combat at 100% damage boost most of the time, you're doing it wrong. Then with aim+buildup the damage spikes can be simply insane. 

 

Yes, on pylon tests scrappers are way up there (titan weapon of course, which is an actual issue of specific sets) because the tests are also measures of survivability. It would be interesting to see a pure DPS measure of blaster designed to just go all out, without the sacrifices that high end blasters make for survivability. My blaster does crazy damage, and he's built without too much survivability concerns, but he's also not really as optimal as he could be (BR/dev) so I doubt he'd be setting any records. 

 

[drbuzzard]

7 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Why not give them radial healing around the target and themselves too? Oh, and have them buff all friendly units within 255' range with extra damage, resistance, and defense? And while we're at it, Sentinels should spawn pets with each attack (which die upon zoning...wouldn't want to get out of hand).

You think his extremely small thematic suggestions are excessive? I mean, you don't like my stuff, but he's suggesting stuff which is there for flavor and does approximately nothing. I guess you just think any suggestion is a bad one, and they should stay as they are. That is a place where below lvl 32, the AT is basically just gimpy for damage, and post 32 is basically a one trick pony, which isn't the greatest trick out there, but it as least OK. They are OK soloists, if a touch slow, and are fine on PUGs. I don't imagine a Sentinel would be getting a sniff of an invite to an optimized team as is. 

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Every controller and mastermind has a buff/debuff secondary. Every single one. I would guess over half of those sets are capable of resistance debuff. That's not a matter of specific sets any more than claiming corrupters and defenders are those who do resistance debuff (after all, it's the same damned sets). 

Yes, that is what they were designed to have. And in exchange for their controls and buffs/debuffs they get crappy damage. What precise downside do you want to give Sentinels for top level damage, second best defenses and now, at your suggestion, debuffing?

 

I literally (as in your reply notification made  bleep) just soloed Protean with a level 23 Sentinel. Of the 40 characters I have, each of which I invariably do the Protean arc with (excepting the two controllers because that would be exercise in frustration) I have precisely two others who have done it--a Reflexes Tank and a Mastermind. The Reflexes Tank relied on not getting hit and even then had to retreat twice and rest up to do it. The Mastermind ran out of pets once, got put down, and managed by summoning pets, waiting for cooldowns to reset so as to be able to resummons during the fight as needed, and then facing Protean. The Sentinel? One pass, no retreats, popped 4 Respites. Its as cake walk as I've ever done against an AV at that level. All I had to do was stay in constant motion (so much for the notion that range is not a defense you were putting out) and between good damage, healing, and an absorption shield it was not a problem. The controllers, defenders, and corruptors of the world? They would have been in for a world of hurt.

 

I would agree Sentinels need to bring more to a team. Debuffs do not strike me as that something they need to be bringing.

 

Quote

As for blasters, I'm curious, have you played one recently? They do simply preposterous damage. They have the highest damage scalar coupled with basically a fury like mechanism in defiance. If your blaster is not running in combat at 100% damage boost most of the time, you're doing it wrong. Then with aim+buildup the damage spikes can be simply insane. 

 

 

There's the level 50 blaster I just finished levelling last week. Yes, Blasters do mondo damage. Something about glass cannon. It does not take much going wrong for a blaster to face plant.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Erratic1

[oldskool]

20 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

but also debuff defense to a minor degree: maybe 5-10%, non-stacking. 

Doesn't the inherent already apply a very small non-stacking resistance and defense debuff all the time?  I can't check at the moment to confirm, but I thought it did.  The big -20% debuff is attached as a single target effect from the T1/T2 after filling the bar, but pretty sure there are is a mini-me version attached to all attacks on the AT. 

[drbuzzard]

Range is only a defense in some cases where the encounters were designed to be tricky based on the assumption that only melee characters would have good defenses. Protean is one of those of course. If you're dealing with a more ranged focused AV, that advantage evaporates immediately. Incarnate content has a lot more ranged hazards, and only very optimized sentinels can do the properly crazy stuff in there (and by crazy stuff, I mean charge a spawn solo and expect to come out on your feet, things I can do with my brutes, stalkers, and tanks- I don't play scrappers much). 

 

I think why we see things differently is two primarily things:

A) I team almost always. On a team, the soloing strength of sentinels meals approximately nil. Sure you are low maintenance, but you are also low upside. At least once you get past 32 and a fast recharging nuke, you finally contribute at least some decent damage, but before that you offer diddly to teams other than a 24% resistance buff against a single target maybe half the time (4% otherwise). PUGs aren't picky, and they don't really notice that sentinels don't really kick in much right now. Solo is completely different since it's your own pace, being mediocre on damage while still survivable means very little. 

 

B) I worry more about endgame, and range really stops being a defense at that point. Sure there are still some enemies which are much more dangerous in melee, but by and large, range is little defense (incarnate is loaded with ranged nastiness). For the ride up, sentinels are definitely more easy than blasters because you won't be dying a lot, and soloing is not hard. However at the endgame, fully tuned blasters are quite survivable and the damage gap is huge. 

 

As for 'giving sentinels top level damage' well they are supposed to be a DPS class. What are they supposed to contribute otherwise? Looking pretty? Being able to run away? Right now sentinels are a sometimes contributor to teams via debuffs, and the rest of the time peck away with mediocre damage. 

 

But I think really where you miss the 400 lbs gorilla in the corner, is asking 'what is the downside' when it already exists and that gorilla ain't a stalker. This game is ruled by AOE. Your ability to reap rewards (exp, infl, and drops) is directly related (not correlated, directly related) to how many targets you can put down in a given amount of time. AOE is king, and single target is just a commoner. Sentinels have severe AOE caps and it has been made explicit that when they get some buffs, those caps will remain in place. There's your downside. It's not a trivial one by any means. This is why I say sentinels really only get good after 32 because the fast recharging T9 nukes are the only great AOE strength the class has, and even that has a 10 target cap. 

 

My suggestion, when you think about it, won't mean jack squat for your ability to clear maps quickly. That's why I think it might have some appeal with the powers that be. It seems they want sentinels to not be crazy farmers, and getting resistance debuff stacked up bit by bit won't help with blowing away piles of targets. It will only help with hard targets, and in terms of time vs. reward, those are a bad deal. So yes, it will make them more powerful, it will give them some team appeal, but by no means will it infringe on that blaster who's running at ~100% damage boost, who drops aim+BU and nukes a spawn into oblivion and and AOE the next one nearly has hard on a steamrolling team. For the steamrolling team, the sentinel will still be sub optimal, with the opportunity to shine really showing up on AVs and such. Sentinels may well become kings at soloing AVs, and while that may upset someone, I'm pretty sure all the ATs which are better at AOEs will cry themselves to sleep on their piles of influence and purple recipes. 

 

[drbuzzard]

21 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Doesn't the inherent already apply a very small non-stacking resistance and defense debuff all the time?  I can't check at the moment to confirm, but I thought it did.  The big -20% debuff is attached as a single target effect from the T1/T2 after filling the bar, but pretty sure there are is a mini-me version attached to all attacks on the AT. 

I know it applies a 4.5% (iirc) resistance debuff all the time. I think that the defense debuff might only be in Offensive mode (or do you get a to hit buff? I don't recall, it's too small to be of note IMO). 

[oldskool]

Part 1... Addressing the core issue

 

So if we ever do get to voice our concerns as a community on fixing the Sentinel it is kinda my dream that we get on a similar page about what to rant on. 

First thing to clear up on the ranting is how we address the inherent.  I think Captain Powerhouse understands that people don't like it and that it feels clunky.  I think we need to exercise some caution around saying hyperbolic things like "being pegged into taking" or "forced to take" when it comes to the T1 and T2.  I do not feel forced to take either.  I have builds that do take both the T1 and T2 or one or the other.  That choice revolves around a lot of different factors.  Some factors are just which one has the best DPA and are there other powers I feel are more important.  Sometimes that factor is as simple as "do I feel this build can make use out of Defensive Opportunity at times?" and that gets paired with the idea of "I'd still like to have Offensive Opportunity too".  If those two things mesh with the build, then I go for it.  I tend to find more general value in Defensive Opportunity as the resource return works with AoE powers.  Its a nice perk for some builds that are a little endurance heavy.  Offensive Opportunity is there for those that wish to completely min-max their damage but let's be real... Offensive Opportunity isn't that good. 

So when we address the real issue with the inherent let's keep it simple to the fundamental problem.  The problem isn't that you need the T1 and T2 because you don't.  The problem is that neither of these are all that impactful in the first place.  I can skip Offensive Opportunity and miss out on like what... 10% base damage when my build is fully fleshed out?  Or I can skip Defensive Opportunity which for some builds can be made completely irrelevant due to endurance management from the secondary.  We shouldn't kid ourselves that these attacks are "necessary" because the effects they lend are far from necessary.  Hell, some primary power sets can have attack chains fully capable of ignoring the T1/T2 entirely (e.g., Beam Rifle, Archery, etc.).  You'd only ever want to click your T1 at that point for the minor damage boost or the T2 for some resource return.  Those attacks aren't really there because they matter in the grand scheme of things.  I get that a feeling exists on needing to take both the T1 and T2 so that removes player agency.  I totally get that, but its in our heads.  Still, perception is reality so I ask that we exercise some caution here in order to strengthen the argument. 

Anyway, the impact of either of these modes sounds great on paper but falls short in actual game play.  Additionally, the inclusion of a choice on which mode to pick is only an illusion of one because quite frankly neither mode matters that much.  The only thing about Opportunity that is worth a damn is the -20% resistance debuff.  That's it and for that reason I feel the inherent sucks. 

As stated at the start being on the same page is just a dream.  I recognize that I am no more right in feeling the way I do about the inherent as anyone else.  Though I do feel that we might miss the forest for the trees if we state things like the T1 and T2 powers are must haves in such universal tones.

 

Part 2... Preparing for what may happen

If we're going to try and push for more damage, then be prepared to see a removal of the debuff element.  If the Tanker changes are kind of litmus test, then if our damage scalar goes up we're likely going to lose the resistance debuffs.  In general our damage scalar change should be a net positive for personal damage output while reducing the group play dynamic.  I can be fine with this as I think the application of resistance debuffing is a bit out of hand, but our inherent should do something meaning for the role.  I'm totally speculating here, of course, but I get the impression that the resistance debuff will go away completely.

So what's the role?  Well, sturdy ranged damage.  Sentinels are just another damage AT tossed onto the dog pile of damage ATs.  You don't see Stalkers or Scrappers passing out large scale meaningful support so I don't expect that Sentinels will either.  This is going to be a point of contention but I'd rather see the Sentinel lean more into being like a ranged Scrapper/Stalker than some Defender/Corruptor wannabe.  Sentinel's just a name.  So is Stalker.  Stalkers don't really stalk squat unless we're talking PvP.  Otherwise they start cloaked and then brawl just like Brutes, Tankers, and Scrappers.  What's in a name? 

So I'd like to see Sentinels move more towards being a ranged damage alternative to Blasters that have more in common with Scrappers/Stalkers (they already do, just push them off the ledge and finish it). 

It may sound really really generic, but I'd be happy with a damage scalar increase, an increase to the defense values (75% vs 70%), and even adding criticals as the inherent.  There is no ranged AT that has a critical hit modifier though Scourge is there sort of.  Let Blasters keep their scaling damage in Defiance.  Let Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders keep their higher target caps on AOE.  Push the Sentinel more towards being a ranged version of their melee cousins.  Obviously a pass on the ATOs would need to happen to make them fall in line with any changes to the current inherent. 

I'd be happy with that.  I'm really really apprehensive about trying to shoehorn in more "roles" to this AT.  I don't want to dissuade anyone from speaking their mind about what they'd like to see happen with the AT.  Hell, there are plenty of posters far more creative than I am.  However, I just feel the more we try to move the needle from being a damage dealer the more disappointed we're all going to get with how the chips fall. 

I'd also be happy with a simple button being added like Domination that when you click it you gain the resource return of Defensive Opportunity and the damage boost of Offensive Opportunity at the same time.  Simplify the inherent without completely reinventing the wheel and restore some player agency as to which power they keep between the T1 and T2.

 

Ugh, I really didn't want too get cynical about this, but I feel that is going to be the reality. 😞

Edited November 12, 2019 by oldskool

[drbuzzard]

I have no objections to your suggestion, and I wouldn't really mind criticals at all. However the reason I made my suggestion based on resistance debuff is just so things are different. Right now both stalkers and scrappers are critical based, and I wanted something different, and at least sort of related to the current state of the AT. I get your point that no other ranged at does crits, so that is at least novel. 

 

I would stand on my notion that they don't want a survivable blaster who can farm. A slowly building damage boost which is on the target rather than the damager is better suited to keeping a cap on that. 

 

In a way my solution is comparatively gimpy. 

[Erratic1]

(1) I almost always team as well. I happen to greatly enjoy the Protean story arc and so do it on every character.

 

(2) Sentinels are a dps class, but I am pretty sure that when you are in the character creator nearly every other class with the exception of Controllers and Masterminds is listed there. Doing dps covers a very wide range.

 

(3) I admit I have not done nearly as much in pushing veteran levels as I could have, so far preferring to work character ideas as they come to me over polishing their post-50 forms. Even putting half of them on the back burner for various reasons (did not evolve to play as I expected, or requires more influence expenditure than I am prepared to make at this point) that still leaves me with ten characters in their 30s, five in their 40s, and five at 50+. However, I think when looking at where the population bulge is for actively played characters is I have that ground pretty well covered.

 

(4) Most ATs feel pretty superfluous as you near 50. The Tanker is wondering what role he is serving when spawns die instantly, the Blasters feeling outshone by other ATs which may not kill quite as quickly but do so quickly enough while bringing other benefits to the team, the Controllers feeling a lot like the Tanker, etc. So good are the various ATs at that point that you see "degenerate" teams of single ATs forming. Tanker Tuesday is a cross server, scheduled event. Pure Defender teams go back to the early days of the game. I have seen pure Mastermind groups form (shudder to think what that must be like in a cave). And just this week I was invited to an all Sentinel supergroup. Point here being that endgame, chocked full of IOs, who is filling a team slot is pretty meaningless. It's in the lower game that AT matters.

 

(5) As I noted, I agree that Sentinels need something when it comes to teams. I just do not agree that more damage or buffing damage is it. The name of the AT does not suggest damage powerhouse nor damage enabler. In fact, I would go the opposite way and instead have Sentinels redirect a portion of damage dealt by their targets to themselves for a duration after being hit. If that is too hard to code, then a damage debuff on their targets. 

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, oldskool said:

Doesn't the inherent already apply a very small non-stacking resistance and defense debuff all the time?  I can't check at the moment to confirm, but I thought it did.  The big -20% debuff is attached as a single target effect from the T1/T2 after filling the bar, but pretty sure there are is a mini-me version attached to all attacks on the AT. 

My understanding is that the single-target effect is -5% resistance debuff only, not defense.  If I'm wrong and there's also a -5% defense debuff, then mission accomplished, AFAIC.

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

(2) Sentinels are a dps class, but I am pretty sure that when you are in the character creator nearly every other class with the exception of Controllers and Masterminds is listed there. Doing dps covers a very wide range.

 

(4) It's in the lower game that AT matters.

For point #2, that's a potentially deceptive point to make.  The game doesn't differentiate DPS like that.  Instead you select broad power set ranges and the game returns to the player output of everything that can potentially do it.  Brutes exist in the melee damage and tanking parameters.  Tankers also exist in the melee damage realm but their rating is 7 vs a Scrapper at 10.  Its pretty clear which one is the specialist in damage and which one is the specialist in defense even if they exist in the same category.  Ranged damage works the same way.  I can clearly see a difference that Defenders aren't going to do as much ranged damage as a Blaster since their ranks are quite different.  The way the character creator lays out the information is more like here are all of your options with a sliding scale of optimal behavior in specific context.  Controllers are in the "Pets" category because they can summon a persistent one... at level 32. 

For point #4, so should the Sentinel get a revamp to its inherent purely to appease low level content players in a game that is no longer in a retail status?  That last bit seems pretty relevant because you can blow past the mid-levels in hours.  There is no incentive to keep players slogging through a leveling treadmill since there are no monthly subscriptions to maintain.  I mean, I don't disagree that the lower levels is where AT identity can potentially make a bigger difference, but it isn't like you can't curbstomp this game with totally random compositions from the start. 

 

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, oldskool said:

For point #2, that's a potentially deceptive point to make.  The game doesn't differentiate DPS like that.  Instead you select broad power set ranges and the game returns to the player output of everything that can potentially do it.  Brutes exist in the melee damage and tanking parameters.  Tankers also exist in the melee damage realm but their rating is 7 vs a Scrapper at 10.  Its pretty clear which one is the specialist in damage and which one is the specialist in defense even if they exist in the same category.  Ranged damage works the same way.  I can clearly see a difference that Defenders aren't going to do as much ranged damage as a Blaster since their ranks are quite different.  The way the character creator lays out the information is more like here are all of your options with a sliding scale of optimal behavior in specific context.  Controllers are in the "Pets" category because they can summon a persistent one... at level 32. 

For point #4, so should the Sentinel get a revamp to its inherent purely to appease low level content players in a game that is no longer in a retail status?  That last bit seems pretty relevant because you can blow past the mid-levels in hours.  There is no incentive to keep players slogging through a leveling treadmill since there are no monthly subscriptions to maintain.  I mean, I don't disagree that the lower levels is where AT identity can potentially make a bigger difference, but it isn't like you can't curbstomp this game with totally random compositions from the start. 

 

I am unsure what is deceptive, especially when you echo my point by looking at the range of damage on various ATs.

 

As for "appeasing" people, if AT does not matter much at end game, why are you expecting to feel needed by a particular change when it is clear nobody is needed? It is not about appeasing people, it's about make a difference where a difference is meaningful. 

 

 

[oldskool]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

I am unsure what is deceptive, especially when you echo my point by looking at the range of damage on various ATs.

Well I stated potentially deceptive and not that is was for certain deceptive.  Saying that Sentinels are a DPS class then citing how the character creator lumps all classes except Controllers/Masterminds into the ranged damage role is a bit disingenuous.  Playing a character intended to be a primary damage dealer is different from playing a character that can contribute damage as a secondary or tertiary role.  In short, the statement comes across as placing the Sentinel on the same ground as every other AT in the "Ranged Damage" category.  Or in other words, since the Defender exists in the "Ranged Damage" category then it too is a DPS class.  That may not have been the intent, but that is how the statement can come across.   

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

why are you expecting to feel needed by a particular change when it is clear nobody is needed?

I most certainly don't feel some expectation of need on anything I play.  Period, full stop.  Doesn't matter if I am logging in to my Tanker or my Controller or my Scrapper.  I don't seek out groups with those characters because I have some sense that a team needs me.  I log in to those ATs because I like those characters and their power combinations.  If a group lets me in, when I am feeling like teaming, then I plan to contribute as best I can.  What I don't do is spend time staring at my navel as a Tanker when blasters start mowing down massive groups.  If a group I am with gets to a point where I am not having fun then I can drop that group and do something else.  In my experience that doesn't happen enough to really bother me, but I get it does to some others.  Your other points about making a difference and meaning are fair.

[Erratic1]

14 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Well I stated potentially deceptive and not that is was for certain deceptive.  Saying that Sentinels are a DPS class then citing how the character creator lumps all classes except Controllers/Masterminds into the ranged damage role is a bit disingenuous.  Playing a character intended to be a primary damage dealer is different from playing a character that can contribute damage as a secondary or tertiary role.  In short, the statement comes across as placing the Sentinel on the same ground as every other AT in the "Ranged Damage" category.  Or in other words, since the Defender exists in the "Ranged Damage" category then it too is a DPS class.  That may not have been the intent, but that is how the statement can come across.   

 

Being a primary damage dealer does not necessarily mean the same thing as hitting as hard as some other AT. Corruptors and Defenders do spend some of their time on buffing, debuffing, and healing. When I play my Kinetics defender more of my time is typically spent doing those things than delivering damage--which is typically being used to debuff the target so others can deal even more damage than Fulcrum Shift and Power Siphon already allow them. There is precious little of my time on my Sentinel doing anything other than blasting--my secondary powerset being about keeping me safe and working and not requiring a lot of time to get value from. And unlike my Blaster, no time is ever spent being mezzed or knocked around and less time is spent maneuvering so things do not get close. The freedom to continuously put out damage means something. Granted there is time spent getting into range every now and then.

 

And yes, I consider the Defender (and moreso the Corruptor) as dps ATs. They just are not top tier ones in team situations, at least not directly. But if the damage output of the team is doubled by my Fulcrum Shift that damage happened because of me. Bringing another Blaster would not have increased the team's damage as much.

 

In the realm of the game where people feel their team needs a particular AT the want Blasters and Scrappers for dps, Tankers and Bruisers to take alpha strikes and hold aggro, Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, and Masterminds for healing, buffs, debuffs, and control, etc. Certainly the import of "ranged scrapper" suggests more damage, but as I noted in my first post in the thread, it seems to me a bit unfair for Sentinels to be at Blaster damage output levels and have considerably better survivability. There should be some tradeoff for being able to better take hits and ignoring status effects other than range and AoE target caps. If that is hitting less hard than a Blaster, I am finexwith it just like I am fine with my Corruptors hittingbless hard for the buffs/controls/healing they have. But I do want people to have a reason when a Sentinel joins the team to expect some gain other than someone who will be good on their own. 

 

[oldskool]

4 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Being a primary damage dealer does not necessarily mean the same thing as hitting as hard as some other AT. Corruptors and Defenders do spend some of their time on buffing, debuffing, and healing. When I play my Kinetics defender more of my time is typically spent doing those things than delivering damage--which is typically being used to debuff the target so others can deal even more damage than Fulcrum Shift and Power Siphon already allow them. There is precious little of my time on my Sentinel doing anything other than blasting--my secondary powerset being about keeping me safe and working and not requiring a lot of time to get value from. And unlike my Blaster, no time is ever spent being mezzed or knocked around and less time is spent maneuvering so things do not get close. The freedom to continuously put out damage means something. Granted there is time spent getting into range every now and then.

 

And yes, I consider the Defender (and moreso the Corruptor) as dps ATs. They just are not top tier ones in team situations, at least not directly. But if the damage output of the team is doubled by my Fulcrum Shift that damage happened because of me. Bringing another Blaster would not have increased the team's damage as much.

 

In the realm of the game where people feel their team needs a particular AT the want Blasters and Scrappers for dps, Tankers and Bruisers to take alpha strikes and hold aggro, Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, and Masterminds for healing, buffs, debuffs, and control, etc. Certainly the import of "ranged scrapper" suggests more damage, but as I noted in my first post in the thread, it seems to me a bit unfair for Sentinels to be at Blaster damage output levels and have considerably better survivability. There should be some tradeoff for being able to better take hits and ignoring status effects other than range and AoE target caps. If that is hitting less hard than a Blaster, I am finexwith it just like I am fine with my Corruptors hittingbless hard for the buffs/controls/healing they have. But I do want people to have a reason when a Sentinel joins the team to expect some gain other than someone who will be good on their own. 

 

I appreciate the clarity on where you stand.  I don't view Defenders as a DPS AT at all, but I really don't want to argue a difference of opinion there.  I'm merely stating my position so my previous views have that context. 

I'm in agreement that if Sentinels were to get some form of change with a positive effect on damage that said damage should not eclipse the Blaster.  I also don't think that's going to happen either.  I don't think a scalar shift from 0.95 to 1.0 is so big that it steps on the Blaster's 1.125 + Defiance.  Adding criticals might and if so then it shouldn't happen.  If keeping the current inherent with a scalar shift also creates a problem, then that shouldn't happen either.  For the sake of consistency, I'd like to Sentinels have their Secondary sets get a 75% scale vs the current 70% scale.  No, Sentinels don't really need that for survival but it feels like an unnecessary implementation in its current state. 

Those are my very basic thoughts on what might be done to improve the AT.  In actual play, I am very happy with the Sentinel.  Really dramatic changes to the AT would potentially cause me to revisit multiple builds plus spend resources to adapt.  I'm actually not that interested in having my builds so dramatically upended so I'd rather advocate for streamlining/simplicity.  The longer they go without proposing changes the worse that feeling is going to get for me, and I doubt I'd be alone.

Edited November 13, 2019 by oldskool

[Erratic1]

If the notion was that Opportunity was supposed to be a boost to damage and survival then depending on what it gets replaced with small boosts to damage/defenses do no strike me as being out of line.