Endurance drain on Mobs

[Iggylove]

Devs, smart people,

 

One of my mains is a Dark/Elec brute. Love the character. One of my staples of course is energy drain - Power Sink (transfer). My only beef is (this is only from observation so I could totally be wrong) and something I would love to get looked at, is when I do energy drain on Mobs, taking their endurance down to zero, it does nothing? They can still use all their powers; all their toggles or pins on me stay active (ie: longbow bosses) If they did the opposite to me I would drop faster than a box of rocks as all my shields would shutdown, and I could not use any of my powers. Besides the endurance transfer to me there is no penalty to them for loss of endurance?

All about balance, not looking for an easy button, but I was just curious if we could add some kind of benefit to the player or penalty to a mob if their endurance goes to zero. Maybe they can only use one power, or they do less damage, they become feared?

I am sure this had been discussed but I could not find anything, but I would love some insight.

Thanks for listening and keep up the great work.

 

~Iggy

Edited November 28, 2019 by Iggylove

[Redlynne]

There are TWO factors to endurance draining that you need to pay attention to, because if you're only stocking up on one you're missing out on the other and getting the performance you describe/lament.

• Endurance "Damage"
• Endurance Recovery Debuffing

The former is pretty straightforward and works just like damage to the green HP bar ... except that you're doing "damage" to the blue endurance bar.  This is a subtractive process.  Do -10 endurance "damage" to the endurance bar and the $Target loses 10 endurance from their endurance bar.  Relatively simple, right?  Works just like damage, yes?  And the idea is to reduce the blue bar to zero, right?

 

Except, if that's all that you're doing ... "damage" to the blue bar ... you've missed the other very important part of the equation.

 

Endurance Recovery Debuffing is what helps prevent the blue bar from "growing back" after it has been drained.  You need to being doing this kind of debuffing to your $Target(s) as well if you want to prevent them from recovering enough endurance to attack you with.  You can reduce endurance to zero ... but if an endurance recovery tick grants them enough endurance to use an attack 1 second later because their recovery rate hasn't been debuffed then they'll launch the attack and you won't see the blue bar rise (because add/subtract happened in almost zero time as far as your UI is concerned).

 

So if you want to properly neutralize $Targets you not only need to drain their endurance down to zero, you need to also prevent them from recovering any endurance any time soon so as to keep them in "drained lockdown" unable to attack you.

 

If you're draining endurance to zero and still being attacked ... that's because you're not also debuffing endurance recovery on top of actually draining available endurance.

 

 

 

Think of it as being a bit like how you ruin the day of a Regeneration themed powerset.  You can hit them for heaping helpings of damage ... like 1000 damage in one shot ... but if they regenerate that back in less than 2 seconds because you haven't debuffed their regeneration rate, how much damage to their green bar did you REALLY do to them (that stuck around for long enough to matter)?  Same deal with draining blue bars ... because if you aren't debuffing endurance recovery then you aren't KEEPING your $Targets at zero endurance where they can't power their attacks.

 

There are other bits of info you're really going to want to know beyond those basics, and for that knowledge I'd refer you to the Archetype forums where people discuss how to leverage Electric draining attacks to best advantage, because you're going to need both types of debuffing (subtracting and delaying) in order to achieve what you're trying to do with your drains.

[Razor Cure]

58 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

If you're draining endurance to zero and still being attacked ... that's because you're not also debuffing endurance recovery on top of actually draining available endurance.

I do understand that but...I do that with my kin corr, and stuff STILL attacks right away, despite having literally zero end. Obviously I am not debuffing recovery, and so I am not expecting mobs to be unable to attack forever..but right away, following a 100% drain? They should have literally no end pool to activate any powers, maybe besides brawl.

[Iggylove]

@ Redlynne, thanks for taking the time to explain. I believe I am following along. So with that said. With what I am experiencing in game, most mobs endurance recovery rate is so large it allows them to use all their powers even if they are at zero endurance? and/or all their endurance costs for their powers is so low that they all fit into that first endurance recovery tick? So, (bad example, made up numbers) Boss at 0 endurance, end recovery rate is 10 per tick. If all his powers only cost 3 endurance each to fire, he would still have access to any power to attack?

 

I am not really get under the hood kind of guy, if it's working as intended I am fine with that. Just visually within the game it's annoying having bosses sitting at zero end and they just attack normal.

I will look into adding endurance recovery debuff.

 

Thanks for the insight, and enjoy the holiday

~Iggy

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Iggylove

[Sura]

It might be mob dependent, but I see my END drain having an effect fairly often.  END drain as mitigation is not something I'd want to depend on, and anything over EB isn't going to fall for it, but it's a good tool for a character's toolbox.  It seems like all of the mobs' attacks cost one END, so even one tick of recovery allows them to attack with any of their attacks (it really should be that their attacks cost what they would cost for a character).  But if you can drain them and then debuff their recovery it can work.

 

I think recovery ticks once every four seconds, so it can also be that you drain, they tick, and then your attack with the recovery debuff goes off.  So they'll get at least one attack just from unlucky timing.  There's another piece to this too I think, that I'm having trouble putting into words, but it's something like that there's no way to completely eliminate recovery on a mob.  You can FLOOR recovery, but not eliminate it, if that makes sense.  At least that's what I think.  

 

The best thing I can think of to test is to get a Boss or EB solo and drain them down and then note how it changes their attack patterns.  That poor minotaur at the end of the Alpha slot unlock quest chain got drained so fast I don't think he attacked me much more than four times as my Ice/Elec tanker whittled him down.  

 

EDIT: another thing where you can see your END drain doing stuff is with Tsoo Sorcerers (for example).  If they put up Hurricane and you drain them it'll shut off immediately.  It's an obvious detoggle due to END drain, but I would guess there are other not so obvious things like that as well.  I know you can at least delay Paragon Protectors from popping MoG too.

 

Also keep in mind that there are Incarnate pieces that you can try that can enhance your END drain build.  

Edited November 28, 2019 by Sura

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Iggylove said:

@ Redlynne, thanks for taking the time to explain. I believe I am following along. So with that said. With what I am experiencing in game, most mobs endurance recovery rate is so large it allows them to use all their powers even if they are at zero endurance? and/or all their endurance costs for their powers is so low that they all fit into that first endurance recovery tick? So, (bad example, made up numbers) Boss at 0 endurance, end recovery rate is 10 per tick. If all his powers only cost 3 endurance each to fire, he would still have access to any power to attack?

 

I am not really get under the hood kind of guy, if it's working as intended I am fine with that. Just visually within the game it's annoying having bosses sitting at zero end and they just attack normal.

I will look into adding endurance recovery debuff.

That's the basic broad outlines of what's going on.  It's basically the same mechanics that allow Regeneration to be survivable ... except here you're doing stuff to the blue bar instead of the green bar.

 

Something that can mess up assumptions though is that Lieutenants and Bosses (and above?) have more Max Endurance than just a mere 100 (think 120? 140?) ... so you have to drain them further than you might otherwise assume in order to get them to 0, and I think(?) that the in-game UI isn't exactly reporting what your $Target's actual remaining endurance is if it's a 0-100 scaling (default) and the $Target has more than 100 Max Endurance.  So there's all kinds of "under the hood" stuff that's not helping you a great deal.

 

These are the links to the "under the hood" stuff I've mentioned ... HERE and HERE.

 

The important thing to remember is that endurance drains remove endurance from the blue bar, but don't prevent recovery of the endurance into that blue bar.

However, endurance is recovered at a rate of 5% of Max Endurance per tick and the endurance recovery buff/debuff influences how QUICKLY those recovery ticks happen.  So by debuffing endurance recovery you delay how quickly those ticks "arrive" to offset the draining that you're doing.

 

5% of 100 Max Endurance = +5 endurance per tick

5% of 120 Max Endurance = +6 endurance per tick

5% of 140 Max Endurance = +7 endurance per tick

 

The base rate of ticks for that endurance recovery is 1 tick per 3 seconds ... unless endurance recovery is debuffed ... which DELAYS how quickly those endurance ticks arrive.  It doesn't make them "smaller per tick" ... but rather makes the delay between ticks last longer, it's that delay that helps you keep endurance debuffed to zero for longer, preventing $Targets from using powers.  And for THAT you want to be using ... THIS ...

 

So if you recover 100% of your Max Endurance every 60 seconds (100/60=1.67 end/s which is the base amount) and you're recovering 5% of that every tick (so 20 ticks per minute, meaning 1 tick every 3 seconds) you'll start to get an idea of just how important endurance recovery debuffing is going to be to you.

 

Let's pick a nice round number of say ... -50% endurance recovery ... just to make the math easy.

This makes the endurance recovery take a lot longer to happen, per tick.  The size of the recovery ticks is still the same, but there's a longer delay between them.

 

So instead of recovering 100% of Max Endurance in 60 seconds ... now it's 100% of Max Endurance in 120 seconds.  At 5% per tick, you just do 120/20=6 seconds between ticks ... as opposed to the 3 seconds between ticks computed just above (for NPCs who don't get Stamina to muck up the math).

 

At a -75% endurance recovery, recovery of 100% of Max Endurance increases from 60 seconds to 240 seconds(!).  At 5% per tick, you just do 240/20=12 seconds(!) between ticks ... as opposed to the 3 seconds between ticks computed above (for NPCs who don't get Stamina to muck up the math).

 

Incidentally, this the exact same set of computations that are used for -Movement and -Recharge debuffing calculations.

-50% doubles the time it takes to recharge/go places.

-75% quadruples(!) the time it takes to recharge/go places.

So this kind of debuffing is VERY powerful.  It's why so many AV/GM hunter builds are constantly scrounging for -Regen debuffing (among other things) in order to leverage this relationship to the "timing" of ticks of regeneration (and why slowing them down is so debilitating to use of regeneration as a damage mitigation scheme).

 

 

 

And if THAT hasn't caught your attention yet ... ask yourself this.

Do you want the $Targets you're draining of endurance to be getting back +5/6/7/more(!?) endurance every 3 seconds ... or every 12 seconds?

 

Answer carefully, because the answer will determine how "useful" your drains are at keeping your $Targets helpless before you.

And remember that the timing of those recovery ticks for NPCs is not dictated by when your drain lands on them ... meaning it's perfectly possible for them to be drained to zero and then get a recovery tick a fraction of a second later, allowing them enough endurance to "do something" immediately after you've drained them because they suddenly got +5/6/7/more(!?) endurance after you'd drained them to zero.

 

 

 

Draining $Targets to zero is important ... but keeping them at zero is a challenge that requires endurance recovery debuffing.

 

Hope that helps. 😓

Edited November 28, 2019 by Redlynne

[EmmySky]

@Redlynne

 

This is the first explanation that even begins to make sense to me.  I will definitely take all of this into account as I build my 'sapper' toons.

 

Thank you for making it more understandable.  Math is still my enemy but maybe I can figure it out now.

[Myrmidon]

My Elec/Kin Corruptor approves of any End Drain boost that the Captain is willing to give us.😁

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

This is the first explanation that even begins to make sense to me.  I will definitely take all of this into account as I build my 'sapper' toons.

 

Thank you for making it more understandable.  Math is still my enemy but maybe I can figure it out now.

We make every pretense of competency around here ... 💫

[GM Sijin]

Also keep in mind that both debuffs and endurance drains reduce significantly against enemies at higher levels than you. At +2 they're still pretty effective, but beyond that things start tapering off pretty rapidly. At +4 enemies take less than half of the effect of any debuffing. That means you need around 210% total endurance recovery debuffing to stop a +4 enemy from recovering endurance, assuming they have no endurance recovery buffs or resistance to it (most sub-AVs don't). Also keep in mind it's possible for enemies to tick up their endurance at the same time they're hit by a endurance drain/recovery debuff power, and if this happens they will get that endurance after the drain/debuff apply due to the way the back end stuff work.