Suggestion: Change AoE Sleep Magnitude from 3.0 to 3.5

[oedipus_tex]

It's accepted wisdom that most Controllers skip their AoE sleep powers. The two exceptions are typically Electric and Mind Control.

 

If the Magnitude of AoE Sleeps was 3.5 instead of 3.0, these powers would guarantee Controllers and non-perma Doms a way to control boss spawns and make these powers somewhat more attractive. It would also help Mind Controllers catch up (slightly) to Mind Dominators by at least having one AoE that competes with a Domination-enhanced control.

 

There is already one example in game of a Sleep power with Mag 3.5: Mesmerize. It functions exactly as we'd expect a Mag 3.5 power to function: instantly sleeping a boss.

 

There are plenty of other ideas for enhancing these powers (making them pulse is another idea) but this is one that would make me take notice.

Edited December 7, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[QuiJon]

The thing is the general reason why people skip that power is because if you stub the toe of the enemy that is slept they wake up. Now if you are soloing, especially on a dom you can control your damage output and make sure to attack around that slept boss creature. However if you are on a team, they are going to drop AOEs into that mob and the sleep effect is then essentially wasted again. Not to menion that by the time you get pets you can not direct controller and dominator pets. so even when you sleep them your pets can just run right up and wake up half a mob anyway. 

Frankly Sleeps to be effective need a fundamental change, maybe add in debuffs to them or something to make them worthwhile even if the mobs are woke up like a -hps or -tohit or -res of something depending on the set. Otherwise just get rid of them and come up with something more useful like make sure every set gets some kind of pseudo pet like Haunts or Carion Creepers or something that helps with damage to replace the AOE sleeps. 

[oedipus_tex]

6 hours ago, QuiJon said:

The thing is the general reason why people skip that power is because if you stub the toe of the enemy that is slept they wake up. Now if you are soloing, especially on a dom you can control your damage output and make sure to attack around that slept boss creature. However if you are on a team, they are going to drop AOEs into that mob and the sleep effect is then essentially wasted again. Not to menion that by the time you get pets you can not direct controller and dominator pets. so even when you sleep them your pets can just run right up and wake up half a mob anyway. 

Frankly Sleeps to be effective need a fundamental change, maybe add in debuffs to them or something to make them worthwhile even if the mobs are woke up like a -hps or -tohit or -res of something depending on the set. Otherwise just get rid of them and come up with something more useful like make sure every set gets some kind of pseudo pet like Haunts or Carion Creepers or something that helps with damage to replace the AOE sleeps. 

 

The main reason I skip them is the Magnitude is identical to the much better Stun, Confuse, or Hold powers. If the Magnitude was 3.5, it would be sleep Bosses and I'd at least have a reason to consider them. Even if the Sleep doesn't hold it could be used to detoggle Dispersion Bubble.

 

On Dominators, Mag 3.5 x 2 in Domination mode result in Mag 7 which overcomes a natural Elite Bosses' Mag 6 protection.

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

On Dominators, Mag 3.5 x 2 in Domination mode result in Mag 7 which overcomes a natural Elite Bosses' Mag 6 protection.

Still not seeing a downside here ...

[oedipus_tex]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Still not seeing a downside here ...

 

I meant to list it as an upside to adjusting it. 🙂

[QuiJon]

13 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

The main reason I skip them is the Magnitude is identical to the much better Stun, Confuse, or Hold powers. If the Magnitude was 3.5, it would be sleep Bosses and I'd at least have a reason to consider them. Even if the Sleep doesn't hold it could be used to detoggle Dispersion Bubble.

 

On Dominators, Mag 3.5 x 2 in Domination mode result in Mag 7 which overcomes a natural Elite Bosses' Mag 6 protection.

I am not saying not to increase the mag, I just still don't perceive that many dominators or controllers will by the end run on character design think it is a worthwhile power to take because no matter what the mag is, if it is wiped out when the enemy takes damage then the enemy is awake no matter what the initial mag of the AOE or ST sleep was. 

 

So for example lets say you have that controller and you sleep the entire mob, what good is that when you Phantasm runs up and energy torrents the entire group? Or your fire imps run in and wake up the EB or boss you had slept, or your tank runs in with his raditated ground running. I am just saying a power that essentially loses all its effectiveness when an enemy takes damage is a waste of a power to take in almost every case I can think of unless you are the only one doing damage and can exactly control where that damage is going. Which precludes team play, and precludes even solo play on a controller or dominator after level 32 and you have your pets or even before in the case of things like dark and plant that get haunts and carion creepers spamming damage randomly. 

 

This is why I said perhaps if you gave sleeps a lasting Debuff effect that remained for its full duration on an enemy no matter if the enemy was woke or not, it would make that power more attractive over all because I can then argue that the enemy even if woke is still doing less damage, or not hitting me as much or taking more damage etc. But even if the mag was higher I have 3 IOd out controllers and 5 perma doms, and on none of those 8 characters would I go back and retool to take a sleep power even if it slept an EB in one hit because that EB wakes up as soon as it takes 1 point in damage. I would have been better off starting to over come its mag on holds or confuse then wasting the end on a sleep. 

[oedipus_tex]

34 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

I am not saying not to increase the mag, I just still don't perceive that many dominators or controllers will by the end run on character design think it is a worthwhile power to take because no matter what the mag is, if it is wiped out when the enemy takes damage then the enemy is awake no matter what the initial mag of the AOE or ST sleep was. 

 

So for example lets say you have that controller and you sleep the entire mob, what good is that when you Phantasm runs up and energy torrents the entire group? Or your fire imps run in and wake up the EB or boss you had slept, or your tank runs in with his raditated ground running. I am just saying a power that essentially loses all its effectiveness when an enemy takes damage is a waste of a power to take in almost every case I can think of unless you are the only one doing damage and can exactly control where that damage is going. Which precludes team play, and precludes even solo play on a controller or dominator after level 32 and you have your pets or even before in the case of things like dark and plant that get haunts and carion creepers spamming damage randomly. 

 

This is why I said perhaps if you gave sleeps a lasting Debuff effect that remained for its full duration on an enemy no matter if the enemy was woke or not, it would make that power more attractive over all because I can then argue that the enemy even if woke is still doing less damage, or not hitting me as much or taking more damage etc. But even if the mag was higher I have 3 IOd out controllers and 5 perma doms, and on none of those 8 characters would I go back and retool to take a sleep power even if it slept an EB in one hit because that EB wakes up as soon as it takes 1 point in damage. I would have been better off starting to over come its mag on holds or confuse then wasting the end on a sleep. 

 

 

Not to pick on the specifics, but the sets you mentioned don't actually have an AoE Sleep.  The sets with AoE Sleep are:

• Plant 
• Ice
• Mind
• Earth
• Electric (but its a different class of power and does not need a buff IMO)

 

Of the sets above, only Mind Control characters regularly take the Sleep. This is a combination of Mind not really having anything better and the fact that because it is a non-notify power it's actually somewhat useful, because you can cast it twice to Sleep an entire mob. If the Mag were 3.5 you could do this instantly in one cast instead of 2.

 

I agree that a long lasting debuff might still be useful. It's just that there are already so many long lasting debuffs in the game.

 

FWIW a second solution would be something where the Sleep effect re-applies itself several times over a period of time. Something like this:

 

• 100% Chance for Mag 3.5 Sleep
• 80% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after 2 seconds
• 80% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after 4 seconds
• 80% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after 6 seconds
• 80% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after 8 seconds
• 80% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after 10 seconds

 

That would allow the powers to function sorta-kinda like Electric's does, although with a slightly different mechanism.

 

Regardless, I'd still like that initial Sleep to be Mag 3.5 to set it apart from other mezzes. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[QuiJon]

In doing that though, giving it the time clicks like that, you are essentially turning it into a hold power like volcanic gases. I mean yeah sure you will wake them up with a aoe but if that only last 2 seconds then what does it matter it is still essentially taking sleeps out of the game and replacing them with holds. So really I think we agree, as a sleep power by definition in this game, sleeps are totally useless. Even giving htem higher mag does nothing because they are just woken up and if you have a power that continually reaplies the effect you are in essence holding the enemy rather then sleeping it anyway. So like I said, why not find a reason to make it useful or replace it in the sets with other powers. I have both a mind dom and a earth dom and 2 plant doms I don't take the sleep on any of them. If nothing else find some kind of earthquake or bonfire, or hot feet etc for those sets that makes more sense to have and would be more useful. 

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, QuiJon said:

In doing that though, giving it the time clicks like that, you are essentially turning it into a hold power like volcanic gases. I mean yeah sure you will wake them up with a aoe but if that only last 2 seconds then what does it matter it is still essentially taking sleeps out of the game and replacing them with holds. So really I think we agree, as a sleep power by definition in this game, sleeps are totally useless. Even giving htem higher mag does nothing because they are just woken up and if you have a power that continually reaplies the effect you are in essence holding the enemy rather then sleeping it anyway. So like I said, why not find a reason to make it useful or replace it in the sets with other powers. I have both a mind dom and a earth dom and 2 plant doms I don't take the sleep on any of them. If nothing else find some kind of earthquake or bonfire, or hot feet etc for those sets that makes more sense to have and would be more useful. 

 

Fair points.

The point would be to bring the sleep powers somewhat closer in utility to Electric Control's sleep patch, Static Field, which is a fairly popular power. Least ways, I'd never skip it.

 

Granted, the developers knew the reputation of the Controller sleeps when Static Field was created, which is how it got much more favorable statistics than a typical Sleep:

• 40 second recharge (as opposed to 90 for Salt Crystals and Flash Freeze, and 45 for Spore Burst and Mass Hypnosis)
• 25 second duration of re-application of sleeps of anything that steps in it
• A very small endurance recovery boost

 

The nice thing about Static Field is you can throw a single Accuracy in it and the power basically is good to go. 

 

I don't necessarily want to see all the other Sleeps turn into clones of it. But to me it's one of the best designed powers in the game: accessible at low levels, requires some strategy to use, is powerful in the right situation, and there are other situations it's not great. 

 

Mass Hypnosis is the closest of the existing AoE Sleeps to being a decent power. Mainly, this is due to a fast recharge (45 seconds) and the fact that it doesn't notify enemies. On a perma-dom the Sleep is Mag 6, which is handy. 

 

As for the difference versus Holds, the most obvious difference is that Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion both protect from Stun, Hold, and Immobilize, but not Sleep. This is why the single target Mind Control power Mesmerize is sometimes deployed, because as a Mag 3.5 Sleep, it will detoggle a boss running these powers. The second difference is AVs and their purple triangles. Purple triangles protect against everything except Sleep and Immobilize. Perma-doms sometimes use Mesmerize to sleep AVs and elite bosses. Even a Mind Controller can sleep some of them.

Edited December 9, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[QuiJon]

Yeah I don't know since the game has returned I have not noticed much more effort even fighting EBs or AVs then simply a team running and attacking. And in that case sleeping an AV is totally useless. Sure it might be nice if you are soloing the AV and can clear the mobs around him first, but when it comes time to fight the AV you still have to do damage in which case the sleep is again useless and if you are a controller and can drop debuffs on a AV to survive then you can really do so to begin with while clearing extra mobs. And again I would point out that a controller or dominator pet will likely at some point wake that AV up anyway. 

 

All I am saying is if we are talking about redesigning sets or a power even in a set, then perhaps we need to look as a whole at the set. Not just how nice it might be to have a aoe sleep at level 12, but what typically happens to that set when you level it. And I would imagine that in most cases with people wanting to fit in as much res and def as they can these days, that by level 50 most trollers and doms are not keeping sleep in their builds. Maybe if it mules a IO set, but otherwise as a useful power no. So perhaps that becomes time to look at these sets for what they might need otherwise. Like Mind control, maybe give it a toggle that does a "hot feet" kind of damage effect only like of waves of psi energy to inflict damage. Being no pet in the set and the recharge time on mass confusion that might be of use to that set and worth keeping in upper levels. IMO Plant and Earth are pretty solid as is even if there is a power in the set no one takes I would say not to mess with them. But if I had to choose something for Earth I would say a pseudo pet would be nice. Like a Carion Creepers style power, maybe a PBAOE that springs like little lava pits under foes to inflict damage and slow or immb.  Ice I really didn't like playing so I never really finished an ice troller or dom. So I can not really say what I think it needs instead of a sleep, but I do feel like it needs something. Hell with that massive toggle just give it a end recovery power IMO.

 

I just feel like I can not think of a situation when I need a sleep in ST or AOE form. So in my mind it doesn't matter how much you improve them. If I get to level 50 and have fast recharging and have a AOE hold and an AOE stun/confuse then I have an AOE control that is already much more useful then any AOE sleep and if I have both I have one ready for each group when I need one. So the sleep is superfluous to the build. If I only need 2 AOE controls why take the 1 where enemies will even wake up for a second and launch an attack versus the 2 where they are locked down or attack other enemies for me. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by QuiJon

[Frosticus]

Sleep would need a chance of "deep sleep" and a chance of "induced coma" to start being useful imo.

deep sleep would give enemies a damage threshold before they wake up. Say 40% of their hp in damage dealt before they wake.

induced coma would be a damage threshold plus time duration before they wake. Say  75% of their hp and/or 15 sec of dealing damage before they wake.

that way they result in staggering damage output of the spawn for layered mitigation on top of other controls. 

 

I can't see any scenario as sleeps are currently implemented (including they way elec's is) where I'd use it on my plant/poison. Creepers is up most of the time even with SO's and they directly counteract sleeps in that they do dot damages over a large area. 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Frosticus

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, QuiJon said:

All I am saying is if we are talking about redesigning sets or a power even in a set, then perhaps we need to look as a whole at the set. Not just how nice it might be to have a aoe sleep at level 12, but what typically happens to that set when you level it. And I would imagine that in most cases with people wanting to fit in as much res and def as they can these days, that by level 50 most trollers and doms are not keeping sleep in their builds.

 

Mass Hypnosis and Static Field are both too good to skip IMO. In Mass Hypnosis' case its largely that Mind Control happens to not have anything that is better, but if it was available to Ice. Earth, or Plant I'd still take it. Fast recharge, bypasses Ranged/AoE defense (rolls against Psi defense only), non-notify, and very few enemies have immunity. The only real set back is on Controllers its a Mag 3, not enough to instantly sleep a boss. On a perma-Dominator it's Mag 6 and I would never, ever skip it, except maybe on a character designed to run only carefully controlled farm maps or something, If it were Mag 3.5 it would basically bring to Controllers what Dominators already have, a reliable, fast, and discreet Sleep. On perma-Dominators it would be Mag 7 and sleep even natural Elite Bosses.

 

Static Field is described elsewhere on this thread. 

 

In both cases, if you only ever play on teams and never solo, the true value of these two powers may not be apparent. I am fine with there being powers that soloist take and teamers sometimes skip.

 

I don't think either Plant or Earth deserve a power quite as good as Mass Hyp or Static Field. That people sometimes skip these powers doesn't make them useless. The Plant one, with its 45 second recharge, is actually not a bad power currently, especially on Dominators (again, Mag 6). You can use it to Sleep a mob before running at them with Seeds of Confusion. Not what every player is looking for, but not terrible, except that on Controllers it won't reliably Sleep the bosses. If it did, I would definitely take so when solo I could make sure I didn't eat an alpha shot from the boss when I ran in.

 

Flash Freeze is actually not quite terrible in its context of Ice Control. It's the only ranged mezz Ice Control even has. Its suckiness relates mainly to its recharge time (90 seconds), At Mag 3.5, if the Recharge were also made reasonable, I would definitely take it.

 

Earth is the only I am less sure of. Mainly I'd make it Mag 3.5 just for consistency. Earth doesn't need or deserve more control.

[QuiJon]

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

If it were Mag 3.5 it would basically bring to Controllers what Dominators already have, a reliable, fast, and discreet Sleep. On perma-Dominators it would be Mag 7 and sleep even natural Elite Bosses.

 

But controllers are NOT dominators. They have totally different builds. So you are trying to equate something that a controller IMO should not have, which is a control that when domination is running does equal duty to what a dominator can do. I can see the point on a dominator, maybe, because lets face it, dominators are a damage class sort of. Controllers are buffers and debuffers. Taking the extra time to apply it twice should be needed, otherwise you get the defense mitigation of having dominators inherent PLUS the mitigation of possible buffs, debuffs etc from your own secondaries. And it is fair to allow a Dominator to sleep if they choose to that mob because they are going to be waking up mobs with attacks and DONT have that other mitigation.

 

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

In both cases, if you only ever play on teams and never solo, the true value of these two powers may not be apparent. I am fine with there being powers that soloist take and teamers sometimes skip.

I can solo just about any content put in front of me (short of having EBs or AVs in a mission) with my plant/stone perma dom now. Without a sleep running +4/8. You don't need these powers to solo either. I used to use my mind/psi dominator to farm back on live with no sleep power on it. Be it solo or on a  team you are always better off using that power choice to stack your own defenses and resistances then to take a useless control that doesn't hold up through an attack. Yes Mass Confusion has a longer recharge, but you only need that one power to control a mob. The next mob use your AOE hold, then the next mob mass confusion is up again. Oh and that boss, well mind has a single target hold, and a single target confuse, I am pretty sure that was done for a reason to give you that ability to stack enough confuse or hold on a boss to subdue it within 2 attacks on the mob. 

I mean really here is the thing, earth like you said, doesn't need it, but really doesn't need to be changed either so just skip it. Plant most certainly doesn't need it with the fast recharge on seeds of confusion it is a complete waste of time, power choice, and slotting to take it. Ice in my limited experience I thought like you that it seemed was weak on control options so I took it, and really never used it. Used the confuse aura, the AOE hold, and ice slick was honestly the go to control in that set at the level I got to. And Mind with its duplication of confuse and hold AOE and STs, you don't need it either. I get what you are saying that you like it. I get that I would not really care if they changed it because frankly I still would not take them. But the basis of the argument is that it makes them worthwhile and it doesn't. And infact in some ways it makes them way encroach when changed on a controller to what a Dominator is able to do without giving the dominators any compensation for losing some luster. Essentially you want to be able to hold a boss with a single application, however you don't think that mag levels and mag in powers were put where they were for a reason, that the game doesn't think you should be able to single target sleep a boss with an AOE power? Or a EB even with domination running? 

Just in my opinion it is a solution to a non-problem to begin with, and one that honestly kind of breaks the dynamic of how control functions in the game. I mean what is next then? Why cant controls like hold and confuse be mag 3.5 also. I mean a sleep can take out a boss with a single use why should a hold or a confuse not be able to also? 

[oedipus_tex]

3 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

But controllers are NOT dominators. They have totally different builds. So you are trying to equate something that a controller IMO should not have, which is a control that when domination is running does equal duty to what a dominator can do. I can see the point on a dominator, maybe, because lets face it, dominators are a damage class sort of. Controllers are buffers and debuffers. Taking the extra time to apply it twice should be needed, otherwise you get the defense mitigation of having dominators inherent PLUS the mitigation of possible buffs, debuffs etc from your own secondaries. And it is fair to allow a Dominator to sleep if they choose to that mob because they are going to be waking up mobs with attacks and DONT have that other mitigation.

 

 

The Sleep is Mag 6 in Domination mode only. That's part of why I want to be Mag 3.5. It would ease the step-off between perma and non-perma Doms and give any Dominator (or Controller) at least one AoE guaranteed to mezz a full spawn whether in or out of Domination. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[Dark Current]

I think the solution to all the AoE sleeps is not upping the magnitude, but to give them the same treatment as electric control's sleep. Static Field is both control and debuff that reapplies its effect every couple seconds.

 

What if Ice's Flash Freeze was a super cool patch that slept and slowed anyone who entered?

 

Earth's Salt Crystals was a fossilizing patch that slept and crystallized anyone who entered, lowering their def?

 

Plant's sleep spores created a lingering cloud that slept and debuffed regeneration?

 

Mind's sleep I think is okay as a click, but I'd add in a -rch or -dmg debuff when the creature is awakened.

 

Overall numbers are kept the same, but the mechanics are altered with debuff side effects added.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Dark Current

[QuiJon]

15 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

The Sleep is Mag 6 in Domination mode only. That's part of why I want to be Mag 3.5. It would ease the step-off between perma and non-perma Doms and give any Dominator (or Controller) at least one AoE guaranteed to mezz a full spawn whether in or out of Domination. 

Look, if we go back to the previous conversations, if we wanted to change the way they work to be like the electric sleep I don't really care. I still don't see taking or caring about the powers, it doesn't fundamentally change the way the control aspects of the game are balanced. Upping the mag does. 

I get that a dominator only in perma dom is gonna have that mez ability. However in perma dom, you have that ability to hold, confuse or stun all in AOE form and all on the character that has enough recharge to make needing a sleep AOE moot anyway. But that is a commitment to build and buy the pieces to do it. Just as it is a commitment to build out a controller. And IMO this is how it should be. The base characters should not be expecting to hold an ENTIRE mob including a boss with one AOE power off the shelf. 

This has nothing to do with making a sleep power more useful It has to do with wanting to have a power that can operate in such a way that the only comparison would be a perma-dom can effect a mob and control it. And you want that ability with a stock, off the shelf power with no other enhancements needed. And you want it for also controllers. Sure you say look it will help doms also, but lets be clear, most missions in this game DONT include EBs or even AVs. So the benefit to a perma dom is negligible. However every mob a controller faces would suddenly become much much easier. 

Mag works fine as it is now. Sure I would like to see something better then PTOD but otherwise outside of that in standard mission to mission game play it is well balanced. And either you like sleeps or you don't, but they don't need to be increased to Single use hold a boss. Keep in mind the original balance of this game was that a boss was equivalent to a player. If you were in PVP would you like your entire team to be taken out and put to sleep with ONE application of a sleep AOE from someone? Cause essentially that is the balance then you are requesting in PVE. 

I am fine if you want to change the mechanics or add buffs or debuffs that exceed the sleep duration. I am not fine changing the mag of the powers. 

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Dark Current said:

I think the solution to all the AoE sleeps is not upping the magnitude, but to give them the same treatment as electric control's sleep. Static Field is both control and debuff that reapplies its effect every couple seconds.

 

What if Ice's Flash Freeze was a super cool patch that slept and slowed anyone who entered?

 

Earth's Salt Crystals was a fossilizing patch that slept and crystallized anyone who entered, lowering their def?

 

Plant's sleep spores created a lingering cloud that slept and debuffed regeneration?

 

Mind's sleep I think is okay as a click, but I'd add in a -rch or -dmg debuff when the creature is awakened.

 

Overall numbers are kept the same, but the mechanics are altered with debuff side effects added.

 

 

That's not a terrible idea. I think it's been suggested a few times.

 

The downside to it is that Static Field does not benefit from Domination. It would either need a treatment similar to Dark Control's Shadow Field (a burst of Sleep right at the beginning that is +Mag 3 in Domination mode) or to be an effect applied directly to the critter that is delayed like in my fourth post. In the case of Mind Control especially, losing the Mag 6 Sleep in Domination mode would be damaging to some builds.

I'd have to see debuff values before agreeing or disagreeing with whether they are a good idea. Static Field has a minor Endurance buff but it's not a reason to pick the power. It's a good power because it requires almost no slotting and the Sleep is effective when used in appropriate circumstances. That power is in a very good place overall, being both skippable and not skippable depending on your build preferences.

[Dark Current]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

That's not a terrible idea. I think it's been suggested a few times.

 

The downside to it is that Static Field does not benefit from Domination. It would either need a treatment similar to Dark Control's Shadow Field (a burst of Sleep right at the beginning that is +Mag 3 in Domination mode) or to be an effect applied directly to the critter that is delayed like in my fourth post. In the case of Mind Control especially, losing the Mag 6 Sleep in Domination mode would be damaging to some builds.

I'd have to see debuff values before agreeing or disagreeing with whether they are a good idea. Static Field has a minor Endurance buff but it's not a reason to pick the power. It's a good power because it requires almost no slotting and the Sleep is effective when used in appropriate circumstances. That power is in a very good place overall, being both skippable and not skippable depending on your build preferences.

Static Field is a bit more OP than that. It's hands-down the best sleep in the game.

 

From the in-game stats from my lvl 50 controller:
 

• 1.88 endurance on target
• 3.00 magnitude sleep for 25.33s on target 5.00% chance for 1.00 magnitude sleep for 29.06s on target
• 50.00% chance for -3.00%% endurance on target
• -40.00%% run speed for 25.50s on target
• -40.00%% fly speed for 25.50s on target
• -40.00%% jump speed for 25.50s on target
• -40.00%% strength to jump height for 25.50s on target

 

So it does the mag 3 sleep, drains endurance as you mentioned, but also has a pretty hefty slow effect. By comparison, Ice Slick does -90% run spd only and Quick Sand does -50% run and prevents jumping.

 

I find that amount of across the board slow pretty tasty and actually slot mine for slow with dmg proc as well. Keeps the group in place sleeping and slowed while they get slowed (hover in melee running Conductive Aura).

 

If you were to give each of the other AoE sleeps a trifecta like that: some sleep, and 2 different debuffs, they were be really solid. Much better than they are now. I suspect that because they do some minor damage that they were nerfed in effectiveness by design. However, that initial damage actually makes them dangerous to use as you trigger a response attack before the sleep takes hold (that's why mind's AoE sleep is way better).

 

I'd remove that damage in a heartbeat to get something akin to what I proposed above - patch sleeps with debuffs.

 

As far as losing the domination boost... I'd be willing to sacrifice that. I'm pretty confident most doms aren't relying on their AoE sleep (outside of Mind and Elec) as an effective longterm boss control anyway.

[oedipus_tex]

Unfortunately we can't just remove damage from a power that has it, because it's possible to slot damage IOs and procs in those powers. Removing those slotting options after the fact breaks the game.

 

FWIW Ice Control is hungry for damage, so you could potentially increase the damage in that power so it's worth casting as a blast. I'm not sure what ratio of damage to recharge time would be appropriate to make that worthwhile though. The 90 second recharge time on that power certainly seems excessive. It feels like it should be closer to 20s.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Current said:

As far as losing the domination boost... I'd be willing to sacrifice that. I'm pretty confident most doms aren't relying on their AoE sleep (outside of Mind and Elec) as an effective longterm boss control anyway.

 

I don't think it would be fair to nerf the power that way on established builds. A specific reason some people take Mass Hypnosis is to discretely Sleep mobs. You could achieve a patch-like effect without an actual patch by having the Sleep effect attach to the critter and reapply itself at set intervals. 

 

Some other ways you could do these powers are:

• The Sleep is a toggle like Telekinesis (note: TK does increase Mag in Domination mode)
• The Sleep has a secondary effect if the Sleep is still active after X seconds
  • E.g:
    • 100% Chance for Mag 3.5 Sleep
    • 100% Chance for Mag 3 Stun after 1.5 seconds (only on targets who are Sleeping)
• The Sleep causes enemies to fall over
  • E.g.
    • 100% Chance for Mag .035 Knockback
    • 100% Chance for Mag 3.5 Sleep after .025 seconds
       

 

 

[SaddestGhost]

On 12/10/2019 at 2:15 PM, Dark Current said:

I think the solution to all the AoE sleeps is not upping the magnitude, but to give them the same treatment as electric control's sleep. Static Field is both control and debuff that reapplies its effect every couple seconds.

 

What if Ice's Flash Freeze was a super cool patch that slept and slowed anyone who entered?

 

Earth's Salt Crystals was a fossilizing patch that slept and crystallized anyone who entered, lowering their def?

 

Plant's sleep spores created a lingering cloud that slept and debuffed regeneration?

 

Mind's sleep I think is okay as a click, but I'd add in a -rch or -dmg debuff when the creature is awakened.

 

Overall numbers are kept the same, but the mechanics are altered with debuff side effects added.

Flash Freeze applies its sleep after a very slight delay that allows the damage to take place.  I wonder if that effect could be used to create an effect similar, but less powerful, than Static Field's.   It wouldn't affect enemies that were initially missed, but it could reapply a broken sleep or stack enough to affect a boss.

 

Looking at Spore Burst, for example, it has a 22.35 second duration.  So it could be given a 20% chance to apply a second mag 3 sleep after 3 seconds, then an additional 20% chance at 6 seconds, and a final chance 20% chance after 11 seconds.  Each tick of sleep would have a lower duration so as to not extend the overall duration of the power beyond its original duration.

[oedipus_tex]

4 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

Flash Freeze applies its sleep after a very slight delay that allows the damage to take place.  I wonder if that effect could be used to create an effect similar, but less powerful, than Static Field's.   It wouldn't affect enemies that were initially missed, but it could reapply a broken sleep or stack enough to affect a boss.

 

Looking at Spore Burst, for example, it has a 22.35 second duration.  So it could be given a 20% chance to apply a second mag 3 sleep after 3 seconds, then an additional 20% chance at 6 seconds, and a final chance 20% chance after 11 seconds.  Each tick of sleep would have a lower duration so as to not extend the overall duration of the power beyond its original duration.

 

 

Yes, that's the mechanic I was referring to above. Effects can be applied immediately or after a delay. You see this in a number of powers, including any Damage power that also includes a Sleep. The Sleep is delayed to prevent the Damage from waking the enemy. There's no reason I'm aware of that you couldn't create a series of Sleep effects that trigger every few seconds.