Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[oedipus_tex]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Many avenues to soft cap.

 

Do you mean with IOs and so on? Yes, those avenues exist. I've spent a lot of time making builds to eke out various advantages. It's fun because its challenging on other sets.

 

Farsight is not challenging. 3-4 powers, 2 IOs. No armor set exists with those values because it destroys the competition. While there's more to consider to a buff set than just that, that's before we've even brought in the other 8 powers in the set, or the fact that these armor values are carrying over to other players. 

 

I don't think its fair to say that Defense just doesn't matter though because you can get it from IOs. People spend a lot of time figuring out combinations of IOs to get Defense. Just not with Time Manipulation because it hands it to you without investment or effort.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Do you mean with IOs and so on? Yes, those avenues exist. I've spent a lot of time making builds to eke out various advantages. It's fun because its challenging on other sets.

 

Farsight is not challenging. 3-4 powers, 2 IOs. No armor set exists with those values because it destroys the competition. While there's more to consider to a buff set than just that, that's before we've even brought in the other 8 powers in the set, or the fact that these armor values are carrying over to other players. 

 

I don't think its fair to say that Defense just doesn't matter though because you can get it from IOs. People spend a lot of time figuring out combinations of IOs to get Defense. Just not with Time Manipulation because it hands it to you without investment or effort.

Thats because they function differently, with various other protections.

 

I cant tell if you are cherry picking to prove your point or just not understanding the difference here.

 

EVERY armor set out there is more durable than farsight is becuase they all work together to complete the set.

 

With farsight you have to cobble it together with stealth or maneuvers, cj, weave set bonuses etc. No DDR no mez protection any of that.

 

Its not Even close.

 

And time isnt a no brainer like you are making it out to be.  You Still have to kill things and control them other things go into a build other than damage mitigation.

[Mopery]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

That would involve changing most of the power system so that you could track external buff durations on clicks just to avoid setting a flag to true that already exists on two powers.

 

Sure, you can do it. It would just be one of the biggest wastes of time you could possibly invest.

Would it involve all of that, though? Per my example, Build Up and Aim are external buffs which last short term even on toggle powers like damage auras. I'm not a programmer, but it seems there must already be a way to "track external buff durations on clicks".

 

[siolfir]

Just now, Mopery said:

Would it involve all of that, though? Per my example, Build Up and Aim are external buffs which last short term even on toggle powers like damage auras. I'm not a programmer, but it seems there must already be a way to "track external buff durations on clicks".

 

The external buffs are tracked at activation and last the full duration of the power. Toggles refresh every so often (typically every 0.5 to 2 seconds) with a very short duration, and that counts as a new activation.

[Mopery]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Good question. IMO they shouldn't do this because Power Boost's interaction with Fortitude (Empathy) and especially Deflection Shield (Force Field) was a selling point for these sets. Like, the only reason Force Field players haven't mutinied is that Power Boosted Force Fields are a thing. On an iTrial a Force Fielder can Power Boost his or her Force Fields and the whole team has good defense. Other than AoE mezz protection Force Field brings little else to an iTrial.

So to paraphrase, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander? What works for two of the powersets most in need of some balancing love is fine, but if it affects other sets there's something wrong with it. Perhaps those sets should be buffed rather than nerfing other sets? Most players won't complain if a powerset is buffed, but unholy Hell is usually unleashed upon those who call for nerfs. Just saying. 😄

[oedipus_tex]

8 minutes ago, Mopery said:

So to paraphrase, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander? What works for two of the powersets most in need of some balancing love is fine, but if it affects other sets there's something wrong with it. Perhaps those sets should be buffed rather than nerfing other sets? Most players won't complain if a powerset is buffed, but unholy Hell is usually unleashed upon those who call for nerfs. Just saying. 😄

 

What gooses and what ganders? 😉 Force Field cannot self cast its shields. It doesn't just follow the rule. It set the rule. Power Boost and its effect on Force Field isn't an accident, it was the result of (at the time) heated debate.

 

I did manage to think of two additional exceptions to the basic rule though. I am not 100% sure these work with Power Boost, but they might:

• Vengeance. Requires a dead teammate and breaks every rule of everything. Probably not worth taking Power Boost just to use when someone dies.  300 second cooldown and 120 second duration. Technically perma-able, but, uh.... 🙂
• Unleash Potential. 600 second cooldown and 60 second duration. 600/4 = 150 second Recharge under perfect conditions with maxed out +400% Recharge. More likely recharge is around +200% on a finished build, so around a 200 second recharge or so.

 

Neither has the same signature as Farsight though. Farsight has a 240 recharge with a 120 duration. Also requires no dead people to cast. 

[Leogunner]

31 minutes ago, Mopery said:

So to paraphrase, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander? What works for two of the powersets most in need of some balancing love is fine, but if it affects other sets there's something wrong with it. Perhaps those sets should be buffed rather than nerfing other sets? Most players won't complain if a powerset is buffed, but unholy Hell is usually unleashed upon those who call for nerfs. Just saying. 😄

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding.  The reason it's fine for those two example sets (Force Field and Empathy) is because the click buffs you're combining with Power Boost do not affect the user.  And Empathy player can't cast Fortitude on themselves.  The argument being made is likely that these click powers (Fade and Farsight) affect the user and when combined with Power Boost, give near equivalent mitigation as an armor powerset sans the mez protection.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I cant tell if you are cherry picking to prove your point or just not understanding the difference here.

The problem is, cherry picking isn't required here as he's speaking on a specific power interaction and has provided specific reactions and your defense seems to be merely to deflect the reasoning presented to you and pretend like someone is crazy and talking gibberish.

 

Why not just state that you disagree that having that power combination which would be available to the user often enough to be substantial up-time is fine and you see nothing wrong with it?  There's no reason to pretend that the 20ish% defense of SR isn't similar to the 20ish% defense of Farsight.  You bring up defense debuff resist which is spread across multiple SR powers but at that point, all you have to do is start noting the various HoTs and debuff effects in TM.  If that's too complicated of a comparison, use Ninjutsu which has debuffs and control effects in exchange for less defense and debuff resist.

 

I can understand your position but your reasoning is whack.  Again, it's like using the whole "everybody else is doing it!" excuse and then gaslighting other people, like the words coming from our keyboards are some bizarro alien non-sense.  I'm surprise you've kept this going for so long.  Lol he's only telling them to fix a bug and to nip an incongruity in the bud before people whine that Fade is useless and it's unfair that TM keeps Farsight.  Not that the predicted whining actually matters but you know people will complain because nerf.  

Edited January 5, 2020 by Leogunner

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding.  The reason it's fine for those two example sets (Force Field and Empathy) is because the click buffs you're combining with Power Boost do not affect the user.  And Empathy player can't cast Fortitude on themselves.  The argument being made is likely that these click powers (Fade and Farsight) affect the user and when combined with Power Boost, give near equivalent mitigation as an armor powerset sans the mez protection.

 

The problem is, cherry picking isn't required here as he's speaking on a specific power interaction and has provided specific reactions and your defense seems to be merely to deflect the reasoning presented to you and pretend like someone is crazy and talking gibberish.

 

Why not just state that you disagree that having that power combination which would be available to the user often enough to be substantial up-time is fine and you see nothing wrong with it?  There's no reason to pretend that the 20ish% defense of SR isn't similar to the 20ish% defense of Farsight.  You bring up defense debuff resist which is spread across multiple SR powers but at that point, all you have to do is start noting the various HoTs and debuff effects in TM.  If that's too complicated of a comparison, use Ninjutsu which has debuffs and control effects in exchange for less defense and debuff resist.

 

I can understand your position but your reasoning is whack.  Again, it's like using the whole "everybody else is doing it!" excuse and then gaslighting other people, like the words coming from our keyboards are some bizarro alien non-sense.  I'm surprise you've kept this going for so long.  Lol he's only telling them to fix a bug and to nip an incongruity in the bud before people whine that Fade is useless and it's unfair that TM keeps Farsight.  Not that the predicted whining actually matters but you know people will complain because nerf.  

Oh I understand just fine, but you obviously do not.

 

You can't compare a set like SR which is infinitely more survivable than the farsight+pb combo or any other layered defense you can add to it either.  Even Ninjitsu is far more survivable than that combo.  Hell chronoshift by itself is better than that combo.

 

Keep on thinking you can.  I don't care.

 

And I dont think you or anyone are talking gibberish.  You are making completely misguided sense and in your case throwing in a splash of jerk while you are at It. I mean disagreeing is fine but trying to belittle me or make me seem stupid is completely unnecessary, but I'm sure like before you will hide again and pretend like I'm misreading you or it never happened.

 

It isn't a bug its working as intended.  Y'all are just missing the point of this really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[Infinitum]

51 minutes ago, Mopery said:

So to paraphrase, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander? What works for two of the powersets most in need of some balancing love is fine, but if it affects other sets there's something wrong with it. Perhaps those sets should be buffed rather than nerfing other sets? Most players won't complain if a powerset is buffed, but unholy Hell is usually unleashed upon those who call for nerfs. Just saying. 😄

Makes too much sense, feeling have been hurt so nerf nerf nerf.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Oh I understand just fine, but you obviously do not.

 

You can't compare a set like SR which is infinitely more survivable than the farsight+pb combo or any other layered defense you can add to it either.  Even Ninjitsu is far more survivable than that combo.  Hell chronoshift by itself is better than that combo.

Apparently you don't understand.  Even getting near either of those sets with just those 2 powers is the problem.  You still have the rest of the TM set! Furthermore, SR and Ninjutsu are ARMOR sets on ARMORED ATs meant to be sturdy.  Support ATs are meant to keep themselves standing with buffed teammates, debuffs and/or controls, not armor.  And while you can mention IOs setting up these ATs to be armored juggernaughts, that is deflecting the argument to IOs...a bunch of "what about"-ism that I can see through but you seem adamant on adopting as your primary argument.

[oedipus_tex]

First of all I want to apologize to anyone if it seems like I've been short with you. I am enjoying this discussion. I am assuming everyone participating is making their arguments based on good faith efforts.

 

 

I also wanted to talk a little about Fade, since so much of the conversation already addresses Farsight. 

 

As mentioned previously, Fade is bugged. The Resistance of the power receives buffs from +Damage. In normal play you probably wouldn't notice this too much, because the developers lucked out by giving Fade to Controllers but not Defenders. Controllers don't get a lot of +Damage in their primaries (no Aim/Build Up) and Power Boost comes in a pool with no +Damage powers. So far so gooduntil you eat a lot of Reds or team up with Kinetics.

 

If you should find yourself inside a Fulcrum Shift things get interesting.

 

After level 20, Controller Damage caps at +400%. Fade has 9.4% Slash and Lethal Resistance. So we get 9.4 x 4 = 37.6 Slash/Lethal resistance.

 

I get a little confused when trying to figure out how the bug will affect Fade if Fade is slotted for Resist. I am not sure where the multiplier looks for a value to multiply. But a safe guess is that Fade will provide +50% or so Resistance. 😉

 

Of course, a Dark Affinity Controller probably doesn't spend much time at Damage Cap. 

 

The developers seriously dodged a bullet here. If Fade had been available to Defenders, Defender could pop Aim for +60% global damage with a high chance of a Build Up proc adding +100% more. Then Power Boost for double defenses, then cast a version of Fade with both Defender-strength Defense and Resistance.  

 

 

By the way, I never bothered to check because I figured it would be ridiculous for the power to have Defense Debuff Resistance, but it turns out Fade does. Fade provides 35% DDR at level 50. 😄

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[GM Mathison]

Let's try to avoid attacking one another as this is starting to get close in that direction. There are a few valid viewpoints on this topic.

Some ideas to consider on this is the interaction of powers here. Power Boost was always meant to boost Defense powers. It does this for the duration for the power and these last 90 and 120 seconds so can be a long time. You can flag powers to be unenhancible but then why just those two powers and not other click defense powers?

 

On the other side these two powers are newer and are AoE buffs were as other click buffs that have been used as examples were single target ally only. Is there a need for these to be target only and not self targetable? That has always seemed inconsistent.

 

Given what single other ATs can do with their Armor sets and pools would these powers really unbalance things further or is there a gap with these other powers that can't self target?

[siolfir]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You can't compare a set like SR which is infinitely more survivable than the farsight+pb combo or any other layered defense you can add to it either.  Even Ninjitsu is far more survivable than that combo.  Hell chronoshift by itself is better than that combo.

 

Keep on thinking you can.  I don't care.

 

And I dont think you or anyone are talking gibberish.  You are making completely misguided sense and in your case throwing in a splash of jerk while you are at It. I mean disagreeing is fine but trying to belittle me or make me seem stupid is completely unnecessary, but I'm sure like before you will hide again and pretend like I'm misreading you or it never happened.

 

It isn't a bug its working as intended.  Y'all are just missing the point of this really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, infinitely more survivable - after all, Super Reflexes characters never die, right? Ever? Because that's the only way your b******t hyperbole holds true. And I would argue that a well-built and remotely-competently played Time Manipulation character - even without Power Boosted Farsight - is just as survivable as either Super Reflexes or Ninjitsu.

 

As for the bug... uhm, yes, there isn't a bug. It's not working as intended, the +resistance being affected by +damage in Fade is a bug, and should be fixed. It is far more egregious than the lack of a defense crash in Rage. There isn't a bug with regard to Farsight, but it's inconsistent with similar self-affecting powers.

 

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The developers seriously dodged a bullet here. If Fade had been available to Defenders, Defender could pop Aim for +60% global damage, Power Boost for double defenses, then cast a version of Fade with both Defender-strength Defense and Resistance.  

Or they could use Power Build Up, which already provides +68% damage and comes in an APP with additional +res powers to stack it with. Throw in Aim for more silliness if you want.

 

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Apparently you don't understand.  Even getting near either of those sets with just those 2 powers is the problem.  You still have the rest of the TM set! Furthermore, SR and Ninjutsu are ARMOR sets on ARMORED ATs meant to be sturdy.  Support ATs are meant to keep themselves standing with buffed teammates, debuffs and/or controls, not armor.  And while you can mention IOs setting up these ATs to be armored juggernaughts, that is deflecting the argument to IOs...a bunch of "what about"-ism that I can see through but you seem adamant on adopting as your primary argument.

You ARENT getting near them though - not in total survivability - what difference does it make if the numbers are the same if it wont keep you alive? - thats the point.  which you have missed.   many many times.  If you calculate DDR into the equation, along with various status protections, they arent remotely similar or even in the same league.

 

Like i said before I gain more out of chronoshift in the grand scheme of things than farsight.

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Yes, infinitely more survivable - after all, Super Reflexes characters never die, right? Ever? Because that's the only way your b******t hyperbole holds true. And I would argue that a well-built and remotely-competently played Time Manipulation character - even without Power Boosted Farsight - is just as survivable as either Super Reflexes or Ninjitsu.

 

As for the bug... uhm, yes, there isn't a bug. It's not working as intended, the +resistance being affected by +damage in Fade is a bug, and should be fixed. It is far more egregious than the lack of a defense crash in Rage. There isn't a bug with regard to Farsight, but it's inconsistent with similar self-affecting powers.

 

Or they could use Power Build Up, which already provides +68% damage and comes in an APP with additional +res powers to stack it with. Throw in Aim for more silliness if you want.

 

You are seriously comparing the survivability of a SR character to these troller sets? 

 

ok GO do the monster island herd test on ANY time character,  you pick,  tell me how it goes.

 

SR can do it.  So can Ninjitsu.

Edited January 5, 2020 by GM Mathison
Removing insulting language

[Leogunner]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Like i said before I gain more out of chronoshift in the grand scheme of things than farsight.

That is a damned hyperbole and you know it.  Besides, you don't have to compare Farsight to Chrono shift.  Time Manipulation gets both.

 

As for your other statement, I'd say you have to prove it.  I know defense debuffs are pretty common but how long do they last and under what conditions are you looking at to try and recover from them?  So you get cascaded down to under the soft cap for defense...can you not hold those targets for longer than the duration of that debuff?  Can you not use Heal over Time to patch the damage?  And can you not use slows to decrease the frequency of those debuffs coming in?  Then stack that with the control of your primary and frankly, I don't see how you could think your argument has a leg to stand on.

 

Can SR or Ninjutsu do any of that?  Ninjutsu can heal to patch the damage but what about the other stuff?

 

 

[Infinitum]

My grav/time lasted about 2:30 sec with four GM herded, - longer than i thought, and held up well but once defense failed it cascaded hard and i was down in 3 hits - I could have made it longer if i stayed at range, but you wont do that with any Melee SR or Nin character - even a Sent would hold up better than this.

 

On SR that doesnt happen.  On Ninjitsu that doesnt happen.

 

Like I said you cant compare the 2.

 

Oranges and apples and such.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Leogunner said:

That is a damned hyperbole and you know it.  Besides, you don't have to compare Farsight to Chrono shift.  Time Manipulation gets both.

 

As for your other statement, I'd say you have to prove it.  I know defense debuffs are pretty common but how long do they last and under what conditions are you looking at to try and recover from them?  So you get cascaded down to under the soft cap for defense...can you not hold those targets for longer than the duration of that debuff?  Can you not use Heal over Time to patch the damage?  And can you not use slows to decrease the frequency of those debuffs coming in?  Then stack that with the control of your primary and frankly, I don't see how you could think your argument has a leg to stand on.

 

Can SR or Ninjutsu do any of that?  Ninjutsu can heal to patch the damage but what about the other stuff?

 

 

It isnt a hyperbole, its a statement of fact that I utilize Chronoshift to my benefit more than Farsight and PB, thats my personal preference, and playstyle.  I wasnt comparing the two just stating that chronoshift is a far more useful power IMO in the set.

 

Go see how many GM you can herd with a grav time then.  See if you can do any better.

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

It isnt a hyperbole, its a statement of fact that I utilize Chronoshift to my benefit more than Farsight and PB, thats my personal preference, and playstyle.  I wasnt comparing the two just stating that chronoshift is a far more useful power IMO in the set.

 

Go see how many GM you can herd with a grav time then.  See if you can do any better.

So then in your GM example, you weren't using Power Boost (or Power Build Up, as the case may be)?

[Infinitum]

Just now, Leogunner said:

So then in your GM example, you weren't using Power Boost (or Power Build Up, as the case may be)?

No i was using that and Chronoshift.  without DDR you will cascade on SR or Nin thats not going to happen.  they will probably get you eventually but will take a lot longer.  Go to a hybrid like shield and you can pretty much survive indefinately to the Herd challenge.  Im sure there are SR players that could survive it indefinately too but SR isnt my forte in melee - shield is and ninjitsu is my second choice.

[oedipus_tex]

17 minutes ago, GM Mathison said:

Let's try to avoid attacking one another as this is starting to get close in that direction. There are a few valid viewpoints on this topic.

Some ideas to consider on this is the interaction of powers here. Power Boost was always meant to boost Defense powers. It does this for the duration for the power and these last 90 and 120 seconds so can be a long time. You can flag powers to be unenhancible but then why just those two powers and not other click defense powers?

 

On the other side these two powers are newer and are AoE buffs were as other click buffs that have been used as examples were single target ally only. Is there a need for these to be target only and not self targetable? That has always seemed inconsistent.

 

Given what single other ATs can do with their Armor sets and pools would these powers really unbalance things further or is there a gap with these other powers that can't self target?

 

 

Good observations.

 

I do think Farsight should still be able to benefit from its own +Defense buff and that part not changed. +12.5% Defense is extremely good, but not necessarily unreasonable. It's the Power Boost part that I think needs review, because it trips over what is reasonable for the personal Defense for a Defender/Controller/MM.

 

Farsight belongs to a class of powers you might call "Gather Powers." These are the powers that some teammates will post ***GATHER FOR XXXX POWER**** and most of the team ignores them 🙂. Examples exist in Radiation and Empathy. Time has 2: Farsight and Chrono Shift. Gather Powers typically affect the caster and all teammates. In that sense, Farsight is not out of alignment. It's a gather power that provides defense instead of regen, recovery, etc.

 

Chrono Shift benefits from Power Boost from what I can remember (I can look into this). The reason I haven't bothered to look too closely though is that for the most part Power Boosted endurance, healing, etc, doesn't have an outsized impact. The system for which it has an outsize impact is Defense. 

 

There are a lot of reasons for this. But the biggest is that when Power Boost multiplies a powers effect it ignores the schedule of enhancements. Defense enhancements are Schedule B (25.5%). Endurance Modification is Schedule A (42.4). Power Boost multiplies them both by the same amount. So any time you can Power Boost a Defense power the multipier shoots the Defense numbers far higher than you could achieve with enhancements or gathering up a bunch of other Defense powers. It basically gives you a second copy of the power.

 

 

The original general arrangement was that Power Boost was allowed for a Defense power on 2 major conditions:

• It was fine with toggles (Dispersion Bubble, Force Field Generator) because it was temporary.
• It was fine with ally or pet buff powers (Deflection Shield, Fortitude) because it was always the role of Defenders, Controllers, and Masterminds to provide higher value Defense to teammates and pets than to themselves. This balanced Power Boost as a choice versus a more 'selfish' power selection. 

There were originally few instances of defense buffs that affect the caster outside of armor toggles. Even Dispersion Bubble is basically a form of armor toggle that hits an area instead of just the owner. 

 

Other than Vengeance, the earliest examples of such a power was Link Minds (Dominator Psi APP), a derivative of Mind Link (Arachnos Widow). Dominators have 4 sets with Power Boost effects so Link Minds was specifically designed not to be susceptible to external effects. That's the power I'd look to in your balancing.

[Infinitum]

so in similar grav/time herd attempts   24 seconds, 38 seconds, 2:44, and 3:28   once they hold you its over.  once they hit you hard enough its over.

[siolfir]

29 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

My grav/time lasted about 2:30 sec with four GM herded, - longer than i thought, and held up well but once defense failed it cascaded hard and i was down in 3 hits - I could have made it longer if i stayed at range, but you wont do that with any Melee SR or Nin character - even a Sent would hold up better than this.

 

On SR that doesnt happen.  On Ninjitsu that doesnt happen.

 

Like I said you cant compare the 2.

 

Oranges and apples and such.

Not really sure what the challenge is supposed to be beyond "herd as many GMs as you can as long as you can"? Made it to 8:57 with 7 GMs on my Ice/Time Corruptor in the Abyss on Reunion, who had been safe enough I thought I'd be fine going afk to post this instead of paying attention to the clicks. It took about a minute after I swapped windows to die with my not doing anything but standing there. When I was actually paying attention to the game, my hp dropped below half a few times from some lucky hits, but my defense was consistently in the 50s and I had multiple self heals to counteract what came through. I probably could have gathered more, but didn't want some losing attention while I was trying to get more, so just herded them to a bridge that was in the middle of 4 spawns.

 

Overall, I think I took more damage from the swarms than the GMs. You're welcome to come watch if you don't buy it, but right now I'd say your problem with Time is part build and possibly play, not the set.

Edited January 5, 2020 by siolfir

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Not really sure what the challenge is supposed to be beyond "herd as many GMs as you can as long as you can"? Made it to 8:57 with 7 GMs on my Ice/Time Corruptor in the Abyss on Reunion, who had been safe enough I thought I'd be fine going afk to post this instead of paying attention to the clicks. It took about a minute after I swapped windows to die with my not doing anything but standing there. When I was actually paying attention to the game, my hp dropped below half a few times from some lucky hits, but my defense was consistently in the 50s and I had multiple self heals to counteract what came through. I probably could have gathered more, but didn't want some losing attention while I was trying to get more, so just herded them to a bridge that was in the middle of 4 spawns.

 

Overall, I think I took more damage from the swarms than the GMs. You're welcome to come watch if you don't buy it, but right now I'd say your problem with Time is part build and possibly play, not the set.

You use any incarnate powers?   

 

What did you do to combat getting held also?

 

What are the multiple self heals?

 

either way you can survive indefinately with SR or Ninjitsu.  ive seen people do it with 12-14 herded.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Infinitum

[GM Mathison]

@oedipus_tex,

 

I think to tackle the perceived problem here is:

• Gather buff powers need to be looked at if they are consistent.
• Ally only powers do they make sense with the current state of the game? If made to Gather buff style would those numbers need adjustment?
• Damage boosting damage resistance granting powers needs to be fixed. This is a problem not unique to Fade.
• Does having this defensive value or if other ally only powers now affect caster if those were to change would that offer too much imbalance to ATs with access to support sets? Again looking at this from the lense that Armor sets can cap their defenses easily.

Also take into account it isn't just the caster that benefits any team mate in range benefits. Most with Armor sets won't care as they are covered. So my question is, what benefit is there to reduce the defense of already less defensive teammates? If it is because other support sets are lacking that same omph then a revisit to support sets as whole might make boosted defense powers seem less like outliers.

 

There are other factors in play here that are being covered in other topics in regards to perceived challenge mobs offer groups and how damage has escalated in the late game. Good suggestions and observations here folks, keep them coming and some of this is going to just be opinion, what one finds easy may not be for another.