Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[oedipus_tex]

18 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I personally view things as risk vs reward. Or at least that is a major contributor to how I view balance.

So for me fulcrum, while ludicrous, is ok because you need to face down 10+ enemies for it to be ludicrous. And you need to do it often, on a set with little personal mitigation.

 

Farsight and in particular, pb+farsight, entails rolling your face across the keyboard once every 2 min. If CoH is easy, then pb+fs is the hello kitty difficulty setting.

 

People say, "but the VEAT's can mind link." yes they can. But people probably don't realize that mind link is bugged. The power is not supposed to be benefiting from recharge slotting. It doesn't accept recharge enhancements. So the fact that def/rech IO's are boosting it is not working as intended (note I play a widow, i'd be ok if this was fixed, but I'm not worried about it). So fortunatas should really struggle to perma mind link. NW's with a good IO build could. Definitely not with just SO slotting like a time manipulation heh. 

 

If fulcrum was a "gather for" buff that gave +200% damage and lasted 2 min, I think most people would think that was OP, but maybe not...

 

You make excellent points.

 

I think you're right about the difference between Fulcrum being just a click for insta-capped damage, versus what it is, a fairly risky power. 

 

By the way, do I remember correctly that you used to play an Illusion/Cold Controller and were one of the folks who used to share builds for that combo back in the day on the Controller forums? 

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I also acknowledge that there exists an informal "Kinetics rule" for Buff sets. If Kinetics came out tomorrow and no one had seen it before, we would probably think it is overpowered because of the capped Damage. The value is allowed mainly because it is grandfathered. The Buff/Debuff sets are supposed to offer powerful buffs and some pushing of boundaries, as with Kinetics. But this powerful? 

The thing about Kinetics is, back in the day, it didn't seem too out of whack because it doesn't provide much (if any) means of survival and the amount of AoE damage had limitations (crashing nukes, melee sets with mostly ST attacks, no IOs to increase damage and recharge).  What makes Kinetics even more OP than it was is everything else which is why I'd say it's grandfathered in.  Now that players throw around nukes like nothing, sets with strong amounts of AoE and filling survival limitations with IOs, yeah, I don't think a new modern day Kinetics release would come with a lot of flack.

 

 

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The thing about Kinetics is, back in the day, it didn't seem too out of whack because it doesn't provide much (if any) means of survival and the amount of AoE damage had limitations (crashing nukes, melee sets with mostly ST attacks, no IOs to increase damage and recharge).  What makes Kinetics even more OP than it was is everything else which is why I'd say it's grandfathered in.  Now that players throw around nukes like nothing, sets with strong amounts of AoE and filling survival limitations with IOs, yeah, I don't think a new modern day Kinetics release would come with a lot of flack.

 

 

Let's not also forget lower damage caps for most of the ATs (only two original hero ATs have 500% damage caps) and no ED meaning you were closer to the damage cap on your attacks all the time anyway.

[Frosticus]

3 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

By the way, do I remember correctly that you used to play an Illusion/Cold Controller and were one of the folks who used to share builds for that combo back in the day on the Controller forums? 

Indeed, that was one of my premier builds. I rebuilt it first on homecoming, but it didnt enthrall me quite as much as it once did. 

[Bartacus]

I'm honestly shocked by how many people are against a nerf here. PB + FS is broken. Read the thread to see why. I have an incarnated Fire/Time corruptor too, and its disgusting. 

I've seen the suggestion that if PB is removed from FS, it should be buffed somehow. I disagree. The power is plenty strong without it, and the Time Manipulation set is plenty strong without it. I think the people saying this are either having PTSD from having their favorite characters nerfed on live OR they enjoy being overpowered in a game that's already too easy OR they would rather not have to remake a build in Mids. I don't know. 

The other thing I've seen is a constant suggestion to buff other things instead of nerf FS. The problem with this is that the game is already incredibly easy. If we never nerf anything and only buff, the game will inevitably become a snore because it's too easy. It's called power creep. 

I've also seen the suggestion to just increase the difficulty of the game instead of nerf. The problem with this is that it's effectively the same thing, but harder on the devs. Creating either new content or finding some way to increase the difficulty of CoH takes far more time than nerfing the things that are way overpowered anyway. 

Note: This thread is not suggesting that we should put Time Manip in the gutter... or make it 'on par' with FF. Rather, that PB + FS is way too strong, and that even if it was not Power Boostable, it would be strong and Time Manipulation would STILL be one of the best buff/debuff sets in the game. 

[Darkir]

31 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

Note: This thread is not suggesting that we should put Time Manip in the gutter... or make it 'on par' with FF. Rather, that PB + FS is way too strong, and that even if it was not Power Boostable, it would be strong and Time Manipulation would STILL be one of the best buff/debuff sets in the game. 

Yep. PB+Farsight is such an incredible amount of defense to everyone in your team or just yourself when solo that it trivializes builds and content. Not to mention that a time defender can softcap their ENTIRE TEAM by themselves at 50 with radial Clarion+power boost+Farsight providing 45% defense to all. That is absolute madness to have in a single power that affects yourself too. On top of that, it also has +tohit giving everyone full base damage Snipes and likely softcapping their tohit against mobs. 

 

I would be against lowering the base defense of farsight. Mainly for corruptors sake, they only have like 4 secondary sets that are preferable to take on them over a defender and if you care more about buffs a time defender is still preferable. Then you have the proc changes adding to the strength of PB+FS, you no longer have to build for defense with your slots if you are a time/x defender and so you can spend all those slots on procs. I know procs are a seperate issue, but they show how much more you can benefit from PB+FS if you know what you are doing. The interaction between farsight and powerboost (or/and Clarion) is so strong that it trivializes content. The game is easy enough, I'd vote to add some resistance to all to farsight to make it unboostable (this way its also a small, but not inconsequential, buff. Maybe 5% res to all or something).

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Darkir said:

Yep. PB+Farsight is such an incredible amount of defense to everyone in your team or just yourself when solo that it trivializes builds and content. Not to mention that a time defender can softcap their ENTIRE TEAM by themselves at 50 with radial Clarion+power boost+Farsight providing 45% defense to all. That is absolute madness to have in a single power that affects yourself too. On top of that, it also has +tohit giving everyone full base damage Snipes and likely softcapping their tohit against mobs. 

 

I would be against lowering the base defense of farsight. Mainly for corruptors sake, they only have like 4 secondary sets that are preferable to take on them over a defender and if you care more about buffs a time defender is still preferable. Then you have the proc changes adding to the strength of PB+FS, you no longer have to build for defense with your slots if you are a time/x defender and so you can spend all those slots on procs. I know procs are a seperate issue, but they show how much more you can benefit from PB+FS if you know what you are doing. The interaction between farsight and powerboost (or/and Clarion) is so strong that it trivializes content. The game is easy enough, I'd vote to add some resistance to all to farsight to make it unboostable (this way its also a small, but not inconsequential, buff. Maybe 5% res to all or something).

Everyone says this trivializes content, yet each night thousands play without the content feeling trivialized.

 

Maybe because incarnated super powered beings should feel powerful?

 

It's not anymore out of line than any other incarnate buff or AT out there built to the gills for end game fun.

[Frosticus]

3 hours ago, Bartacus said:

It's called power creep. 

Or in this case to bring other sets up it would need to be power leap...

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Darkir said:

 The game is easy enough, I'd vote to add some resistance to all to farsight to make it unboostable (this way its also a small, but not inconsequential, buff. Maybe 5% res to all or something).

While I agree with all your other points here, this is too much. Like 2 or 3% Just to Psi is enough.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

It's not anymore out of line than any other incarnate buff or AT out there built to the gills for end game fun.

Yes, it is.  It has been demonstrated, in this thread, repeatedly.  At this point I think you are intentionally ignoring it.

Edited January 21, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Darkir said:

The game is easy enough, I'd vote to add some resistance to all to farsight to make it unboostable (this way its also a small, but not inconsequential, buff. Maybe 5% res to all or something).

However this is handled, under No circumstances should this bonus to Resistance be ENHANCEABLE.  Time should definitely NOT be able to slot the +Def special IOs without taking an epic Res armor or Tough.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Yes, it is.  It has demonstrated, in this thread, repeatedly.  At this point I think you are intentionally ignoring it.

No I'm not ignoring it.

 

It is OP.

 

What in this game isn't?

 

That is part of What makes it fun for a good portion of the population, and yalls issue with this has no bearing on whether or not the game is fun.  It's a numbers game thats burrowed into your brains and you cant stand it that something is slightly out of line, which isnt by a large margin IMO.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

No I'm not ignoring it.

 

It is OP.

...

 

which isnt by a large margin IMO.

It is OP, yes, and most of the game is not.  Generally the game is pretty well balanced, but outliers should be looked at and YES nerfed because otherwise we are looking at power creep and the game is too easy already.

And yes, it is by a large margin, and again I don't believe you are dumb enough to not see that, so I think you are intentionally ignoring it.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

It is OP, yes, and most of the game is not.  Generally the game is pretty well balanced, but outliers should be looked at and YES nerfed because otherwise we are looking at power creep and the game is too easy already.

And yes, it is by a large margin, and again I don't believe you are dumb enough to not see that, so I think you are intentionally ignoring it.

I'm not ignoring it,

 

I'm saying it's just like ever other OP facet of this game.

 

Easy isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

Look up the definition of incarnate and super, varying levels of either doesn't matter because end game everyone is OP, it's only people obsessed with numbers thats butthurt about it.

 

Carry on.  Enjoy the game, or gripe some more.  Makes no difference to me.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I'm not ignoring it,

 

I'm saying it's just like ever other OP facet of this game.

 

Easy isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

Look up the definition of incarnate and super, varying levels of either doesn't matter because end game everyone is OP, it's only people obsessed with numbers thats butthurt about it.

 

Carry on.  Enjoy the game, or gripe some more.  Makes no difference to me.

You are explicitly ignoring it.  You're obviously wrong that it isn't a far outlier and you're claiming it doesn't matter.  But it IS a huge outlier and it does matter.

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

You are explicitly ignoring it.  You're obviously wrong that it isn't a far outlier and you're claiming it doesn't matter.  But it IS a huge outlier and it does matter.

No I'm not, no I'm not, no it isn't and no it doesn't.

 

You are wrong in that you think the game is broken by this, or that this is any worse than the million other things OP in the game.

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Everyone says this trivializes content, yet each night thousands play without the content feeling trivialized.

 

Maybe because incarnated super powered beings should feel powerful?

 

It's not anymore out of line than any other incarnate buff or AT out there built to the gills for end game fun.

 

 

My test for this is simple. "If this was an Armor set and not a Buff set, would this interaction be permitted?" I think the answer to that is obviously "No."

 

The reason to correct it isn't to interfere with people's fun. It's to recognize that part of the fun is making choices. That's the reason none of the Armor sets combine with a pool power to provide permanently capped Defense to all positions and damage types. And IMO if Armor sets can't do that, Buff sets shouldn't either, at least on powers that affect the caster.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

No I'm not, no I'm not, no it isn't and no it doesn't.

 

You are wrong in that you think the game is broken by this, or that this is any worse than the million other things OP in the game.

Well, it has been demonstrated several times in this thread, so the fact that you still don't get it either means you literally don't get it or are choosing not to get it.  I think it's the second.  But it could be the first.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

My test for this is simple. "If this was an Armor set and not a Buff set, would this interaction be permitted?" I think the answer to that is obviously "No."

 

The reason to correct it isn't to interfere with people's fun. It's to recognize that part of the fun is making choices. That's the reason none of the Armor sets combine with a pool power to provide permanently capped Defense to all positions and damage types. And IMO if Armor sets can't do that, Buff sets shouldn't either, at least on powers that affect the caster.

This is so plainly obvious, which is why I find it hard to believe anyone actually doesn't get it.  They are intentionally denying it even though it's plainly obvious.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, sacredlunatic said:

This is so plainly obvious, which is why I find it hard to believe anyone actually doesn't get it.  They are intentionally denying it even though it's plainly obvious.

I get it, im saying I dont care, just let it be because its not hurting anything other than your feelings.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I get it, im saying I dont care, just let it be because its not hurting anything other than your feelings.

Ok, you do get it, fine.

But you are wrong that it's not hurting anything, and it has been explained several times why.  So yes, let's let it go.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

My test for this is simple. "If this was an Armor set and not a Buff set, would this interaction be permitted?" I think the answer to that is obviously "No."

 

The reason to correct it isn't to interfere with people's fun. It's to recognize that part of the fun is making choices. That's the reason none of the Armor sets combine with a pool power to provide permanently capped Defense to all positions and damage types. And IMO if Armor sets can't do that, Buff sets shouldn't either, at least on powers that affect the caster.

Its not affecting anyones choices, I team with lots of diverse control ATs nightly.

 

Its not affecting their choices.

[Wavicle]

What you seem not to get then is why game balance among classes is important in the first place.

How OP would something have to be for you to agree it should be nerfed?  Because it sounds like the answer is that it doesn't matter to you at all.  There could be an AT that gets Dev tools and you would be ok with that, because "it's not affecting anyone's choices".

[Wavicle]

It is making other people with Defense powers irrelevant, for one thing.  That's just a small example.

[Wavicle]

And don't mention Incarnates or IOs, because that's a different discussion.