Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[oedipus_tex]

 

 

 

I looked around the forums for posts about Power Boosted Farsight and Fade but didn't see one, so I am starting my own. This is a topic I hope we can all agree on.

 

Power Boost and similar powers should not buff Fade or Farsight.

 

For many years, Power Boost was kept under control. Yes, Force Field and Empathy Defenders and Controllers could Power Up/Power Boost their bubbles and Fortitudes. But this was considered okay, even after bubbles became AoE, because they could not cast the power on themselves.

 

When the power Link Minds came to Dominators, there were worries about what Dominators could do with it combined with Power Boost in their secondaries. So a small amount of resistance was added to the power and it was flagged not to receive external buffs.

 

Years later, we got Farsight (Time) and Fade (Controller Dark Affinity). These were among the final 2 buff sets added to the game (the final one was Nature). For some reason they did not get flagged, so here is how much defense Power Boosted Farsight gives with no Defense slotting:

 

 

 

 

 

Normally I do not like to call for nerfs. But a few things seem true here:

 

• This is too much armor value for any power to be giving to the caster. It's more than any power available to actual armored classes.
  • Tanker Super Reflexes provides 18.5% Defense in its best single powers, but only provides one directional tag per power, so you need 3 powers to get 18.5% to Melee, AoE, and Ranged
    • And you never get any elemental defense, including Psi
• Even without Power Boost these numbers would still be borderline pushing the limit of acceptability (they provide more Defense than Force Field's Dispersion Bubble, the powerset that specializes in Defense)
• Other similar powers (Link Minds) are specifically flagged not to create this effect

 

 

So is there any real pushback to flagging these powers similar to Link Minds? I really enjoy Time and Dark Affinity. But IMO this is one of the clearest examples of where a nerf hammer should swing, and no one should be surprised. Or is there disagreement?

 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

BTW I didn't even post the worst example of how Power Boost interacts with Farsight. Just for the eye pops, here it is on a Defender:

 

[Redlynne]

Working As Intentionally Designed.

[Galaxy Brain]

11 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Working As Intentionally Designed.

As in p2w?

[Riverdusk]

I'd be happy if they'd just fix the graphical fx on fade to not be so annoying.  The flickering it causes is obnoxious.  Or give it a minimal fx option please. 

 

I can't bring myself to play the set because of it.

[oedipus_tex]

For the LOLs I wanted to see what the minimum effort to soft cap a Time Defender to all positions looks like. Turns out it's something like this:

 

 

 

 

This shows the results prior to Power Boost. Power Boosted Farsight provides 31% defense on its own. Farsight without Power Boost with 2 Defense IOs is 18.7% Defense.

 

31 - 18.7 =  12.3 Defense added to Farsight by Power Boost.

 

So, factoring that in to the build's totals: 

 

12.3 + 33.1 = 45.4 Defense to all positions.

 

 

Working as designed, yes. But beyond ridiculous. 🙂

 

 

EDIT: Some tweaks to math to show numbers coming specifically from Farsight,, not including the +6% from bonus IOs. The end result is the same.

Edited January 3, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Haijinx]

Hmm kinda destroys the idea other support sets should get no self buffs when you have one this strong available.  Boosted or not.

 

Add this to power boosted scorpion shield and you are rocking.

[Parabola]

Yeah it seems hard to argue that these numbers aren't a bit much. And I say that as a player of a time/dp proc monster.

[RabbitUp]

8 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

For the LOLs I wanted to see what the minimum effort to soft cap a Time Defender to all positions looks like. Turns out it's something like this:

 

 

 

Pick up Fighting as one of your 2 pools instead, and slot the 2 +res IOs (Shield Wall, Reactive Defenses) somewhere, and now you can also cap your S/L res while you are it.

Edited January 3, 2020 by RabbitUp

[Outrider_01]

Numbers might be fudge a bit, was trying a couple of set ups and if anyone wants to verify or correct me when I looked at it.

 

6 slotted, to see what the most you can gain with Farsight/Power Boost.

 

Farsight

• Luck -

1. Defence/End/Rech
2. Def
3. Def/Rec

• Reactive - 

1. Def/Rech
2. Def/End/Rech
3. Def

Duration time - 120

Recharge -125 , no hasten

Defense All Types - 32.7%, no CJ or Maneuvers, or extra toggles.

 

That is with just a couple of random IO sets going for Def and Rech mostly. 

 

3 Def, 2 Rech plain level 50 IO it comes 32.1% Defense while recharging in 130 seconds for 120 duration.

3 Def, 3 Rech, plain level 50 IO its 120.6 32.1% Defense while recharging in 120.6 seconds for 120 duration.

 

Throw in Hasten or +Recharge, effectively you become Neo dodging bullets.  And you teammates.  Throw in self buffs for everyone with IO sets....

 

Is the power combo together waaaayyyyy Over 9000!!! Powered.  

 

Can someone correct me so I don't look like an idiot, I wanted to look into yet it from Mids my opinion is...

• Duration is too long
• Recharge is effectively too short, after IO set bonus or recharge enhancements. With Hasten?
• Power Boost is 15 duration, , 2 min recharge, but who cares with a 2 second cast of Farsight.
• Defense Bonus is insane afterwards.
• Assuming this power is 6 slotted, though most builds seem to try to reduce where possible and crunch them else where.
• Caster is The Flash able too cast on self.  And your teammates, Neo.  Dodging attacks like champs.

 

I don't know, sometimes I like to see things for myself and sometimes I jump to conclusions,  But this is just paper desktop theory 🤔

Edited January 3, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Trickshooter]

Fade definitely needs that flag and I consider it a bug that it never got it. Without it, it's Damage Resistance effects can be buffed by Damage buffs.

 

Farsight is definitely very powerful, but I wouldn't say it's defense values are the problem. If anything, it's the uptime that makes Farsight too good.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Trickshooter said:

Fade definitely needs that flag and I consider it a bug that it never got it. Without it, it's Damage Resistance effects can be buffed by Damage buffs.

 

Farsight is definitely very powerful, but I wouldn't say it's defense values are the problem. If anything, it's the uptime that makes Farsight too good.

 

I didn't realize Fade actually had Resistance in it.

 

You are correct. It is a bug/oversight that the power receives external buffs if it contains a Resistance component. I haven't checked to see if damage bonuses boost its Resistance, but if what we know about other Resistance powers is true, they might be. Has anyone tried Soul Drain > Fade? I'll check it out when I get home from work today. 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

BTW I don't think the Recharge of Farsight is what needs the fix. If it is possible to eventually perma the power with IOs, that just shifts the issue on to higher end builds. The big issues are:

• It receives a huge, long lasting bonus from Farsight
• The base values themselves are excessive to start with, exceeding Force Field's big bubble even prior to Power Boost

In a perfect world, I'd want Farsight to no longer receive boosts from Power Boost and its +Defense lowered from +12.5 to +8 (Dispersion Bubble is +10). +8 is still insanely good for a buff power you can cast on yourself. I'd settle for just the Power Boost fix though.

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, Trickshooter said:

Fade definitely needs that flag and I consider it a bug that it never got it. Without it, it's Damage Resistance effects can be buffed by Damage buffs.

 

Farsight is definitely very powerful, but I wouldn't say it's defense values are the problem. If anything, it's the uptime that makes Farsight too good.

Rather than cement Power Boost as something only really valuable to force fields and maybe empaths, we should instead make a portion of the self buff of those powers unenhanceable. Remove the restriction on resistance for Power Boost while we're at it to sonic can get some love. Resist actually runs into an AT specific hardcap so feels less open to abuse. 

 

It also seems that power boost should enhance defense/resist by a lesser amount, as befitting their enhancement scaling. 

[siolfir]

27 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

BTW I don't think the Recharge of Farsight is what needs the fix. If it is possible to eventually perma the power with IOs, that just shifts the issue on to higher end builds. The big issues are:

• It receives a huge, long lasting bonus from Farsight
• The base values themselves are excessive to start with, exceeding Force Field's big bubble even prior to Power Boost

In a perfect world, I'd want Farsight to no longer receive boosts from Power Boost and its +Defense lowered from +12.5 to +8 (Dispersion Bubble is +10). +8 is still insanely good for a buff power you can cast on yourself. I'd settle for just the Power Boost fix though.

I'd say that it's the uptime; the ability to be Power Boosted just compounds the issue.

 

Just look at Mind Link on the Arachnos Widows - it's 10% defense, 5% to-hit, and 30% psi resistance for 90 seconds; the recharge is either 4 minutes or 5 minutes depending on which direction you go. Many builds (especially proc-heavy builds) don't perma this because it actually requires some investment in recharge set bonuses to get there. The psi resistance is nice (seriously, a Widow with Indomitable Will and Mind Link runs a 40% psi resistance unslotted) but it also means that it can't be boosted. And yet despite being around for much longer, I haven't heard anyone complaining about how strong Mind Link is.

 

Farsight has the same as the lower of those recharges, but lasts for 120 seconds, making it trivial to keep perma before even taking into account Chrono Shift. I'm against lowering the defense because of Dispersion Bubble, though - Dispersion Bubble also grants mez protection, which Farsight does not.

Edited January 3, 2020 by siolfir

[Force Redux]

Force field is an underperforming set, that could use a buff rather than be used as a benchmark for other power sets should be. Rather than Nerf farsight orfade I would rather see  dispersion bubble buffed up to help protect the defender or bubbler better.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Force Redux

[Force Redux]

also nerfing recharge time or duration only favors high-end expensive builds and hurt the more casual players. We all know those who Farm vast sums of infamy can go ahead and get the recharge down for virtually anything.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Force Redux

[aethereal]

Farsight is a great, set-defining power, certainly, but I think the OP also undersells some of its downsides.  Yes, it's easily made perma, but that's easier than making Power Boost perma available in time for the recharge of Farsight, and then you have to not click Farsight when it becomes available, because it will precede Power Boost.  So no auto-powers.  You need to manually manage it, and if you take your eye off the ball, well, your defense just crashed son.

 

I'm not saying that because it's two powers that require a specific epic set choice and a fairly large amount of manual protection that Farsight doesn't deserve a nerf or an unenhanceable portion or whatever, I'm pretty agnostic, but saying that two Defender powers outperform three Tanker toggles certainly undersells the ease of use of those toggles.

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Force Redux said:

Force field is an underperforming set, that could use a buff rather than be used as a benchmark for other power sets should be. Rather than Nerf farsight orfade I would rather see the burst dispersion bubble buffed up to help protect the defender or bubbler better.

 

Force Field underperforms as a set, but Dispersion Bubble isn't the reason. On its own its pretty much carrying the set. I don't want to see this power have more than the current +10 Defense. +10 Defense is a fantastic foundation for building a tank-fender. The set could use other boosts to save floundering powers like Force Bolt and so on.

 

A good basis of comparison for Farsight is powers like Steamy Mist (Storm), Shadow Fall (Dark), and Arctic Fog (Cold). These are actually sphere powers just like Dispersion Bubble. They typically add in the neighborhood of +5 Defense (I don't have Mids in front of me), some elemental Resistance (Fade copies this), and Stealth. That's closer to the value Farsight should have received. +8 Defense would still be extremely generous. 

 

Steamy, Arctic, and Shadow Fall are all marked not to receive external buffs. Power Boost wouldn't break their defense values, because they are toggles, so the Defense would only last the duration of the boost. But they contain Resistance, and Resistance powers are not allowed to benefit from Power Boost.

 

Note that the Controller version of Dark Affinity actually has both Fade and Shadow Fall, and they stack with each other. Fade replaced a Mag 3 single target Hold power from the Defender version of Dark Miasma so its interesting to see its Controller version be Tanker-level armor. 😉

[Hedgefund]

Fade is clearly erroneously buffed by boosting (has resists).  Somewhere I have a post where I verified that a red insp with PB increases resists for Fade (not gonna look for it though).

 

Farsight - WAI.  Time is OP?  Welcome to i21.  All any of these proposed nerfs would accomplish is reshuffling some slotting to get the lost values, maybe lose some procs in Distortion Field, that kind of thing.  In a game where Blasters can go from 0 to 45% def to s/l/e and range, nerfing Time seems an odd objective.  With a pb and/or Farsight nerf to def I'd just find def bonuses.  If it's a nerf to uptime I'd find more recharge bonuses.  If it's a nerf to both, I'd pursue additional bonuses to both.  If there should be some effort to holistically balance the game, fine, but otherwise leave Time alone.

[oedipus_tex]

11 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Farsight is a great, set-defining power, certainly, but I think the OP also undersells some of its downsides.  Yes, it's easily made perma, but that's easier than making Power Boost perma available in time for the recharge of Farsight, and then you have to not click Farsight when it becomes available, because it will precede Power Boost.  So no auto-powers.  You need to manually manage it, and if you take your eye off the ball, well, your defense just crashed son.

 

I'm not saying that because it's two powers that require a specific epic set choice and a fairly large amount of manual protection that Farsight doesn't deserve a nerf or an unenhanceable portion or whatever, I'm pretty agnostic, but saying that two Defender powers outperform three Tanker toggles certainly undersells the ease of use of those toggles.

 

Farsight lasts 120 seconds. With 2 Recharge IOs, it has only a 10 second gap from being perma. Time gets a power that provides the caster +50% Recharge. Given this, Farsight is perma with 2 Recharge IOs even without Hasten or global Recharge slotting assuming you occasionally cast Chrono Shift (the true set defining power IMO).

 

On higher end builds, Farsight recharges in around 60 seconds, but has a duration of 120 seconds, giving you a 60 window to re-cast it at a time with Power Boost is back up.

 

Power Boost's recharge is 120 seconds at base so if you put nothing in it, you have close to perfectly lined up Farsight/Power Boost if Farsight has 2 Recharge IOs. High end Time builds get Power Boost to around 35 seconds. At that point it's almost hard not to have Power Boost available at some point when Farsight is recharged.

Edited January 3, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[aethereal]

I mean, sure.  But it's still using two powers at times when they sync up when there's a lot else going on.  Clicky mez protection is easily made perma, is just one power, can be done auto, and the consequences of having a gap in your mez protection are usually much less than the consequences of suddenly losing essentially all your defense.  But people are still constantly complaining about clicky mez protection.

[Trickshooter]

19 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Rather than cement Power Boost as something only really valuable to force fields and maybe empaths, we should instead make a portion of the self buff of those powers unenhanceable. Remove the restriction on resistance for Power Boost while we're at it to sonic can get some love. Resist actually runs into an AT specific hardcap so feels less open to abuse. 

Power Boost can't work like that for Damage Resistance. And unfortunately it's complicated to explain why, but I'm gonna try anyway.

 

Power Boost works by granting Str to certain Attributes (e.g. Increasing Heal requires Str(Heal), increase ToHit Buffs or Debuffs requires Str(ToHit), etc.). This is how Enhancements work, as well. Negative Str values are how we get effects for powers like Weaken and Benumb.

 

Damage Resistance doesn't use Str(DamageResistance) because that's not a thing; there is no DamageResistance Attribute. And this is where the wonky relationship between Damage Buffs and Damage Resistance comes in. Because what also doesn't exist is Str(Damage).

 

Damage is not an Attribute; instead, each damage type is its own Attribute. So there's Str(Lethal), Str(Smashing), etc. And unlike other Str effects, these don't increase or decrease damage buffs and debuffs; they are just damage buffs or debuffs themselves.

 

Along with Str effects... are Res effects. Res effects lower the amount that an Attribute can affect you (or increase it if the Res value is negative). So Res(Heal) increases your resistance to Heals, Res(ToHit) increases your resistance to ToHit debuffs, but also buffs (which is why many buffs are flagged Unresistable), etc.

 

And the way Damage Resistance works is as Res(Lethal), Res(Smashing), etc. It lowers the amount the damage types can affect you.

 

BUT (and this is the real kicker)...

 

Str effects can also buff the strength of Res effects (which is why most resistances to debuffs and mez are flagged Ignore Enhancements and Buffs, so that you can't increase them). 

 

So because damage buffs and debuffs share the same Attributes (the damage types) with damage resistance, damage buffs will increase the damage resistance. In fact, Damage Enhancements and Damage Resistance Enhancements are the same effect, Str to each of the damage types. This is why the game messes up displaying both effects for powers that accept both Damage and Damage Resistance enhancements (like the Summon Demons power).

 

To get around this craziness, a power is either:

 

1) Allowed to enhance Damage Resistance within the power, but flagged to ignore outside buffs/debuffs (to block out Str except for those granted by enhancements)

 

OR

 

2) Allowed to be affected by outside buffs/debuffs (such as Power Boost/Weaken), but Damage Resistance effects within the power are unenhanceable (so that just the Resistance effects themselves are blocked from from damage buffs)

 

tl;dr Power Boost can't strengthen Damage Resistance effects because the way to strengthen Damage Resistance is with Damage buffs and Damage Resistance powers are set up specifically to avoid that happening.

[Trickshooter]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

It also seems that power boost should enhance defense/resist by a lesser amount, as befitting their enhancement scaling. 

Now that's an interesting idea.

[Force Redux]

There's definitely a convenience factor with a toggle. If PB is to be removed from affecting them, Fade and Farsight should possibly be considered to become toggle powers. It would also flag them as not boostable.