Consolidated CoH difficulty thread (Includes Poll!)

[Galaxy Brain]

20 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

People should probably re-consider their desires based on a few things;

• What the current team is capable of
• What is and isn't hard-coded into this game

 

Some of these voting options forgo thinking of either or both. The game isn't meant to be difficult, and here's why:

• People have figured out the game top to bottom. They know what numbers to crunch, what works, and what doesn't.
• The game, by design, is meant to get easier as you level and build up your character.
• The game's content got put to an abrupt halt at i24 beta.
• It's an MMO that predates WoW and much of modern MMO methodology.

I get it, the lacking of difficulty is a real boner killer.

But there are other games and other servers.

HC's entire design is to be a CoH that is accessible to everyone. Asking for difficulty changes goes against that. Especially these voting options.

Example: Combatting steamrolling is impossible. Scrappers inherently will steam roll stuff. An entire team of blasters will melt a TF.
You cannot feasibly combat that in this game. Not while TW/Bio exists as well, might I add.

There is a reason that the most popular pick in the poll is "Increased Diff only if it is optional". The poll options were created based on the various threads I observed that brought up difficulty tweaks, but few if any asked for total overhauls at all levels of play.

 

The amazing thing about CoH is that its so accessible. However, this can also be a detriment to some players just as how a game being unforgiving is a detriment to others. The latter is already taken care of with how low the skill floor / barrier to entry CoH is. The game can reasonably be completed 100% on the common SO's that drop and get bought from stores, and on 0/1 difficulty. All powerset combos "Work" with none actually being "bad / unplayable". This is amazing and a testament to the base design. HC further improves this by making some things even more accessible, such as incarnate powers that naturally progress as you go beyond 50. But even then they are optional in the sense that you do have to go out of your way to make them and slot them, etc. 

 

Hot take: I don't think Incarnates by themselves are that bad. Has anyone used incarnate powers on a strictly SO build...?

 

Anywho, back to the point. The main issue comes with how low the skill ceiling is. Namely, if the "floor" is just using SO's and powers willy nilly, the next steps from that are using advanced slotting and strategies which quickly outpace the content. This is where we see 4/8 difficulty being the "norm" for many players and even then its just bigger numbers to chew through. I'm willing to bet that a good majority of HC players at least dabble with inventions if not have full builds planned out. In 2020 with Reddit, these forums, discord, FB groups, and so on the info is out there and easy to attain to jump into the more advanced meta. On top of this, HC has removed barriers (overall a good thing!) to get the good stuff.

 

What this leads to is faceroll. When it is easier to increase your character's power beyond what the game can throw at you, it actually simplifies the gameplay down to what we see now: throw as much damage as fast as you can while covering your own butt. It invalidates a bunch of cool strategies that do not fit that mold. 

 

Adding in new difficulty options (with incentives) would allow for more diversity of builds and strategies, and allow more dynamic encounters for those who want to push their limits to chew on. Keeping it optional will retain the skill floor while raising the skill ceiling for a win-win.

 

 

Edit:

The tactical comment in the prior post is questionable. There are clear attempts to do so with Carnies, Malta and even Sky Raiders / Crey with how certain mobs require a bit different approach at times.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Ruin Mage]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

However, this can also be a detriment to some players just as how a game being unforgiving is a detriment to others

You can't and shouldn't try to please everyone.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The main issue comes with how low the skill ceiling is

Welcome to a game that was fully figured out head to toe by people.

Alternatively: Welcome to Homecoming.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It invalidates a bunch of cool strategies that do not fit that mold. 

The introduction of specific power sets and the existing inherents will do that. As will Mids.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Keeping it optional will retain the skill floor while raising the skill ceiling for a win-win.

Optional is fine. However, raising the skill ceiling goes against Homecoming's inherent design and possibly remains hard to achieve due to hard-coded nature.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Shadeknight said:

You can't and shouldn't try to please everyone.

Im not, Im trying to please the people who want more difficult content to test themselves. Which is why optional would be best.

 

Just now, Shadeknight said:

Welcome to a game that was fully figured out head to toe by people.
Alternatively: Welcome to Homecoming

This doesn't seem like much of an obstacle? Its been fully figured out (Skill Ceiling) but that can easily be altered.

 

Just now, Shadeknight said:

The introduction of specific power sets and the existing inherents will do that. As will Mids

This is cyclical... a new melee set that promotes "hard mode" would need to compete with the good sets, where it'll fall unless it did something weird like gave you bonus Inf per hit. You could also nerf the good sets to match this new set in general but that'd be an even harder sell. The root of the problem still exists in that the meta favors certain traits that are bolstered by certain sets and inherits, not the other way around.

 

Just now, Shadeknight said:

Optional is fine. However, raising the skill ceiling goes against Homecoming's inherent design and possibly remains hard to achieve due to hard-coded nature.

I do not think that raising the skill ceiling in optional content goes against the design at all. The hard-coded nature may be troublesome, but that is an unknown depending on what is done.

[Ruin Mage]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I do not believe that people should be asking for anything about difficulty until the back-end stuff is complete - as we do not know what is and isn't hardcoded.

I personally believe if people want a harder CoH, the i24 servers are more their speed.

[CU_Krow]

I vote getting rid of the p2w system, but nobody wants to hear it. 

 

[Chris24601]

The thing I’d most like to see is some better grading of XP awards (i.e. a Council Boss with a rocket launcher and leap kick are not the same level of threat as a Carnie Master Illusionist despite being worth equal XP).

 

Whether that is codeable I don’t know, but I will point to the Rikti Communications Officers conning as LTs for color coding and XP rewards despite having the minion tag as at least one example where XP and level/class weren’t uniform. The XP adjustments for custom foes in AE are another.

 

There is harder content in the game; the groups that turn up in Dark Astoria, Soldiers of Rularuu, Malta, Carnies, etc.; but because your rewards are the same for beating up machine gun wielding Council/5th Column, a lot of groups go after those.

 

Maybe that would change if Carnie Master Illusionists were worth twice the XP/inf or had twice the drop rate for rare salvage/incarnate threads.

 

I also think some groups could get a nice difficulty bump (more accurately a difficulty smoothing) if you expanded the level range of certain mobs.

 

There’s a noticeable difficulty spike for the Circle of Thorns when Fire Casters disappear and Earth casters show up... then everyone breathes a sigh of relief in the 40s when the Earth Casters drop off for Air casters. Likewise, the shift from darkness-based ghosts and their -to-hit to Nerva ghosts and their cold damage shifts difficulty around further. The LT and boss mages only occurring in specific bands also sends their difficulty bouncing around like its a bungee jumper.

 

I think the Circle could be a much more interesting foe overall if all those casters and ghosts and demons had their upper level bands expanded to 54. So in your 20s the fire casters show up, but don’t disappear at 30... instead now its earth and fire casters, then air then ice casters added to.  There could be ruin and death mages in the same spawn; succubi and lashers all the way to 54.

 

Likewise, I think the 51+ Council could get a nice buff out of adding re-colored IDF (replacing the Cor Leonis) and War Works (replacing Mek Men) to their lineup as an extrapolation from the New Praetorians arcs (the remnants of Scott’s forces joining and bringing that Praetorian tech with them) and then tossing in the Nictus faction mobs (dark nova and dwarfs + shadow shards) on top to reflect the rise of Arkhan in the Council’s hierarchy with Requiem and Vandal’s departure back to the 5th Column).

 

I’d be much more interested in seeing tweaks to 51+ mobs like that, along with commensurate reward increases for their more difficult nature simply because adding new mobs would hopefully be easier than a lot of the other suggestions in terms of coding.

[Grouchybeast]

54 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Accuracy and Damage wouldn't do anything while Dark Miasma and other support sets exists. Defenders, corruptors, and controllers would make your changes a non-issue.

I think that many people who would like to see increased difficulty options at high level are asking for exactly this -- enough difficulty that support ATs have the chance to make significant contributions towards dealing with it.  

[Ruin Mage]

I don't find myself, as a Fire/Dark corr, having trouble getting into teams or making a difference.

Also, here's how I know the game isn't made to be difficult:
the original devs  didn't try to stop anyone from soloing AVs or solo/duoing certain iTrials.
HC hasn't either.
Or soloing task forces even end-game ones.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Shadeknight

[Klaleara]

1 hour ago, Shadeknight said:

Game is hard-coded for +4/x8 as the max.

 

 

Health boosting would solve no issue. Teams would still stomp the living crap out of them.
Accuracy and Damage wouldn't do anything while Dark Miasma and other support sets exists. Defenders, corruptors, and controllers would make your changes a non-issue.
 

 

The game was not built to be tactical.

I'm not going to lie, this is one the silliest responses I've ever seen, on any forum.

 

You literally said "Nothing matters", despite the fact the fact that changing the direct things you said wouldn't matter, WOULD.  You increase their health enough, they won't get stomped, that is literally the point.

 

You say increasing the accuracy won't help them hit players, but that is literally what accuracy does.  You increase their accuracy, and they will hit.  I never said increase it by 1%, I said a vague "Increase it".  You increase their accuracy by 1000% and nothing you do will stop them from hitting you lol.

 

Also, the game isn't tactical?  It used to be.  We used to try and get specific powers that complimented the team we are in.  And we would focus specific enemies before others.  And who is to say the game can't become tactical on higher difficulties?  I'm pretty sure people who want higher difficulties will want it to be more difficult.

 

You're for some reason acting like nothing we do will help, as if everything has already been tried, and nothing in life matters.

 

Also, I see "It can't be changed, it's hard coded" all the time, for all kinds of things.  And on almost every occasion, it can be changed.  The devs aren't modding here, they are actually changing the code itself.  Nothing is "Hard coded", it might take extra work.  But its not like the entirety of the game is being held up by the single pillar of difficulty.

 

And lets say, for some reason, you can't change the difficulty settings like that.  I also specifically said I didn't want those settings messed with, I want different difficulty settings, something more hand-made.  Call it Hard Mode, Champion Mode, Incarnate Mode, who cares.  Just some option somewhere, that changes the specific stats, and adds abilities.

 

Would it be easy?  Probably not.  Are we talking about specific changes that is easy?  Not really no.  It's a discussion about difficulty, and the hope that some day, we can get the option to have a higher difficulty.

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

Also, the game isn't tactical?  It used to be.  We used to try and get specific powers that complimented the team we are in.

Because "looking for Rad for task Force" while the 7 others waited for an hour knowing it couldnt be done without a rad was insurmountable fun at the time.

 

Or overlooking 50+ requests to join said team while you turned them all down because you were looking for a Rad is an extremely hospitable environment.

 

Or "hey Sg member I need you to stop what you are enjoying and build a Rad for us."

 

Or "dang I need to go ahead and build a Rad so we can do this", even though the team has long since disbanded.

 

No thanks. don't want that system back.  The inclusivity has made homecoming a better community than live ever was IMO.

[Klaleara]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Because "looking for Rad for task Force" while the 7 others waited for an hour knowing it couldnt be done without a rad was insurmountable fun at the time.

 

Or overlooking 50+ requests to join said team while you turned them all down because you were looking for a Rad is an extremely hospitable environment.

 

Or "hey Sg member I need you to stop what you are enjoying and build a Rad for us."

 

Or "dang I need to go ahead and build a Rad so we can do this", even though the team has long since disbanded.

 

No thanks. don't want that system back.  The inclusivity has made homecoming a better community than live ever was IMO.

Sounds like a balance issue to me.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Because "looking for Rad for task Force" while the 7 others waited for an hour knowing it couldnt be done without a rad was insurmountable fun at the time.

 

Or overlooking 50+ requests to join said team while you turned them all down because you were looking for a Rad is an extremely hospitable environment.

 

Or "hey Sg member I need you to stop what you are enjoying and build a Rad for us."

 

Or "dang I need to go ahead and build a Rad so we can do this", even though the team has long since disbanded.

 

No thanks. don't want that system back.  The inclusivity has made homecoming a better community than live ever was IMO.

Gonna have to side with @Klalearahere, though I also do not want to see this back!

 

The environment has shifted here for sure since those days, namely there are different sets available / power tweaks that make other things besides rad shine. Due to the purple patch, Buffs are as valued as debuffs, and many secondary effects help in tough fights. 

 

When I envision tactics, I picture needing to pull enemies, place enemies in certain spots, take down certain key targets first, and so on. This would bring value to CC and ST damage which are currently almost a novelty in today's game.

[Ruin Mage]

Not a balance issue, just a thing where multiple power sets do the same thing.

Time, Cold, Thermal, Kinetics, Empathy, Dark, etc - some have some overlap while others do things semi-special to them.
Same with attack sets. 

Tactics is not a staple of this MMO. Paragon Studios made sure of that.

Single target damage shines in missions with AVs. CC still shines (see: controllers/dominators) on trials and TFs.
I don't see the same issues people have, but maybe that's an issue on different servers.

[Sakura Tenshi]

going to be honest, if difficulty were to be increased, I'd lean more towards an enemy lethality buff - Primarily in the form of an accuracy boost (while defense focused sets got their base defense raised so it's an intended 'nerf' to people who rely almost entirely on sets to softcap rather than rub a middle finger into the faces of SR, nin, and the like) - because one thing I hate about MMOs and RPGs everywhere is that too many of them make 'damage sponge' a form of difficulty and it gets tiring to see these awesomely powerful attacks we're given just fall flat because the enemy is a giant sack of overbloated HP.

 

That being said, it might be something to keep in mind to give enemies blanket scaling buffs based on team size. Perhaps something like:

• Enemy scaling begins at 4-man teams or greater (thus, small duos and triplet teams don't suffer and aren't pushed to optimize their makeup.)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn HP by 2% per-player (so by a full team, it'd be +10% all around)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn Defenses by 3% per-player (So a full team, all enemies have +15% to all)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn Accuracy and Damage by 1.5% and 3% (So full teams face enemies with +12.5% accuracy and +15% damage)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn Healing, Control, Buff and Debuff strength by 5% and gain .5 mez protection* (so on a full team, all enemies have a +20% control duration, stronger heals, buffs, and debuffs and gain 2 points of mez protection)

*I do think the mez protection should only apply to minions and Lts, and possibly only cover a limited range like knockback/knock up, immobilize, and stun which are commonly used by Damage focused classes so Dominators and Controllers are not shut out in the cold.

 

Now, naturally this idea has a lot of issues: numbers would need to be tweaked, not all AVs or EBs should benefit from this (imagine Reichsman benefiting from these full team buffs, or Protean), rewards should be adjusted accordingly, but at the end of the day, this could not only bring difficulty, but encourage big teams again.

[Klaleara]

Just now, Shadeknight said:

Not a balance issue, just a thing where multiple power sets do the same thing.

Time, Cold, Thermal, Kinetics, Empathy, Dark, etc - some have some overlap while others do things semi-special to them.
Same with attack sets. 

Tactics is not a staple of this MMO. Paragon Studios made sure of that.

Single target damage shines in missions with AVs. CC still shines (see: controllers/dominators) on trials and TFs.
I don't see the same issues people have, but maybe that's an issue on different servers.

AnD CoX died, so we probably shouldn't use that as an example going forward.

 

And that is fine that multiple power sets do the same thing for the most part.  I'd love to see "LF 1 Def/Corr, 1 Brute/Tank, 3 DPS" personally.  At least for the new high difficulties.  Below that can stay the same for all I care.

[Galaxy Brain]

That is another factor. If you can solo 4/8 currently... what need is there to team outside of events that require other players to start? Making teaming more valuable (and the optional team difficulties increase value!) would be nice.

[Klaleara]

1 minute ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

going to be honest, if difficulty were to be increased, I'd lean more towards an enemy lethality buff - Primarily in the form of an accuracy boost (while defense focused sets got their base defense raised so it's an intended 'nerf' to people who rely almost entirely on sets to softcap rather than rub a middle finger into the faces of SR, nin, and the like) - because one thing I hate about MMOs and RPGs everywhere is that too many of them make 'damage sponge' a form of difficulty and it gets tiring to see these awesomely powerful attacks we're given just fall flat because the enemy is a giant sack of overbloated HP.

 

That being said, it might be something to keep in mind to give enemies blanket scaling buffs based on team size. Perhaps something like:

• Enemy scaling begins at 4-man teams or greater (thus, small duos and triplet teams don't suffer and aren't pushed to optimize their makeup.)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn HP by 2% per-player (so by a full team, it'd be +10% all around)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn Defenses by 3% per-player (So a full team, all enemies have +15% to all)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn Accuracy and Damage by 1.5% and 3% (So full teams face enemies with +12.5% accuracy and +15% damage)
• each teammate added after the third increases spawn Healing, Control, Buff and Debuff strength by 5% and gain .5 mez protection* (so on a full team, all enemies have a +20% control duration, stronger heals, buffs, and debuffs and gain 2 points of mez protection)

*I do think the mez protection should only apply to minions and Lts, and possibly only cover a limited range like knockback/knock up, immobilize, and stun which are commonly used by Damage focused classes so Dominators and Controllers are not shut out in the cold.

 

Now, naturally this idea has a lot of issues: numbers would need to be tweaked, not all AVs or EBs should benefit from this (imagine Reichsman benefiting from these full team buffs, or Protean), rewards should be adjusted accordingly, but at the end of the day, this could not only bring difficulty, but encourage big teams again.

Mez protection is terrible imo.  Controllers are already super meh at controlling in this stage.

 

10% health is nothing, they would melt just like they are now, which I want to avoid.  I didn't mention increasing boss health for that reason, I think they are fine.  But Minions and Lt's definitely need more.  Also it would be 14%, not 10.  8 Person teams, not 6.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Klaleara said:

AnD CoX died, so we probably shouldn't use that as an example going forward

Whoa, tbf it died for outside reasons.

Just now, Klaleara said:

 

And that is fine that multiple power sets do the same thing for the most part.  I'd love to see "LF 1 Def/Corr, 1 Brute/Tank, 3 DPS" personally.  At least for the new high difficulties.  Below that can stay the same for all I care.

Agreed. Having overlap is actually a good thing as you can have multiple people fill that "Rad" niche without needing to specifically be Rad. Rad may be the best for that niche, but other things can help in that category plus bring their own unique traits.

[Ruin Mage]

COX died because of NCSoft pulling the plug - not because of balance issues.

 

5 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

I'd love to see "LF 1 Def/Corr, 1 Brute/Tank, 3 DPS" personally.  At least for the new high difficulties

Yeah, no. This would get cheesed and we'd have people moaning once more. It doesn't solve anything.

The game is not meant or built to be hard. Here's a couple of builds that show-case this:

• Fire/Time and Fire/Dark Corruptors
• Titan Weapon / Bio Armor Scrapper/Brute/Tank
• Ill/Time and Ill/Rad Controllers
• Hell, Radiation Armor & Melee as a whole.
• Scrappers and Blasters as a whole.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Shadeknight

[Klaleara]

Just now, Shadeknight said:

COX died because of NCSoft pulling the plug - not because of balance issues.

 

Yeah, no. This would get cheesed and we'd have people moaning once more. It doesn't solve anything.

The game is not meant or built to be hard. Here's a couple of builds that show-case this:

• Fire/Time and Fire/Dark Corruptors
• Titan Weapon / Bio Armor Scrapper/Brute/Tank
• Ill/Time and Ill/Rad Controllers
• Hell, Radiation Armor & Melee as a whole.
• Scrappers and Blasters as a whole.

 

No, it died because enough people weren't playing it...

-------

 

Disagreed.  Myself, nor any of my friends play any of those things that you listed.  Besides your inclusion of 1/2 the game choices (Brute/Tank/Scrappers/Melee/Blasters).

 

Looking at games that do have high difficulties, successfully, and have out-lasted CoX, this is not an issue.  People look for "Tank/Healer/Etc".  In large group raiding there is more specific, because they don't want too much overlap (Already have 3 of these specific healers, need a different one, etc).

[Ruin Mage]

Just now, Klaleara said:

No, it died because enough people weren't playing it...

You weren't playing the game in its later years, you just outed yourself with this.

 

 

Just now, Klaleara said:

Looking at games that do have high difficulties, successfully, and have out-lasted CoX, this is not an issue.  People look for "Tank/Healer/Etc".  In large group raiding there is more specific, because they don't want too much overlap (Already have 3 of these specific healers, need a different one, etc).

Go to those games then. This game doesn't follow the same design philosophy.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

No, it died because enough people weren't playing it...

-------

 

Disagreed.  Myself, nor any of my friends play any of those things that you listed.  Besides your inclusion of 1/2 the game choices (Brute/Tank/Scrappers/Melee/Blasters).

 

Looking at games that do have high difficulties, successfully, and have out-lasted CoX, this is not an issue.  People look for "Tank/Healer/Etc".  In large group raiding there is more specific, because they don't want too much overlap (Already have 3 of these specific healers, need a different one, etc).

No, that absolutely is not the case, it wad making a small profit actually.

 

They pulled the plug to try to corral more of a player base into some new game they had coming out.

[Klaleara]

Just now, Shadeknight said:

You weren't playing the game in its later years, you just outed yourself with this.

 

 

Go to those games then. This game doesn't follow the same design philosophy.

I did for a bit, but the business model sucked too hard, so I quit.  Not sure how relevant that is.  NCSoft wouldn't have shut it down if it had made enough profit, about it.

 

Or how about, I stick around, and try to add what I think would help the game?  Ya know, constructive criticism.  I will admit, my playtime has drastically been reduced the last couple weeks due to the lack of difficulty (And lack of redside).  But I'll still pop in and out as long as Homecoming is around.

[Galaxy Brain]

Cut it out with the personal attacks. Trying to "out" each other solves nothing, as does bringing up why CoH got shut down.

 

Anyways, bringing up certain power combos or even ATs as "Easy Mode" points more toward a balance problem than an overarching difficulty problem. If Rad melee makes the game easy... what about  Dark Melee? Does that make the game hard? Should DM be buffed to RM levels or RM be nerfed to DM levels? Either choice is bad, in theory.

 

The better option would be to help the sets that are not in that list be closer to said list via buffs, and then throw a bone to what these newly powered sets will be fighting.

 

 

That redside comment hits home though. I think that before anything is done, looking backwards the reward structure should be looked at. Blueside is easier than Redside. Council are easier than Malta. In both cases though, you get the same rewards and incentives for both... so why would you play redside malta missions instead of blueside council?

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Ruin Mage]

Just now, Klaleara said:

NCSoft wouldn't have shut it down if it had made enough profit, about it.

It didn't make the profit in one specific area:
Asia.

Western success never mattered to NCSoft. Case in point: The very game we're playing.

 

 

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Anyways, bringing up certain power combos or even ATs as "Easy Mode" points more toward a balance problem than an overarching difficulty problem. If Rad melee makes the game easy... what about  Dark Melee? Does that make the game hard? Should DM be buffed to RM levels or RM be nerfed to DM levels? Either choice is bad, in theory.

The only weak sets that come to mind are Kinetic Melee, Ice Melee, and Dual Blades. But even those can perform. Dark/Shield is one of the craziest combos out there as is Fire/Shield.

That may also be a case of synergy, but yeah.

 

 

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The better option would be to help the sets that are not in that list be closer to said list via buffs, and then throw a bone to what these newly powered sets will be fighting.

Buffing underperforming sets through serious number crunching and comparisons would be a good step, sure.