Breath of Fire or Energy Torrent?

[Cutter]

Leveling a Rad/Fire tank (say hi to Armoogeddon on Everlasting if you see him!) and, yeah, debating what to go with between these two powers as I close in on 44. I've never like BoF due to how narrow the cone is; skipped it back on live so it's never been seriously on my radar. Do the new arc changes make it better enough to take?

 

Comparing against ET, BoF obviously wins on damage and recharge, but ET is all-around bigger, and brings some extra KB/KD mitigation.

 

Secondary and related question: are EPPs affected by the arc buffs? I got lost in the beta threads and don't recall what the deal was with them.

 

I only have space/slots for one of these powers.

 

Thanks in advance for opinions and advice!

[tellania]

I'd go BoF, esp since you can give a KD proc into it.

 

 

Upcoming changes:

Scaling & Stats

• Tanker:
  • Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95,
    • Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase.
  • Buff modifiers increased to match Controller values.
  • Damage buff cap increased from 400% to 500%.
• Brute:
  • Ranged and Melee damage modifiers are now equal at 0.75.
  • Damage buff cap lowered from 775% to 700%.
• All Brute and Tanker Epic pools now use ranged damage modifiers.
  • Note that due to the above changes, Epic Pools should see no damage change at all.

AoEs

• Most Tanker Melee AoE powers have had their target caps increased. 
  • Most cones now have a 10 target cap. 
  • Most PBAoEs now have a 16 target cap.
• Tanker now gets an inherent buff to the radius of AoE attacks and arc of cones.
  • +50% for AoEs.
  • +50% for cones.
  •  Some powers are unaffected by this buff. This is noted on the power description.
• Full list of Tanker target cap changes, area changes, etc:

 

Currently:

BoF arc 30 degrees, so it will become 45 degrees

Energy torrent is 45 degrees (no changes to APP)

 

Bof does 71 damage at lvl 50 now, will become (do cones use melee damage or range????) .95/.8 = 84

ET does 42 damage.

 

Recharge time: Bof: 10s, ET: 24s

 

ET has KD.   BoF CAN accept an IO to do knockdown  (at the cost of 1 enhancement slot)

 

BoF has range 10, ET has range 40

 

BoF can hit up to 10 (will become 16).   ET can hit up to 10.

• Tanker > Fiery Melee > Combustion 10 => 16
• Tanker > Fiery Melee > Breath of Fire 10 => 16
• Tanker > Fiery Melee > Fire Sword Circle 10 => 16

[Cutter]

Thanks for that breakdown. Sounds like BoF is where it's at!

[Vea]

 

AFAIK - the radius and arc buff does include APP/EPP.

 

Damage is higher in energy torrent, cast time is considerably shorter. 24 second recharge makes it a perfect proc mule for +rech with FF. It has greater range, so probably easier to hit all 10 targets vs hitting 16 targets with BoF. The downside is needing 2 energy mastery powers and having to take it later in the game.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Vea said:

If you ignore the boost to damage from Fiery Embrace (is that even spelled right?) the straight damage of the two powers works out to:

 

Energy Torrent: 15.18 Smashing + 35.43 Energy = 50.61 total damage (all at once)

Breath of Fire: 35.92 (x2) Fire + up to 4 ticks of 5.28 Fire = 92.96 total damage (over 4.1s)

 

However, of the two, Energy Torrent has WAY MORE proc monster potential than Breath of Fire does, thanks to the longer recharge time with no recharge enhancement in the power at all, and because Energy Torrent can access Target AoE AND Knockdown sets, instead of just Target AoE sets.

 

Energy Torrent (1 PPM)

• 1 * ((24 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.07) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 40 * (11 * 45 + 540) / 30,000))) = 20.53%

Breath of Fire (1 PPM)

• 1 * ((10 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 2.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 15 * (11 * 30 + 540) / 30,000))) = 15.92%

That means that putting a Force Feedback proc into Energy Torrent becomes something of a No Brainer™ ... and you can make up for the "lower damage" on Energy Torrent simply with damage procs (and more of them!) than you could put into Breath of Fire, and those damage procs will deal additional damage more reliably (and at a greater distance) than you'd be able to get with Breath of Fire.  Additionally, once you've got some significant recharge in your build, the LONG animation time of Breath of Fire is going to start to DRAG on your overall attack chain tempo/speed, while Energy Torrent is something you can just drop in whenever you feel like using it (for a quick Force Feedback proc).

 

Something else to keep in mind is the asymmetrical advantage that Energy Torrent will have over Breath of Fire when factoring in the Force Feedback proc.  What asymmetrical advantage am I talking about?  Well ... let's take a look.

 

With NO recharge at all ...

• Breath of Fire has an activation time of 2.67s and a recharge time of 10.00s ... for a total cycle time of 12.67s (using above data).
• Energy Torrent has an activation of 1.07s and a recharge time of 24.00s ... for a total cycle time of 25.07s (using above data).

Which means ... you can basically cast 2 Breath of Fire in the time you can cast 1 Energy Torrent ... right?

Well ... yeah ... with no slotting or global recharge buffing involved ... sure ... in a vacuum that would be the case.

 

But then as soon as you start factoring in Force Feedback procs (which affect your ENTIRE build, and not just Energy Torrent) the entire calculus changes rapidly ... especially if you've got Hasten and +80% global recharge from set bonuses (so still no recharge enhancement directly slotted into the powers directly).  Under those circumstances, the recharge time of Breath of Fire drops to 4.00s while the recharge time of Energy Torrent drops to 9.60s, which still seems like Breath of Fire still has the advantage ... until you add in the animation times and realize that 4+2.67=6.67s does not compare all that favorably with 9.6+1.07=10.67s per animation+recharge cycle ... and then you factor in what Force Feedback would be doing of adding another +100% recharge for 5 seconds when procced and you wind up with a 7.6s recharge time (factoring in the 5s duration on Force Feedback procs) for Energy Torrent and wind up with 7.6+1.07=8.67s total cycle time for Energy Torrent (with a Force Feedback proc) versus 4+2.67=6.67s for Breath of Fire.

 

That then means that the "timing" advantage for Breath of Fire is only 8.67/6.67=1.3x ... meaning you can use Breath of Fire 4 times in the amount of time it would take to use Energy Torrent 3 times (all else being equal and "perfect" for doing so) ... but look at how much animation time is being EATEN by Breath of Fire in that cycle!  Using Breath of Fire, you've only got 4 seconds in which to animate something other than Breath of Fire(!) ... while with Energy Torrent you've got 7.6s to 9.6s(!) to animate something other than Energy Torrent ... per recharge cycle!

 

In other words, at high global recharge values, Breath of Fire is going to start "eating into" the animation time you have available for your other attacks and starting to dominate your attack chain by squeezing out other powers by not giving them time to animate during repeating attack rotations due to the 2.67s animation time on Breath of Fire.  In contrast, Energy Torrent places very little pressure on repeating attack chains and will have an increasing chance to proc Force Feedback with more $Targets hit, accelerating recharge times on EVERY power in your build, while still leaving open some 7.6s to 9.6s for OTHER POWERS to be used every recharge cycle while only costing you 1.07s to cast.  Additionally, you can use Energy Torrent as a soft control (Knockdown) attack, while Breath of Fire offers no such mitigation.

 

My point being that with no recharge slotted into the powers, but with a lot of global recharge modifiers stacked up in your build, Energy Torrent winds up being a lot LESS disruptive to your overall attack chain, with a lower demand for animation time per repeating cycle, while also "supercharging" the recharge on EVERY POWER IN YOUR BUILD when using Energy Torrent.  On balance, I'd say that the advantage goes to Energy Torrent, even if Energy Torrent isn't doing "more damage" than Breath of Fire "directly" in Energy Torrent when cast (but is doing so through the knock on effects of Force Feedback procs and damage procs and lower animation time demands per repeating attacking chain cycle).

 

In other words ... Energy Torrent will "integrate" better into most builds than Breath of Fire will ... when looking at these two powers in (relative) isolation to each other.

 

 

 

Remember ... it's not just how much damage you produce from the power(s) when you use it(them) ... but rather the CONTEXT in which you can manage to use those powers reliably and repeatedly that truly matters.

[Troo]

Energy Torrent 

Why? Activation time.

[Cutter]

Aaaaand now I'm being pulled back in my original direction of taking Energy Torrent. Guess I'll just wait to hit 44 (or 45 I spose for slots), copy to test and see what I like!

[Troo]

It's good that it is a considered choice. These are the subtle things that add to the whole experience. Am I choosing based on theme, damage, buffing recharge, mitigation..? Really there are no wrong answers. 

[Camel]

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

If you ignore the boost to damage from Fiery Embrace (is that even spelled right?) the straight damage of the two powers works out to:

 

Energy Torrent: 15.18 Smashing + 35.43 Energy = 50.61 total damage (all at once)

Breath of Fire: 35.92 (x2) Fire + up to 4 ticks of 5.28 Fire = 92.96 total damage (over 4.1s)

 

However, of the two, Energy Torrent has WAY MORE proc monster potential than Breath of Fire does, thanks to the longer recharge time with no recharge enhancement in the power at all, and because Energy Torrent can access Target AoE AND Knockdown sets, instead of just Target AoE sets.

 

Energy Torrent (1 PPM)

• 1 * ((24 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.07) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 40 * (11 * 45 + 540) / 30,000))) = 20.53%

Breath of Fire (1 PPM)

• 1 * ((10 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 2.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 15 * (11 * 30 + 540) / 30,000))) = 15.92%

That means that putting a Force Feedback proc into Energy Torrent becomes something of a No Brainer™ ... and you can make up for the "lower damage" on Energy Torrent simply with damage procs (and more of them!) than you could put into Breath of Fire, and those damage procs will deal additional damage more reliably (and at a greater distance) than you'd be able to get with Breath of Fire.  Additionally, once you've got some significant recharge in your build, the LONG animation time of Breath of Fire is going to start to DRAG on your overall attack chain tempo/speed, while Energy Torrent is something you can just drop in whenever you feel like using it (for a quick Force Feedback proc).

 

Something else to keep in mind is the asymmetrical advantage that Energy Torrent will have over Breath of Fire when factoring in the Force Feedback proc.  What asymmetrical advantage am I talking about?  Well ... let's take a look.

 

With NO recharge at all ...

• Breath of Fire has an activation time of 2.67s and a recharge time of 10.00s ... for a total cycle time of 12.67s (using above data).
• Energy Torrent has an activation of 1.07s and a recharge time of 24.00s ... for a total cycle time of 25.07s (using above data).

Which means ... you can basically cast 2 Breath of Fire in the time you can cast 1 Energy Torrent ... right?

Well ... yeah ... with no slotting or global recharge buffing involved ... sure ... in a vacuum that would be the case.

 

But then as soon as you start factoring in Force Feedback procs (which affect your ENTIRE build, and not just Energy Torrent) the entire calculus changes rapidly ... especially if you've got Hasten and +80% global recharge from set bonuses (so still no recharge enhancement directly slotted into the powers directly).  Under those circumstances, the recharge time of Breath of Fire drops to 4.00s while the recharge time of Energy Torrent drops to 9.60s, which still seems like Breath of Fire still has the advantage ... until you add in the animation times and realize that 4+2.67=6.67s does not compare all that favorably with 9.6+1.07=10.67s per animation+recharge cycle ... and then you factor in what Force Feedback would be doing of adding another +100% recharge for 5 seconds when procced and you wind up with a 7.6s recharge time (factoring in the 5s duration on Force Feedback procs) for Energy Torrent and wind up with 7.6+1.07=8.67s total cycle time for Energy Torrent (with a Force Feedback proc) versus 4+2.67=6.67s for Breath of Fire.

 

That then means that the "timing" advantage for Breath of Fire is only 8.67/6.67=1.3x ... meaning you can use Breath of Fire 4 times in the amount of time it would take to use Energy Torrent 3 times (all else being equal and "perfect" for doing so) ... but look at how much animation time is being EATEN by Breath of Fire in that cycle!  Using Breath of Fire, you've only got 4 seconds in which to animate something other than Breath of Fire(!) ... while with Energy Torrent you've got 7.6s to 9.6s(!) to animate something other than Energy Torrent ... per recharge cycle!

 

In other words, at high global recharge values, Breath of Fire is going to start "eating into" the animation time you have available for your other attacks and starting to dominate your attack chain by squeezing out other powers by not giving them time to animate during repeating attack rotations due to the 2.67s animation time on Breath of Fire.  In contrast, Energy Torrent places very little pressure on repeating attack chains and will have an increasing chance to proc Force Feedback with more $Targets hit, accelerating recharge times on EVERY power in your build, while still leaving open some 7.6s to 9.6s for OTHER POWERS to be used every recharge cycle while only costing you 1.07s to cast.  Additionally, you can use Energy Torrent as a soft control (Knockdown) attack, while Breath of Fire offers no such mitigation.

 

My point being that with no recharge slotted into the powers, but with a lot of global recharge modifiers stacked up in your build, Energy Torrent winds up being a lot LESS disruptive to your overall attack chain, with a lower demand for animation time per repeating cycle, while also "supercharging" the recharge on EVERY POWER IN YOUR BUILD when using Energy Torrent.  On balance, I'd say that the advantage goes to Energy Torrent, even if Energy Torrent isn't doing "more damage" than Breath of Fire "directly" in Energy Torrent when cast (but is doing so through the knock on effects of Force Feedback procs and damage procs and lower animation time demands per repeating attacking chain cycle).

 

In other words ... Energy Torrent will "integrate" better into most builds than Breath of Fire will ... when looking at these two powers in (relative) isolation to each other.

 

 

 

Remember ... it's not just how much damage you produce from the power(s) when you use it(them) ... but rather the CONTEXT in which you can manage to use those powers reliably and repeatedly that truly matters.

Kudos to you for explaining it so eloquently. I wish I had delved into numbers but I have not and don’t see myself doing so anytime soon. I’ve just played and love this game so much that I have an inherent understanding of how a lot of it works. Definitely a no brained for going ET over BoF. Thanks for explaining it to the masses!

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, cazden121 said:

Kudos to you for explaining it so eloquently. I wish I had delved into numbers but I have not and don’t see myself doing so anytime soon. I’ve just played and love this game so much that I have an inherent understanding of how a lot of it works. Definitely a no brained for going ET over BoF. Thanks for explaining it to the masses!

Well ... it just takes more time/effort to make that kind of analysis than just saying "MOAH DAMAGE YO!" and ignoring EVERY other parameter of consequence (simply because they're inconvenient to have to think about ... seriously).  It seems that for a lot of people, all they "care" about is doing more damage in less time ... and think that if you just stack up "the (in a vacuum) Best of Everything™" the integration of all of those factors will (smoothly?) result as a natural consequence.  This is why you see so many builds just cherry picking only "the best" powers to use, as if that was ALL that was needed to make an "only the bestest!" build.  It's not ... but it's funny to see people perpetuating the notion, due to what I attribute to sheer intellectual laziness (which doesn't take a whole lot of thought or effort to do).

 

But you can't just TELL people that they're making a mistake by focusing on one (and only one!) parameter for their "all the bestest!" collection and have them believe you.  You have to SHOW people that when you get to the integration step (that most people ignore and/or forget about) ... there's a problem.  Just because you use "only the bestest!" powers doesn't ipso facto mean that they're all going to integrate cleanly/neatly/nicely together within the context of an overall build plan ... and THAT is the REAL challenge in making a build that works BETTER than the sum of its parts!  I know ... I've tested.

 

However, I'm an ... outlier ... in that regard (obviously).

 

"There is MADNESS to our METHODS ... YEEEESSSSSSS ..." 

[Cutter]

7 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Well ... it just takes more time/effort to make that kind of analysis than just saying "MOAH DAMAGE YO!" and ignoring EVERY other parameter of consequence (simply because they're inconvenient to have to think about ... seriously).  It seems that for a lot of people, all they "care" about is doing more damage in less time ... and think that if you just stack up "the (in a vacuum) Best of Everything™" the integration of all of those factors will (smoothly?) result as a natural consequence.  This is why you see so many builds just cherry picking only "the best" powers to use, as if that was ALL that was needed to make an "only the bestest!" build.  It's not ... but it's funny to see people perpetuating the notion, due to what I attribute to sheer intellectual laziness (which doesn't take a whole lot of thought or effort to do).

 

But you can't just TELL people that they're making a mistake by focusing on one (and only one!) parameter for their "all the bestest!" collection and have them believe you.  You have to SHOW people that when you get to the integration step (that most people ignore and/or forget about) ... there's a problem.  Just because you use "only the bestest!" powers doesn't ipso facto mean that they're all going to integrate cleanly/neatly/nicely together within the context of an overall build plan ... and THAT is the REAL challenge in making a build that works BETTER than the sum of its parts!  I know ... I've tested.

 

However, I'm an ... outlier ... in that regard (obviously).

 

"There is MADNESS to our METHODS ... YEEEESSSSSSS ..." 

Yeah, I admit I got a little locked into the +damage mindset here. Even when I first had Torrent plugged in, I only looked at the big orange number potential and completely blocked out proc potential. So for that reminder, a big thanks!

 

In terms of proc slotting, I'm considering the following:

Level 44: Energy Torrent

[*] (A) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback to Knockdown

[*] (45) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
[*] (45) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
[*] (45) Javelin Volley - Accuracy/Damage
[*] (46) Javelin Volley - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
[*] (46) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

 

Seems like a decent enough mix of damage and utility there.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Cutter

[Caulderone]

Depending a lot on the overall accuracy/to-hit of the build (making sure to hit 95% chance to hit), it would likely be very nice to do 2 50+5 A/D/E (Detonation/Posi) for the endurance reduction.

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Cutter said:

In terms of proc slotting, I'm considering the following:

Level 44: Energy Torrent

[*] (A) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback to Knockdown

[*] (45) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
[*] (45) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
[*] (45) Javelin Volley - Accuracy/Damage
[*] (46) Javelin Volley - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
[*] (46) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

 

Explain to the class why the Sudden Acceleration KB > KD IO is useful when slotted into this power.

[Cutter]

19 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

 

Explain to the class why the Sudden Acceleration KB > KD IO is useful when slotted into this power.

...cause I assumed it worked like Energy Blast's version? 😞  I graciously accept my no-prize.

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Cutter said:

...cause I assumed it worked like Energy Blast's version? 😞  I graciously accept my no-prize.

This is why it's important to ... read the label.  Sometimes the label will tell you important things you need to know ...

[Cutter]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

This is why it's important to ... read the label.  Sometimes the label will tell you important things you need to know ...

Yup it is. Tho the label - as in the text description of the power - is a little hyperbolic in this case:

 

 

0.67 is not sending anyone flying ever, except maaaaybe some clockworks. But still, the full info is available and I'll take my lumps for not checking all of it out!