About that fix for Confront we discussed, well here it is.

[Wavicle]

With some necessary breaking of the cottage rule, let us make Confront worth taking. Let us turn it into a true Gap Closer for Scrappers, giving them the unique status of being the most mobile melee toon.

 

Specifically, a Teleport ability that requires an enemy target and puts you at your targets location. The -Range component is replaced with a very short, high magnitude immobilize effect. They would retain the current Taunting power but the recharge would have to be much longer, maybe 25 seconds. They could keep the current range (maybe slightly shorter, say 60 feet) and the current animations, though perhaps shave some time off if possible, preferably closer to 1 second. You taunt (and immobilize) and then immediately teleport to your target.

 

I don't think this should be available as a pool power, and I don't know about Widows.  But for Scrappers I think this would be unique, fun, and not game breaking.  It would make the powers nice to have, but not must have.

Edited February 3, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Wavicle]

I originally considered trying to design a variety of them, some Teleport self, some Teleport foe, etc, but I decided the bonus to in combat movement was unique enough that the whole AT would benefit from it.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

while not a bad idea this would give certain sets multiple teleports. If you include the power pool ability spring attack, an Elec/shield scrapper would have a total of 4 teleports as would Savage melee. Also having a teleport ability makes no sense conceptually with some powers, such as Titan Weapons. That being said i think a dash would make more sense. Since its slower than a teleport you can reduce the cooldown time a bit. Maybe give it the ninja run animation but double the speed? Maybe replace the immob with 2 seconds of fear instead? If i saw a scrapper brandishing a weapon rushing at me id prolly cringe a little.

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

while not a bad idea this would give certain sets multiple teleports. If you include the power pool ability spring attack, an Elec/shield scrapper would have a total of 4 teleports as would Savage melee. Also having a teleport ability makes no sense conceptually with some powers, such as Titan Weapons. That being said i think a dash would make more sense. Since its slower than a teleport you can reduce the cooldown time a bit. Maybe give it the ninja run animation but double the speed? Maybe replace the immob with 2 seconds of fear instead? If i saw a scrapper brandishing a weapon rushing at me id prolly cringe a little.

Regarding sets that already have teleports: Those are on Much higher timers and do not require a target, so it doesn't exactly duplicate abilities.

Yes, absolutely I agree a Dash ability would make more sense for many of those sets.  But there's a problem.  There's no such thing in the game as dash abilities.  There are teleports.  My suggestion is actually doable with currently existing resources.  Conceptually it IS a dash, mechanically it has to be teleport.

No to fear.  The power cannot add real survivability or dps increase of any kind except for the gap closer aspect itself.

Edited February 4, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Saiyajinzoningen]

dude if you dont think there is dash in the game you have never been speed boosted lol (jk)

[Replacement]

The Savage melee teleport is a perfect example of a power that's conceptually a dash.

 

I like this idea, 2 things to toss in:

First, like I mentioned in the other thread, this would only work if Presence-Provoke was buffed enough to satisfy the odd currently-Confronting Scrapper.

 

Second, I think it would be better to have them different. For example, I could imagine Katana getting a short move speed burst, along with slow resist and immob protection, all for about 3 seconds (remember: the way this game works, any immobilize would reassert itself the moment this wore off), while Broadsword would get a leap (port).

 

Cons:

More development time

Would lead to staggered release

 

Pros:

Tuned to set's individual performance, can even be used to buff underperforming sets (e.g. Burst of Speed for martial arts, which means another aoe attack)

Individualized to make them unique

Staggered release means better targeted testing/feedback.

 

Also, I do kind of think Scrappers could use a bit of something extra, so I don't mind minor utility buffs. I could imagine giving dark melee a ground-targeted TP that creates a Smoke Grenade effect as they port in, for example.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Replacement

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

The Savage melee teleport is a perfect example of a power that's conceptually a dash.

 

I like this idea, 2 things to toss in:

First, like I mentioned in the other thread, this would only work if Presence-Provoke was buffed enough to satisfy the odd currently-Confronting Scrapper.

 

Second, I think it would be better to have them different. For example, I could imagine Katana getting a short move speed burst, along with slow resist and immob protection, all for about 3 seconds (remember: the way this game works, any immobilize would reassert itself the moment this wore off), while Broadsword would get a leap (port).

 

Cons:

More development time

Would lead to staggered release

 

Pros:

Tuned to set's individual performance, can even be used to buff underperforming sets (e.g. Burst of Speed for martial arts, which means another aoe attack)

Individualized to make them unique

Staggered release means better targeted testing/feedback.

 

Also, I do kind of think Scrappers could use a bit of something extra, so I don't mind minor utility buffs. I could imagine giving dark melee a ground-targeted TP that creates a Smoke Grenade effect as they port in, for example.

 Given that confront currently is exactly the same for all sets, I think keeping it exactly the same for all sets is a good idea. Other powers should be used to tweak the weaker sets. 

[Wavicle]

Let me clarify that I agree with you it would be better if sets had individualized confront abilities, but I think that it is a much more difficult fix and just getting it done is worth making it simpler in this way.

[SwitchFade]

Range closing attacks are features of certain sets that distinguish them. Sets such as Savage and shield have unique powers that should stay that way. Leaping has spring attack.

 

By giving this mechanic to all scrap sets, we open a whole can of other worms as well.

 

Sorry, I have to vote no, we should not go down this path.

 

Unique confront changes would be something like Ally targeted aggro redirection, or for targeted aggro redirection.

Edited February 5, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Range closing attacks are features of certain sets that distinguish them. Sets such as Savage and shield have unique powers that should stay that way. Leaping has spring attack.

 

By giving this mechanic to all scrap sets, we open a whole can of other worms as well.

 

Sorry, I have to vote no, we should not go down this path.

Given that there are currently two primaries that have such a power and a secondary that has such a power and that there’s a power such as that available in the pools, I don’t think that your objection really stands.

[Wavicle]

And even more to the point:

 

All scrappers get a range closing ability. It’s called confront, it just doesn’t work very well. My suggestion is just to make it work better.

[SwitchFade]

3 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Given that there are currently two primaries that have such a power and a secondary that has such a power and that there’s a power such as that available in the pools, I don’t think that your objection really stands.

Exactly, two primaries that are majorly defined by a unique mechanic that this would trivialize.

 

Sorry, hard no vote on giving all sets a teleport to foe.

 

Other fixes? Sure. Not that one.

Edited February 5, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Wavicle]

It doesn’t trivialize those powers, that’s not true. Those abilities are giant AOE’s. This ability  does no damage at all. 

[Wavicle]

We have had multiple threads trying to come up with some replacement for confront that does not overpower scrappers, in other words it really can’t buff either survivability or offense.

 

If you can come up with another suggestion great. Personally I think that this is the best suggestion that anyone has come up with so far, and I don’t think your objections really are all that relevant.

[Lazarillo]

Scrappers have a "gap closer".  It's called Combat Jumping. 

[SwitchFade]

4 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

We have had multiple threads trying to come up with some replacement for confront that does not overpower scrappers, in other words it really can’t buff either survivability or offense.

 

If you can come up with another suggestion great. Personally I think that this is the best suggestion that anyone has come up with so far, and I don’t think your objections really are all that relevant.

That's great. I think this one of the least desirable suggestions, thus the hard no vote. Also, it's kinda rude to tell someone their objections are not relevant. Your case for change is shaky and your proposed solution is unconvincing, I'm very sorry. 

I suggest, take the feedback, review your proposal, refine it until you get buy-in.

 

Sure, confront sucks. Bit your proposal is an instant no. I'm welcome to a reproposal and encourage you to work on your case 

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

That's great. I think this one of the least desirable suggestions, thus the hard no vote. Also, it's kinda rude to tell someone their objections are not relevant. Your case for change is shaky and your proposed solution is unconvincing, I'm very sorry. 

I suggest, take the feedback, review your proposal, refine it until you get buy-in.

 

Sure, confront sucks. Bit your proposal is an instant no. I'm welcome to a reproposal and encourage you to work on your case 

Well, I apologize for being rude.  That was not my intention.  I disagree with your points though, and that's ok.

Edited February 5, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Wavicle]

11 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Scrappers have a "gap closer".  It's called Combat Jumping. 

my suggestion gives them:

A: a real gap closer that puts them in melee with their target even if you the player haven't visually located that target

 

B: a gap closer in their own sets, not a power pool

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

That's great. I think this one of the least desirable suggestions, thus the hard no vote. Also, it's kinda rude to tell someone their objections are not relevant. Your case for change is shaky and your proposed solution is unconvincing, I'm very sorry. 

I suggest, take the feedback, review your proposal, refine it until you get buy-in.

 

Sure, confront sucks. Bit your proposal is an instant no. I'm welcome to a reproposal and encourage you to work on your case 

Again, I would love to hear some suggestion.  Any suggestion.  We have been over and over it in other threads and this is the Only suggestion made so far that adds neither offense nor survivability but does add Something of value.

[Lazarillo]

12 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

A: a real gap closer that puts them in melee with their target even if you the player haven't visually located that target

 

B: a gap closer in their own sets, not a power pool

A: ...which would serve what purpose, exactly?

B: Fine, it's called "Hurdle"

 

Confront has a purpose it serves.  It pulls an enemy away from a group and draws it to the Scrapper so that the Scrapper can fight it without interference.  Considering you yourself want pools not to be involved, it's worth noting that nothing else a Scrapper can do using its primary or secondary can achieve that function.  A "gap-closer" has no greater function then literally running/jumping up to an enemy as-is, something any Scrapper can do without any powers at all.

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

A: ...which would serve what purpose, exactly?

B: Fine, it's called "Hurdle"

 

Confront has a purpose it serves.  It pulls an enemy away from a group and draws it to the Scrapper so that the Scrapper can fight it without interference.  Considering you yourself want pools not to be involved, it's worth noting that nothing else a Scrapper can do using its primary or secondary can achieve that function.  A "gap-closer" has no greater function then literally running/jumping up to an enemy as-is, something any Scrapper can do without any powers at all.

If you were right then people wouldn't complain about Follow not taking them to melee while hovering.

A button that takes you directly to melee is Fun, first off.  Second, it would sometimes help when in Slow or -Jump patches.

But mostly, no Confront has no purpose.  It is literally the least chosen power in the entire game.

[Leogunner]

It's an interesting idea but it's not really necessary. Confront does exactly what's on the tin. It might not be popular but it's not disfunctional. If you're trying to buff Scrappers or specific sets, I think there are better options. 

[Wavicle]

I'm happy to hear other suggestions of how to fix Confront. But there are real limitations.  There is no indication that Scrappers as a whole need either Offensive or Defensive buffs.  Certain sets could use help, sure, but that's not what this is about.

Any suggestion of how to fix Confront must:

A) not improve Scrapper Defensive or Offensive performance directly

B) retain the basic concept of singling out an enemy (but need not necessarily remain a Pull ability)

C) make the power generally attractive to take for every Scrapper, but not so important that it becomes must have


Leaving it as is is NOT an option, as right now Scrappers essentially only get 8 powers in their primary.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

It's an interesting idea but it's not really necessary. Confront does exactly what's on the tin. It might not be popular but it's not disfunctional. If you're trying to buff Scrappers or specific sets, I think there are better options. 

I am not trying to buff either specific sets OR scrappers as a whole.

I am just trying to make Confront worth taking.  I'm not going to continue arguing as to why that is necessary.  The devs have already done that.

[Wavicle]

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