About that fix for Confront we discussed, well here it is.

[Replacement]

@Lazarillo and @SwitchFade I apologize for being a bit heavy-handed on the aggression (I tend to edit my posts back down to reality, but that's hard when you're actively posting). 

 

You both voted Nope.  That's fine.  We're done; no reason to get carried away in the meta-conversation (we're now talking about talking instead of the actual subject).

 

As for why 2 threads?  It's simple: that thread was a discussion; this one is a proposal.

 

@sacredlunatic Don't apologize for it.  If you hadn't, I was going to.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Replacement

[Seancer]

...hm. For scrappers/stalkers I'd like to see a temporary recovery/movement speed spike based on rank with target, and a temporary regen/rech spike for tankers/brutes. If its treated like a proc on a timer then it makes using the power worth it, even if sparingly to balance out target cycling. 

[Leogunner]

29 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I am not trying to buff either specific sets OR scrappers as a whole.

I am just trying to make Confront worth taking.  I'm not going to continue arguing as to why that is necessary.  The devs have already done that.

Powers are tools. If you don't need the tool, maybe it's the content and playstyle options that are the issue. 

 

So I'd say reassess the whole "necessary" part. Would it be a neat change? Maybe. But it changes the utility of the power and likely the animation. 

 

The same could be said for the various threads talking about changing placate. 

 

But then I'm all for posting neat ideas. I don't think it'd be conceptually fitting for every melee set, though. 

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Powers are tools. If you don't need the tool, maybe it's the content and playstyle options that are the issue. 

 

So I'd say reassess the whole "necessary" part. Would it be a neat change? Maybe. But it changes the utility of the power and likely the animation. 

 

The same could be said for the various threads talking about changing placate. 

 

But then I'm all for posting neat ideas. I don't think it'd be conceptually fitting for every melee set, though. 

Errrrr you don't see that Scrappers only have 8 primary powers to choose from and one trap for Roleplay characters?

 

Nothing is "necessary" -- it's an old video game that's already been declared legally dead once.  But as far as "bad game design principles to fix" -- yeah, this one ranks pretty high.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Errrrr you don't see that Scrappers only have 8 primary powers to choose from and one trap for Roleplay characters?

I mean, we can play that game if you want... 

 

Not my fault your elitist, min/max kill speed has trivialize one tool all Scrappers have access to. I guess since no one cares that the game's difficulty has been made child's play by cookie cutter soft cap builds we should conform the whole game to cater to the whims of people prancing around saying how super they feel while pushing over helpless NPCs that pose no threat. 

 

Or, how about we just accept some flaws here and there and not take offense to every hurdle that dares to slow us down? 

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I mean, we can play that game if you want... 

 

Not my fault your elitist, min/max kill speed has trivialize one tool all Scrappers have access to. I guess since no one cares that the game's difficulty has been made child's play by cookie cutter soft cap builds we should conform the whole game to cater to the whims of people prancing around saying how super they feel while pushing over helpless NPCs that pose no threat. 

 

Or, how about we just accept some flaws here and there and not take offense to every hurdle that dares to slow us down? 

So you're saying "it's ok for Confront to suck so I don't have to make decisions and can keep my cookie cutter build."  Gotcha.

 

Do we really need to play this "hyperbolize you into the bad guy" game? 

 

9 powers = 9 choices.  8 powers and a trap = 8 choices.  9 > 8.  More choices; less cookie-cutters.

 

EDIT: I slightly misread you.  My point stands, but I acknowledge you were being intentionally hyperbolic so sorry for taking the bait so hard.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Replacement

[Lazarillo]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

9 powers = 9 choices.  8 powers and a trap = 8 choices.  9 > 8.  More choices; less cookie-cutters.

It's ironic that you're dismissing a power as a "trap" and refusing to acknowledge its potential uses, while also complaining about "cookie-cutter builds".

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

So you're saying "it's ok for Confront to suck so I don't have to make decisions and can keep my cookie cutter build."  Gotcha.

 

Do we really need to play this "hyperbolize you into the bad guy" game? 

 

9 powers = 9 choices.  8 powers and a trap = 8 choices.  9 > 8.  More choices; less cookie-cutters.

Don't hate the player. Hate the game. And you asked to play it. (talking about the hyperbolize game). 

 

While your simple mathematical inequalities pans out, it's based on an assumption that wants to take advantage of a minority...and this is coming from someone who's taken confront a total of 1 time. 

 

It's OK, you have a neat idea that some posters don't like. It's not the end of the game. Again, the main reason I don't care for it is its conceptualizing Scrapper as speedy zippy melee when they're mostly just neutral. 

[Replacement]

5 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

It's ironic that you're dismissing a power as a "trap" and refusing to acknowledge its potential uses, while also complaining about "cookie-cutter builds".

I don't think... it's fine.  I can be nice.

 

A "trap" is a power that only a "noob" will pick.*  Anyone who has played the game long enough to experience a Tanker in action will understand how insurmountable a task it is to make Confront worthwhile.  This means they now have 8 "real" choices.  There's nothing ironic about this.  Most of us want our characters to be good (and if your fiction requires them to suck, I suggest not using enhancements).  Less "real" choices means less build diversity.

 

 

*In CoH, this, sadly, also hits RPers and others who enjoy concept-characters (this is the camp I fall into -- I won't RP in Local chat, but I have ideas, backgrounds, and even character themes in my head.  I do not like to be punished for this).  I'm simultaneously delighted our community is capable of this and dismayed they have to wade through poor choices to realize their concepts.  If we can do better, we should.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

A "trap" is a power that only a "noob" will pick.*  Anyone who has played the game long enough to experience a Tanker in action will understand how insurmountable a task it is to make Confront worthwhile.  This means they now have 8 "real" choices.  There's nothing ironic about this.  Most of us want our characters to be good (and if your fiction requires them to suck, I suggest not using enhancements).  Less "real" choices means less build diversity.

So only a "noob" is smart enough to peel Nemesis Captains away from mobs so you don't have to spend two minutes whiffing on massive Vengeance stacks, among a variety of other situations where enemy placement is a problem?

 

Only a "noob" would consider try to be useful to a League on a Hamidon or BAF raid where multiple taunters are needed and you may not have enough tanks to do the job (and all the Brutes are too ignorant to take their Taunt, either, 'cause "lolIfarm"?

 

Only a "noob" can see that they accomplish these sorts of things by using Confront with a single power pick, and no need for additional slotting that can be put to use elsewhere?

 

It seems to me like you're being dismissive of players for coming up with creative solutions to "modern" problems, despite trying to complain that over-standardization is, itself, a problem.

Honestly, I'm the last person saying that powers should be seen as a "skip".  One of my biggest beefs with the recent Tanker changes was that it created yet another class where the "eh, just take it and ignore it" was given to the t1 secondary power.  And that's exactly why I say that a power in a set that can do something no other power in that set can do, doesn't need to be removed.

 

Tweaked?  Potentially, sure.  I wouldn't mind Confront being buffed.  Add some debuff to it, maybe, or some range, or heck, increase the Taunt magnitude so that it could more easily peel stuff from Tanks, too!  But changing the inherent use of a power that already has a niche does not accomplish this so-called diversity you claim to be promoting.

[Replacement]

18 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

the main reason I don't care for it is its conceptualizing Scrapper as speedy zippy melee when they're mostly just neutral. 

Just wanted to mention, this is the sort of feedback I was hoping to see a lot more of in this thread.  This is a really good point.

 

@Lazarillo Good to see we agree: Confront needs buffs.  You don't like the particular direction of this proposal, and that's fine.

[Lazarillo]

6 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 Good to see we agree: Confront needs buffs.  You don't like the particular direction of this proposal, and that's fine.

I'd hesitate to say "need", but that's always been my point.  Buff Confront all you want, but keep the cottage rule in mind.  If the power is changed in a way that situation like are detailed those examples above become untenable, then the purpose is missed, and that's an immediate /jranger.  "Doing nothing to it is a better solution than taking it away." is the rule of the day.

 

Any change need to keep in mind that right now I have a very useful no-cost, auto-hit ability with twice the range of anything in the repertoire of, say, my Claws Scrapper that can be used to make a single enemy want to kill me right now, more than it makes any of his buddies want to do the same.  There are times when that's extremely useful.  Changing even one of those aspects is unacceptable.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Lazarillo

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I'd hesitate to say "need", but that's always been my point.  Buff Confront all you want, but keep the cottage rule in mind.  If the power is changed in a way that situation like are detailed those examples above become untenable, then the purpose is missed, and that's an immediate /jranger.  "Doing nothing to it is a better solution than taking it away." is the rule of the day.

I'm glad we're making progress and have edged off the hostility.  That said, I do want to point you to this bit I said previously:

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

First, like I mentioned in the other thread, this would only work if Presence-Provoke was buffed enough to satisfy the odd currently-Confronting Scrapper.

Not faulting you if you missed it -- it's in the middle of a lot of text.  But curious to know if that would ease your mind at all.  My thoughts are that Provoke should be as good as a current Provoke+Confront.

 

Bias announcement: I think all power pool powers, including the t1s, should actually be good.  So obviously, this makes Provoke actually good and I'm sure that doesn't sit well with some folk.

[Lazarillo]

Just now, Replacement said:

Not faulting you if you missed it -- it's in the middle of a lot of text.  But curious to know if that would ease your mind at all.  My thoughts are that Provoke should be as good as a current Provoke+Confront.

I added a bit more after the fact, so you may be missing it, but to whit, I don't see the Presence pool as an acceptable substitute, as it requires an accuracy check and is AoE (ironically, Presence used to have a Single Target version, too, and guess what happened...been too long for me to remember if the Accuracy check was always there or not, too).  Not to mention that it counts against power pool choices (which would be a bummer for my main, at least, I can say).  So while I could get behind buffing that power, too, anyway, I don't think it'd be an acceptable replacement.

 

As far as buffing pool powers in general, that's also a change I could potentially get behind, but that might be putting the cart before the horse when there are underperforming powers in primaries and secondaries.  However, it would be an interesting exercise, to a degree, assuming it were counterbalanced in a way.  Given how many people ignore "primary" powers for Pools as it is, I'd say it'd have to be something like cutting the number of pools a player could have in the first place by half, lest you get people doing all-Pool builds and such.  But that's quite the tangent...

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

I'd hesitate to say "need", but that's always been my point.  Buff Confront all you want, but keep the cottage rule in mind. 

If you really want your cake and to eat it too, you could make Confront like a click version of Mystic Flight and get a temporary power for a short time that acts like the ST version presented.

 

I still think it kind of conceptualizes Scrappers as speedsters/zippy.  I frankly just don't see a reason to make Confront a "thing".  It's just a tool...like Build up.  Just because it's a niche tool doesn't mean we should overhaul it unless the AT is in dire straits and needs something.

 

I'd sooner suggest making Confront a target buff for the enemy that slightly increases their ToHit and Damage but also makes it so the Scrapper has, like +20% crit on that target for its duration.  But then again, I don't know if Scrappers *need* a buff like that (which is why I gave it the "target +ToHit/dmg" part)...

 

Trying to think of something conceptually fitting while also not changing it.  I have ideas in my head but maybe another time...

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Bias announcement: I think all power pool powers, including the t1s, should actually be good.  So obviously, this makes Provoke actually good and I'm sure that doesn't sit well with some folk.

Is there a thread for this? I'd be intrigued to hear what people's thoughts are on improving some of the pool powers.

 

I'd even recommend increasing their recharge or having a portion of their recharge that isn't decreased by +rech or outright making them unaffected by -rech in compensation.

[Wavicle]

How about this:

Confront stays the same as it is but when you use it a popup tray appears with a power called Into the Fray, which then lets you teleport directly to the mob you just taunted.  Confront remains on its short cooldown and is still a pull, but Into the Fray is available only on a much longer cooldown which cannot be reduced with recharge buffs.

Edited February 6, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[oedipus_tex]

I do like the idea of there being more range-closing powers. This game is based on comics, and watching most melees casually walk over and punch things really takes me out of the moment.

 

I'm not sure I'm sold on turning Confront into this, but it's interesting. 

 

[Menelruin]

I thought the point of Confront was to bring a mob to you, not bring you to them?  In that vein....is it possible to just apply a massive range-debuff on the target, and combine it with a taunt?  So they HAVE to get in your face in order to attack you?

[siolfir]

Simply to answer the question asked without further assumptions:

45 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

is it possible to just apply a massive range-debuff on the target, and combine it with a taunt?

 

Yes.

(That's also how the power currently works, and it's skipped by nearly everyone.)

[SwitchFade]

1. I want confront to take me to an enemy instantly: not confront any longer, new power and new animations. No thanks, DB confront is really cool looking.

 

2. I want to teleport to my enemy: ok, there's a pool power for that. But I want it targetable. Ok, roll shield or Savage. Or lightning rod. But I want it in every set. Hmm, so those two sets unique mechanic is now mundane. Ok fine, give all sets a teleport, build up+power up, a ranged attack like claws and make all have 2 AoE. Also, give each set a heal. Now, all have standard mechanics.

 

3. I want for confront be worth taking. Ok, this I agree with. Great, let's change it completely. Haughty no thanks, how about we polish it?

 

4. Make confront a choice on par with the other powers in the set. Ok, I'm all for that, how? Teleport. No, see above. How about we find a strategic way to make it work as described? Friend targetable aggro pull? Friend targatable stun those attacking him?

 

5. But I want to close the gap. Nice, me too! I recommend swift, CJ, ninja run, the W key, Savage melee, shield, roll a blaster. But I want my melee toon to negate the cost reward trade off for rolling melee and not ranged. No thanks, see above 

 

6. But we need to make confront better and the devs agree. Sweet, so do I! Sorry, teleport is not it. What's more, that would be something I wouldn't take, and you don't know if others would take it, but I recommend gathering data so we can prove that they would or not (like a poll or questionnaire). Plus, it would be far inferior to the other 8 powers and my build has no room for sacrificing, say, golden dragonfly for telefront.

 

7. Yes but see, it takes me to the enemy. Ok let's just entertain this as confront rework. Confront is strategic, like pulling a MOB off a squishy, or a boss from a group. Lost that ability, drat. Hmm ok, so now I can just port to anyone. Ok fine, let's assume it's still strategic. I see squishy health bar dropping out of the corner or my scraplock eye, and I stop and click their bar to Target them, spin around to see them realize they have 1-17 baddies on them and need help. I click new power, I wait for animation, I pop out next to them and go to work. Squishy take hits and dies during. What's more, if I click the same Ally bar mad hit F, I Auto run to them which would be the exact same timelapse as click, cast new power, wait, animate, appear and attack. Pointless as a confront strategic mechanic. Let's call it what it is, you don't want confront, you want a whole new power that lets you teleport about. Me too, so I take teleport instead of SJ. No thanks on the change.

 

Let's be frank, no disrespect intended. Teleport as part of every set is plainly not just a better confront, it is a mechanical redesign to the AT. Not even diving into the limited Dev resources that would have to be committed to such an effort. I like your zeal, I respect your effort, but this is an Edsel.

Edited February 6, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Leogunner]

It would also mean Confront would have to have an increased cooldown and endurance cost. 

 

I'm not opposed to teleport powers added to scrapper or melee in general... But it shouldn't be common. For example, if Martial Arts and one other set (I dunno, dark melee) got a teleport mechanic added to their set, I think that would make those sets more interesting. Just adding it to every set makes it not so special. 

[Replacement]

* I do not like the cottage rule argument if the replacement proposal comes with a promise that you can grab a better version of Confront from a Power Pool.

 

* "Zippy" Scrappers -- valid, but wolverine lunges; why can't I?  I think just about every comic book Scrapper is mobile, even if they aren't speedsters.  Moreover, you can continue to skip it and be unaffected (because the statistics say you're not taking it now).

 

* Spring attack ("Choose a pool power if you want it" response) -- Along with some other Confront buff (see next bullet point), I would be good with this if it were at all viable.  Requires 3 powers and has a 2 minute cooldown.  Now if we got that Teleport Pool rework, maybe we'd be getting somewhere, though it still doesn't open up as many aesthetic options.

 

*Scrappers have a power that is not part of their job description (especially since Going Rogue said Your 2nd Pick for Tank is Over There).  This is why Sacredlunatic suggested a universal swap-in: at least it's in-line with doing what you've been invited to do.  Even if Spring Attack/Teleport pool were made viable, it wouldn't resolve the fact that Confront is largely a waste of space.

 

* @Lazarillo, just clarifying; not trying to change your mind: when I say "buff Provoke to be appealing even to folks running Confront+Provoke right now" I would remove the accuracy check as Step 1, and I wouldn't stop there.  I had forgotten it was aoe, though.  Mystic Flight treatment would be interesting, as someone above mentioned (50' range for the aoe version, 70' for the ST version)

 

So maybe back to my barebones low-impact version I outlined in the other thread: Using Confront gives the Scrapper a 3 second move speed boost, in addition to all the things it currently does.

Works, doesn't ruin anyone's fiction (because, again, you're not taking Confront right now anyway), but is way less interesting.

 

EDIT: I'd also be interested to know just how many of those Scrappers that are taking Confront are doing so for IOs.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Replacement

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

*snippity snip* Now if we got that Teleport Pool rework, maybe we'd be getting somewhere, though it still doesn't open up as many aesthetic options.

 

I would yes vote this. The weight of return on investment reworking pools like tele and presence far outwieghs a single power from one AT. Further, it would give a valid reason to take it and satiate the "want meleeport" build desire, as well as an option for aggro fun.

 

Doesn't solve the confront, but let's face it, in terms of importance, this is bottom of the list as it doesn't hurt any scrapper to have it and use it, unlike DIMENSION SHIFT, which borks you and your team 8 out of 9 times you use it.

 

Also replacement, I would up vote the 3 second speed boost, but am wary and hesitant because with it's current recharge it could be perma, which is not acceptable. And, increasing the recharge takes away the good it does now.

[Leogunner]

36 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I would yes vote this. The weight of return on investment reworking pools like tele and presence far outwieghs a single power from one AT. Further, it would give a valid reason to take it and satiate the "want meleeport" build desire, as well as an option for aggro fun.

 

Doesn't solve the confront, but let's face it, in terms of importance, this is bottom of the list as it doesn't hurt any scrapper to have it and use it, unlike DIMENSION SHIFT, which borks you and your team 8 out of 9 times you use it.

 

Also replacement, I would up vote the 3 second speed boost, but am wary and hesitant because with it's current recharge it could be perma, which is not acceptable. And, increasing the recharge takes away the good it does now.

I could actually see combining Recall Friend and TP Foe into one power and the replacement could be a "teleport to target" with a short animation and moderate cooldown perhaps limited to 60' but enhancable. Maybe also giving the user a short defense buff after the TP for variety of slotting. 

 

As for Dimension Shift, if you're so blind you can see huge floating words saying "DIMENSION SHIFTED" floating over their heads, you deserve to waste your AoE. Also, you can simply run over and get yourself shifted to continue the attack. 

 

I think Dimension Shift is fine as is.