AV Killer?

[Coyote]

Dark is a pretty good set for Dominators. It brings extra defensive ability, to make up for their lack of a secondary that helps with defense. The damage you get from the pets isn't as relevant as it is for Controllers, but the -ToHit is a lot more relevant. And it benefits from a secondary with Power Up, so that you can boost the -ToHit of an opening Fearsome Stare/Living Shadows combination to around -30%.

[Voltak]

I am not about to write "theories" as a response in the thread. 

I am going to give what actually works and what actually has done it (and proven and verified personally with my own eyes to do so).

Dark/Dark/Soul Dominator 

Has Solo'd AVs 

 from Clamor (Yin TF) ( no def caps in build, no resists caps) at lvl 25 or whatever the lvl limit was

Sinclair lvl 53 AV +3 (AV was incarnate shifted as well) - using only one green and one red inspirations, no shivas, radio summon powers from P2W. 

ITF 54 x 8  -  NO INSPIRATIONS, NO P2W, NO Ampliers, no shivans, temp powers turned off

Solo'd REQUIEM and ROMMY during the ITF above in part 3 and 4 or course.

I will write another post about it   

El Abismal
Excelsior server. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

On 2/23/2020 at 12:10 AM, Coyote said:

Dark is a pretty good set for Dominators. It brings extra defensive ability, to make up for their lack of a secondary that helps with defense. The damage you get from the pets isn't as relevant as it is for Controllers, but the -ToHit is a lot more relevant. And it benefits from a secondary with Power Up, so that you can boost the -ToHit of an opening Fearsome Stare/Living Shadows combination to around -30%.

But in this case the secondary helps lot with the defense because the secondary is Dark. 

More - to hit debuff and fast recharging heal from range, and a rarely resisted dmg type. 

Dark assault is a very good dmg dealing set as well. 

After playing it for so long and after seeing the immense synergy of the primary and secondary, it is very hard for me to make another Dark/ dominator without the Dark secondary.   
 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

On 2/11/2020 at 9:43 PM, Coyote said:

To perma-Hold an AV you have to stack 9 or so Domination level Holds on it. So it's a matter of how long do your Holds last, versus how fast can you cycle them? Single-target Confuses last longer, so it's easier to stack them. Also, they don't aggro the AV, so you can build up the stack without getting killed.

 

For soloing AVs, you need enough Recharge to have perma-Dom, and more helps with recharging the Hold faster so that it's easier to stack. Alternately, you could give up on Hold-stacking, and just range-Tank the AV with capped Ranged Defense. For that you still want perma-Dom for mez protection, but then Defense/Resist/Regeneration becomes more important than squeezing out a bit more Recharge bonus. Damage is almost a last option, because you first need Recharge, then defensive stats... if you pick up Damage on the way there that's great, but it's rarely an option to put ahead of Recharge, Defense, or Regeneration... and probably not ahead of Resists.

 

I have yet to see evidence that proves this claim that we can permanently hold or confuse any AV of equal level or above. 

I am someone with vast experience tackling AVs with controllers or dominators. 

None of the theories I read on the forums have proven true in practice.  

PERMA hold has not been proven that I know of.  

Plenty of theories are out there.  

I am not looking for a debate nor do I mean this to disrespect anyone. 

I am looking for evidence, visual evidence, that this claim is true. 

[Voltak]

On 2/11/2020 at 2:34 AM, Dr Causality said:

I had a mind/fire back on Live that solo-ed things like the ITF before Incarnate powers.  I used all Confuse without switching to Holds.  You get somewhat less damage that way since your confuse spamming does no damage, but with the Contagious Confusion proc, it's actually much easier to stack Confuse on a high recharge build, so it was surprisingly safe.  And it's also pretty amusing to have AV's like Romulus either out right kill off the other AVs.  

 

But since coming back I've been thinking that Dark is probably better than Mind for the same reasons you're mentioning about pet damage.   All you're really missing from Mind's toolkit is the aoe Sleep.    The pets will give you a massive DPS boost and let you slot the pet uniques that also buff your Lore pets.  The taunt from Haunt should help you survive any gaps in confuse.   And the Haunt Shades taking damage unlike Illusions Phantasms is easier to work around with Domination keep the AV's mezzed.     Dark really should be hands down the AV killer Dom primary.   

 

The only reason I haven't finished building one yet, is haven't been able to settle on a 2ndary.   

 

• Fire has great single target dmg.   But surprisingly aoe damage is not all that impressive and I read that they don't get access to the new fast snipe?  Anyone know if that's correct?  That would be deal breaker for me on fire.  
• Psi having the highest -Regen in game makes it a contender despite not so great attacks.
• Martial (pre-nerf) had what on Beta felt like very respectable single target and great aoe.  But looks less appealing after the admittedly broken Envenomed Blade's nerf.  (This led me to abandon mine in the 30s...)
• Rad looks like it might be doable since it can slot for -Rech and extra dmg procs
• Earth has some very high DPA melee attacks.   But I don't love the idea of being in melee range when I'm a glass cannon slotting mostly for Recharge and Dmg bonuses.  One miscalculated slip up with  stacking Confuse against an AV and they can easily one shot you from Melee range.   

 

Basically, I'm not entirely set on or satisfied with any of them, so haven't been motivated to finish building one yet. 

Let the film do all the talking here.  I have nothing more to add beside the video 🙂

 

 

[WitchofDread]

How about a dark/Psi?

 

Perma Hasten & Dom

 

42.58% S/L Def

44.05% ranged Def

But all the -to hit should help negate the small % differences.

 

 

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Should have a decent ST attack chain: Dark Grasp > Mental Blast > Subdue > Psionic Lance

 

Lacking in aoe so will just have to rely on Psychic Shockwave when needed.

Edited August 31, 2021 by WitchofDread

[DocMidknight]

@WitchofDread....dark/psi is very nice and I just respec'd mine into sorcery and Ice mastery

[WitchofDread]

@DocMidknight oo nice! I'd be interested to see if your build if you don't mind sharing. I have a dark/dark/soul trolley now so I just want to see how they both compare really.

[DocMidknight]

@WitchofDread....I can post it for you when I ger off work, such a fun build

[DocMidknight]

@WitchofDread, here's my dark/psi dom build......it's built to my playstyle with some interesting power choices based on theme of character but she works surprisingly well even with all the user error I put her through

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.6.0
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Darkness Control
Secondary Power Set: Psionic Assault
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Dark Grasp -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(40), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(43), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(45)
Level 1: Psionic Dart -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Mind Probe -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(37), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(37)
Level 4: Telekinetic Thrust -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(5), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(36)
Level 6: Possess -- CrcPrs-Conf(A), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(7), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(7), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(34), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(34), CrcPrs-Conf%(36)
Level 8: Fearsome Stare -- SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprAscoft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(9), SprAscoft-EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(11), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprAscoft-Rchg/+Dmg%(29)
Level 10: Mystic Flight -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 12: Heart of Darkness -- Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Obl-%Dam(13), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(13), Erd-%Dam(15), ScrDrv-Dam%(17), CldSns-%Dam(17)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 16: Spirit Ward -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 18: Haunt -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(19), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(23)
Level 20: Drain Psyche -- PreOptmz-Acc/Rech(A), PreOptmz-EndMod/Acc/Rech(21), ThfofEss-Acc/Heal(21), ThfofEss-+End%(23)
Level 22: Rune of Protection -- TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(A)
Level 24: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25), Ksm-ToHit+(25)
Level 26: Shadow Field -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(27), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(27), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(29)
Level 28: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), UnbGrd-ResDam(31), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(31), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 32: Umbra Beast -- CaltoArm-Acc/Rchg(A), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg(33), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(46)
Level 35: Sleet -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(46), Ann-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 38: Psychic Shockwave -- Arm-Dam%(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(39), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(40)
Level 41: Psionic Lance -- GldJvl-Dam%(A), StnoftheM-Dam%(42), StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg(42), StnoftheM-Acc/ActRdx/Rng(42), StnoftheM-Dmg/ActRdx/Rchg(43), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Frozen Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(45), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Ice Storm -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(48), Rgn-Knock%(50)
Level 49: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(50), Rct-Def(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Domination 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 49: Quick Form 
------------

[WitchofDread]

@DocMidknight this is kind of a mixed bag really. I think you would be better aiming for either higher resistance or higher def instead of trying for a mix of both as with those levels neither would help a great deal.

 

You are quite far off perma hasten which is quite easy to remedy on a dom.

 

The version of Sleet that is available to Dominators is pretty ineffectual and the -res doesn't always trigger/doesn't last the full duration of the power. Also i'm pretty certain procs do not work in rain type powers despite what some others say. Water Spout would be a better bet unfortunately. 

 

You could drop a slot in Sleet and put it in Shadow field then slots 5 Unbreakable constraint which will yield you a bit more rech time.

 

Just some observations.

[DocMidknight]

@WitchofDread....you are correct on your observations  but as she was built more theme and less min/max but still works suprisingly well 

[WitchofDread]

So after a great deal of deliberating and changes i have created the following Dark/Psi/Psi build:

 

Perma Hasten & Dom

44.27% Ranged def, everything else is pretty much 28%

72.27% S/L res

 

Tried to get a balance of procs and set bonuses which is a challenge!

 

 

 

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[WitchofDread]

1 minute ago, DocMidknight said:

@WitchofDread....you are correct on your observations  but as she was built more theme and less min/max but still works suprisingly well 

@DocMidknight Thats fair man!

 

Check out the build i just posted.

[Cenozoic]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:02 PM, Voltak said:

 

I have yet to see evidence that proves this claim that we can permanently hold or confuse any AV of equal level or above. 

I am someone with vast experience tackling AVs with controllers or dominators. 

None of the theories I read on the forums have proven true in practice.  

PERMA hold has not been proven that I know of.  

Plenty of theories are out there.  

I am not looking for a debate nor do I mean this to disrespect anyone. 

I am looking for evidence, visual evidence, that this claim is true. 

 

Still looking for evidence of Perma-hold?  My main is a Mind/Psi/Mace. 

 

We can team up on a shard.  You set up the AV mission in AE or something (51 or higher since I am Incarnate).  I will solo them.  Notes:

• Some AVs can't really be held (Avatar of Hamidon and Lord Recluse come to mind)
• GMs have double the hold protection of AVs, so that's not the same conversation
• Would love to avoid Honoree, Marauder, or other insane regen/resistance guys.  Though they can be solo'd, it is super boring.
• Good examples are Serafina, Ghost Widow, or Positron.

Bring your Power Analyzer.

[Voltak]

This is fantastic 

Thanks a lot

Excelsior server 

I have one mission still in my contacts /list 

 

Say when 

We will do top lvl AVs and low level AVs, one of each, or just one if the other can't be done. 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Voltak

[Cenozoic]

Cool man.  I am @Cenozoic in-game.  Moved over to Excelsior.  I am usually on 2200-0100 EST (0200-0500 UTC).

[nihilii]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:43 AM, Coyote said:

To perma-Hold an AV you have to stack 9 or so Domination level Holds on it.

 

Right here ^ is the easy answer to some of the recent... let's say, "enquiries for enlightenment framed in a questionable way".

 

It takes maybe 30 minutes tops to tune up a Fire or Mind Dominator with Power Boost on the Test Server from scratch, and test this out against an AV.

[Cenozoic]

57 minutes ago, nihilii said:

 

Right here ^ is the easy answer to some of the recent... let's say, "enquiries for enlightenment framed in a questionable way".

 

It takes maybe 30 minutes tops to tune up a Fire or Mind Dominator with Power Boost on the Test Server from scratch, and test this out against an AV.

 

Good point.

 

On that note, 9x6 = 54, which may not hold some AVs, as they also have the stacked, inherent protection of Bosses (+6 to overcome).  So, you will need permanent Mag 57 or higher hold stacked.  Still doable.  I ran a test against 54 Ghost Widow in AE last night, and was fine at perma-mag 60.  Anything less and she would invariable come out of hold and attack once or twice.  Same with Anti-Matter.  Neither of those holds went below 54, according to Power Analyzer, so take that for what it's worth.

[Voltak]

13 hours ago, nihilii said:

 

Right here ^ is the easy answer to some of the recent... let's say, "enquiries for enlightenment framed in a questionable way".

 

It takes maybe 30 minutes tops to tune up a Fire or Mind Dominator with Power Boost on the Test Server from scratch, and test this out against an AV.

 First of all nihi, I was never ever trying to get a debate going nor disrespect anyone and I said what I said with nothing but good intentions. 

Now, I tested this theory you wrote about, which has been posted before,  and at all kinds of different levels, many times. 

This theory did not hold.  Failed. 

But the good news is that today we might see in reality if it can be done and also how many stacks exactly does it take to do so.  

Stay tuned. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Voltak

[Cenozoic]

As a general follow-up to Power Boost, it does positively impact the hold sequence, though Mind and Fire Doms will be able to perma-hold without it (I have never used Power Boost due to inconsistent cycling for stacks).

[Voltak]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:19 AM, nihilii said:

 

Right here ^ is the easy answer to some of the recent... let's say, "enquiries for enlightenment framed in a questionable way".

 

It takes maybe 30 minutes tops to tune up a Fire or Mind Dominator with Power Boost on the Test Server from scratch, and test this out against an AV.

Ok, so we did the tests yesterday.  Many sincere thanks and kudos to @Cenozoic for coming over to the server and helping me to carry on these tests .

Here are the results 

Lvl 54 AV could not be permanently held nor confused.  Even after passing magnitude 56 and 57.  The AV at Lvl 54 was shedding off the magnitudes faster than you can blink.  Since they seemed to drop by 6, going from 57 down to 45 seemed to happen way too fast. 

 @Cenozoic Got hammered as soon as the AV broke free, a quick painless death.  We are going to try again and see what numbers might be needed but even at 57 - 60 it was not enough to keep her held. 

I am thinking we try passing 66 magnitude and see how it goes. 

We dropped it down to Lvl 52

At level 52, the key was reaching magnitude 57, not 54.  Here's why.  Numbers fluctuated by 6 when they went down in magnitude. 
If you reach magnitude 54 and you proceed to attack thinking you are safe, when the numbers fluctuate, they will drop by 6, leaving you at 49, AV will break free and then you are in trouble. 
So the key at lvl 52 was to reach and pass 57 or to never let it drop below 57. 

We tried Lvl 25, +0 AV lvl difficulty settings.  We fought Clamor. 

Same thing 57 and higher is what kept you safe. 

I am glad to make another friend in game. He's a cool cat. 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Voltak

[WitchofDread]

2 hours ago, Voltak said:

Ok, so we did the tests yesterday.  Many sincere thanks and kudos to @Cenozoic for coming over to the server and helping me to carry on these tests .

Here are the results 

Lvl 54 AV could not be permanently held nor confused.  Even after passing magnitude 56 and 57.  The AV at Lvl 54 was shedding off the magnitudes faster than you can blink.  Since they seemed to drop by 6, going from 57 down to 45 seemed to happen way too fast. 

 @Cenozoic Got hammered as soon as the AV broke free, a quick painless death.  We are going to try again and see what numbers might be needed but even at 57 - 60 it was not enough to keep her held. 

I am thinking we try passing 66 magnitude and see how it goes. 

We dropped it down to Lvl 52

At level 52, the key was reaching magnitude 57, not 54.  Here's why.  Numbers fluctuated by 6 when they went down in magnitude. 
If you reach magnitude 54 and you proceed to attack thinking you are safe, when the numbers fluctuate, they will drop by 6, leaving you at 49, AV will break free and then you are in trouble. 
So the key at lvl 52 was to reach and pass 57 or to never let it drop below 57. 

We tried Lvl 25, +0 AV lvl difficulty settings.  We fought Clamor. 

Same thing 57 and higher is what kept you safe. 

I am glad to make another friend in game. He's a cool cat. 

 

Good work!

[Cenozoic]

3 hours ago, Voltak said:

Ok, so we did the tests yesterday.  Many sincere thanks and kudos to @Cenozoic for coming over to the server and helping me to carry on these tests .

Here are the results 

Lvl 54 AV could not be permanently held nor confused.  Even after passing magnitude 56 and 57.  The AV at Lvl 54 was shedding off the magnitudes faster than you can blink.  Since they seemed to drop by 6, going from 57 down to 45 seemed to happen way too fast. 

 @Cenozoic Got hammered as soon as the AV broke free, a quick painless death.  We are going to try again and see what numbers might be needed but even at 57 - 60 it was not enough to keep her held. 

I am thinking we try passing 66 magnitude and see how it goes. 

We dropped it down to Lvl 52

At level 52, the key was reaching magnitude 57, not 54.  Here's why.  Numbers fluctuated by 6 when they went down in magnitude. 
If you reach magnitude 54 and you proceed to attack thinking you are safe, when the numbers fluctuate, they will drop by 6, leaving you at 49, AV will break free and then you are in trouble. 
So the key at lvl 52 was to reach and pass 57 or to never let it drop below 57. 

We tried Lvl 25, +0 AV lvl difficulty settings.  We fought Clamor. 

Same thing 57 and higher is what kept you safe. 

I am glad to make another friend in game. He's a cool cat. 

 

 

I appreciate the kind words bro!  To update the mez community, I have completed a modified build that should solve the lvl 54 AV permahold issue.  The specific AV, Giovanna Scaldi, has 20% psionic defense, so I needed to improve my debuffing performance in addition to increasing my inherent accuracy. 

 

Toon updates:

• Added "Poisonous Ray" to add permanent -Res of about -35% Psi (Giovanna has no Psi resists, only defense)
• Added "Tactics" to improve ToHit ... this will markedly improve hold stacking on Giovanna
• Changed "Drain Psyche" powerset --- the -Regen component is no longer modifiable, so switched to Preemptive Optimization set
• Change "Summon Tarantula" powerset --- added Achilles Heel proc to the tarantula's autohit -Defense debuff
• General streamlining to keep global recharge ~207% with permahasten, permadom, and perma-Drain Psyche (the hardest of the three to perma)

Cheers!

[Voltak]

3 hours ago, Cenozoic said:

 

I appreciate the kind words bro!  To update the mez community, I have completed a modified build that should solve the lvl 54 AV permahold issue.  The specific AV, Giovanna Scaldi, has 20% psionic defense, so I needed to improve my debuffing performance in addition to increasing my inherent accuracy. 

 

Toon updates:

• Added "Poisonous Ray" to add permanent -Res of about -35% Psi (Giovanna has no Psi resists, only defense)
• Added "Tactics" to improve ToHit ... this will markedly improve hold stacking on Giovanna
• Changed "Drain Psyche" powerset --- the -Regen component is no longer modifiable, so switched to Preemptive Optimization set
• Change "Summon Tarantula" powerset --- added Achilles Heel proc to the tarantula's autohit -Defense debuff
• General streamlining to keep global recharge ~207% with permahasten, permadom, and perma-Drain Psyche (the hardest of the three to perma)

Cheers!

The issue at hand that needs the most attention is the fact that a lvl. 54 AV is shedding off those magnitudes way faster than AVs of lower levels. 

I was seeing the magnitudes drop very fast, in the 12s going down, and in the 6s on better occasions. 

So 57 + 12 means we should aim for a mag 69 - 70

We will test that and go from there

I might add that this is where the combo Dark/Dark has an edge over others


While Dark/Dark is trying to stack mez and also attacking, it is stacking the to hit debuffs every time.  This makes the fight for the AV to kill you much more difficult 

If you take high defenses (in my case very high range defense) and you add the to hit debuffs in the power sets you are adding significantly to your safety.   This is one big reason why I felt confident in being able to Kill ROmmy lvl 54 with no inspirations and temps were disabled as well. 

Psy attacks are a different issue because I THINK they are inherently more accurate. 

Giovanna will still miss a lot but not as much as Rommy missed, he missed 95% OF THE TIMES.  🙂

Edited September 4, 2021 by Voltak