AV Killer?

[VV]

So, in most of the AT subforums there are numerous threads about the best AV killing combo, but I don't think I've ever seen one in the Dominator threads. Are Doms just so bad at AV killing that nobody wants to talk about it? Are they so good at AV killing that there's no need to talk about it? Anyway, in your experience, what is the best Dominator combo to do AV/GM hunting?

[Coyote]

Mind/Psy.

 

Mind allows you to stack Confuses until the AV is confused, then switch to Holds, and it has a fast animation on the Hold so you can perma-Hold AVs. Drain Psyche helps with its -Regen.

 

Other options:

Mind/Fire (more damage, no -Regen... better against AVs with low Resists, worse against AVs with high Resists).

 

Fire/Psy, Fire/Fire (no Confuse, so you start off with Holds... riskier, and you'll probably need Lucks to survive, but once the AV is Held it's pretty safe, and Fire adds damage that doesn't cut into your Holding cycle.

 

Plant/Dark. Not as all-around against most AVs as the others since you're hover-tanking them, but with Tree of Life for Regeneration, and Dark's self-heal for healing, it has survivability.

 

Electric/Psy. Not positive about this one, but it looks as if it should be able to End-drain an AV since Drain Psyche puts out 500%... you need about 670% to stop an AV (after level adjustments). Then the -Regen from Psy helps beat the AV's regen.

[mbre2006]

I've used my Ice/Ice to take down AVs.  As well as Grav/Nrgy. But the easiest one to take down AVs would be my earth/psi. That thing is proc heavy and makes thnings a bit unfun in far as challenge which is why i rarely play it anymore. 

[Frosticus]

The -regen of /psi, or the massive dps (and range) of /fire are good choices.

 

I'll toss a nod toward dark control. You can stack confuses almost as well as mind, but do a truck load more damage with haunts and doggo. The considerable tohit debuffing, even though heavily resisted, can still make a dent when layered with decent defenses. 

 

They generally don't have a direct approach though as they lack the debuffs/armor to take them head on as well as some other AT's. IO's, insp, temps, just depends what you are willing to utilize. 

[Templarstone]

Mind/ fire and psy were soloing masters LRsfs long before Incarnates came around 

[Dr Causality]

On 2/5/2020 at 6:02 PM, Frosticus said:

The -regen of /psi, or the massive dps (and range) of /fire are good choices.

 

I'll toss a nod toward dark control. You can stack confuses almost as well as mind, but do a truck load more damage with haunts and doggo. The considerable tohit debuffing, even though heavily resisted, can still make a dent when layered with decent defenses. 

 

They generally don't have a direct approach though as they lack the debuffs/armor to take them head on as well as some other AT's. IO's, insp, temps, just depends what you are willing to utilize. 

I had a mind/fire back on Live that solo-ed things like the ITF before Incarnate powers.  I used all Confuse without switching to Holds.  You get somewhat less damage that way since your confuse spamming does no damage, but with the Contagious Confusion proc, it's actually much easier to stack Confuse on a high recharge build, so it was surprisingly safe.  And it's also pretty amusing to have AV's like Romulus either out right kill off the other AVs.  

 

But since coming back I've been thinking that Dark is probably better than Mind for the same reasons you're mentioning about pet damage.   All you're really missing from Mind's toolkit is the aoe Sleep.    The pets will give you a massive DPS boost and let you slot the pet uniques that also buff your Lore pets.  The taunt from Haunt should help you survive any gaps in confuse.   And the Haunt Shades taking damage unlike Illusions Phantasms is easier to work around with Domination keep the AV's mezzed.     Dark really should be hands down the AV killer Dom primary.   

 

The only reason I haven't finished building one yet, is haven't been able to settle on a 2ndary.   

 

• Fire has great single target dmg.   But surprisingly aoe damage is not all that impressive and I read that they don't get access to the new fast snipe?  Anyone know if that's correct?  That would be deal breaker for me on fire.  
• Psi having the highest -Regen in game makes it a contender despite not so great attacks.
• Martial (pre-nerf) had what on Beta felt like very respectable single target and great aoe.  But looks less appealing after the admittedly broken Envenomed Blade's nerf.  (This led me to abandon mine in the 30s...)
• Rad looks like it might be doable since it can slot for -Rech and extra dmg procs
• Earth has some very high DPA melee attacks.   But I don't love the idea of being in melee range when I'm a glass cannon slotting mostly for Recharge and Dmg bonuses.  One miscalculated slip up with  stacking Confuse against an AV and they can easily one shot you from Melee range.   

 

Basically, I'm not entirely set on or satisfied with any of them, so haven't been motivated to finish building one yet. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Frosticus]

interestingly enough, the taunt of the haunts is misleading. They dont actually taunt the target, but rather they are taunted on to the initial target that you cast them upon. So they focus on that target until it is defeated and then free roam like a normal pet until expiry. 

[Machariel]

1 hour ago, Dr Causality said:

• Fire has great single target dmg.   But surprisingly aoe damage is not all that impressive and I read that they don't get access to the new fast snipe?  Anyone know if that's correct?  That would be deal breaker for me on fire.  

Blazing Bolt fortunately works just like any other snipe, and is an excellent power.  However, because Fiery Assault's build up power doesn't give +tohit, you don't get as much of the bonus damage from having up to 22% tohit 🙂

[nihilii]

^ while true, it's worth considering Tactics and Kismet gets you most of the way. Fire Blast -> Char/Dominate -> Blaze -> Fire Blast -> Char/Dominate -> Blazing Bolt deals astounding ST damage, very close to what Blasters can put out at range.

 

Another thought: the +damage Dom ATO does so much for ST attack chains. It's a reliable double stack, +43% if I'm not mistaken. That's like having a second T4 Musculature Alpha. Combos using this ATO as part of their optimal attack chain are advantaged.

This makes Fire/ and Mind/ uniquely suited to fill gaps in any secondary, thanks to their fast-animating hold.

But beyond that, I think just about any Dominator should be able to solo most AVs, if built for it. The various Dom buffs over the years, including the recent one, plus the inclusion of fast snipes... It's just that good.

 

Especially with Sleet as an epic choice! Access to one of the best -res powers on an AT with high base damage works wonders.

[Dr Causality]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

Another thought: the +damage Dom ATO does so much for ST attack chains. It's a reliable double stack, +43% if I'm not mistaken. That's like having a second T4 Musculature Alpha. Combos using this ATO as part of their optimal attack chain are advantaged.

Something I noticed was the ATO was accepted into certain 2ndary powers.  

 

• Martial's Thunder Kick --  Should be very interesting for single target attack chains since it's a very respectable base dpa of 109.  Because the Superior ATO version is a 6 PPM, at zero recharge it would still have a respectable 66% chance to proc in Thunder Kick which has a 7s recharge and blazing fast activation.  With the buffs 10s duration, on a high recharge build this should easily allow stacking while doing solid dpa.  
• Thorns Impale - For a ranged power with a 72 dpa.  

It wouldn't help with soloing AV's, but the aoe powers might be craziest.  The question is does it stack?  And if so, how many times?

• Earth's Fissure --   The 6 PPM means with zero recharge it has an 85% chance to proc in radius 10 aoe power.  
• Electric's Thunderstrike:   Larger 12' radius than Fissure with much better dpa.   Drops to a still respectable 78% chance to proc. 
• Energy's Whirling Hands:   Even larger 15' radius and higher recharge.
• Etc.

[VV]

Interesting, so what is it about confuses that make them better against AVs? Are they less resisted than holds? I happen to have a Mind/Psy sitting around doing nothing. If she could be retooled to be an AV killer, that would be sweet.

 

Second, when building to kill AVs, do you still focus on recharge/damage set bonuses first, followed by defense/resist? Or is there a different set slotting strategy?

[Coyote]

To perma-Hold an AV you have to stack 9 or so Domination level Holds on it. So it's a matter of how long do your Holds last, versus how fast can you cycle them? Single-target Confuses last longer, so it's easier to stack them. Also, they don't aggro the AV, so you can build up the stack without getting killed.

 

For soloing AVs, you need enough Recharge to have perma-Dom, and more helps with recharging the Hold faster so that it's easier to stack. Alternately, you could give up on Hold-stacking, and just range-Tank the AV with capped Ranged Defense. For that you still want perma-Dom for mez protection, but then Defense/Resist/Regeneration becomes more important than squeezing out a bit more Recharge bonus. Damage is almost a last option, because you first need Recharge, then defensive stats... if you pick up Damage on the way there that's great, but it's rarely an option to put ahead of Recharge, Defense, or Regeneration... and probably not ahead of Resists.

[Dr Causality]

41 minutes ago, VV said:

Interesting, so what is it about confuses that make them better against AVs? Are they less resisted than holds?

 

Base Recharge and Mag is the same as the single target Holds but the base duration is 29.8s vs only 17.88sfor the Holds.  That difference gets further increased by Enhancements and Domination.   All told that means you can stack a far higher magnitude of Confuse than you can Hold, because with full Enhancement and Domination up its translate to around 40s of additional duration (roughly 92s duration for Confuse versus 53s for Holds.)   Which given the low Recharge often roughly 3s rech of these power translates into numerous additional possible stacks of Confuses.  

 

Additionally, Confuse (unless you slot with dmg proc) generates no aggro, so if you're stealthed you can build up to the needed mag of Confuse mezz in complete safety.  My old Dom builds from live didn't even slot for Def or Resistance, all recharge and dmg.  🙂     

 

The Confuse Proc is also another small advantage.  It's 4.5PPM, 10s duration and Mag3 mezz, whereas the best Hold proc is Devastation 3PPM, 8s duration and is only Mag2.   

 

Where Holds have the advantage is you're doing some damage while keeping the AV mezzed.    But you have to be able to take the aggro while you build up the required mezz stacks.  And you also have to use Holds much more frequently to maintain the same overall level Mag of mezz, because each stack of hold mezz expires sooner.  So you can use fewer Confuses, letting you use more of your high damage attacks in the mezz-attack-chain.    To get the most from either you need to slot for mezz enhancement.  That means you can't fully proc the hold to maximize the damage.     Confuses do have longer activation times than the better Holds like Fire.    On controllers Hold stacking has the advantage of generating the Containment that you need for Dmg. But Dom's don't have this worry.  

 

 

**Edit** Fully ninja-ed by @Troo and @Coyote.   🙂

Edited February 12, 2020 by Dr Causality

[oedipus_tex]

The somewhat irritating thing about Dominator ATOs is they are designed for powers that are controls but not attacks. Where Scrappers, Blasters, and even Defenders got ATOs they can slot in their blasts and punches, Dominators are stuck trying to shoehorn the ATOs into the small number of powers that are both a) Controls and b) do not need Damage slotting. For most Dominators this turns out to be no more than about 2 powers--usually the AoE Hold and one other power. And for a lot of those other powers, better slotting is available.

 

This is in contrast to the better designed (IMO) ATOs for Defenders and Corruptors, where the ATO applies to their blast powers and there are multiple options on how to slot them. The ATOs for Dominators can't be slotted in most Assault powers, and where they can be, you'd need damage slotting so wouldn't want to.

 

Lately I've been 6-slotting the single target Hold with the ATO that provides +5 Ranged Defense at 6 slots and the damage proc. But this is a choice made under duress. That power would be better slotted as an attack than a Control. There just aren't other available options for most Dominators on where to put 6 slots of this set for the bonuses.

You could of course frankenslot and just grab the proc, but you're missing out on the +5 Ranged defense for 6 slotting. Only one other IO set (Coercive Persuasion, the Purple Confuse set) gives +5 Ranged defense (as well as +10 Recharge at 5 slots). 

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

This is in contrast to the better designed (IMO) ATOs for Defenders and Corruptors, where the ATO applies to their blast powers and there are multiple options on how to slot them. The ATOs for Dominators can't be slotted in most Assault powers, and where they can be, you'd need damage slotting so wouldn't want to.

Ya, the dom ATOs are sort of junk. The fire front is disappointing (as is the troller one too).

The +dam one could be ok, I'd be happy if you could slot it in any damage power from the prim/secondary. As you say, not many assault sets can even slot it and where you can slot it you probably dont even want it there. 

 

To me it is strange that I can put assassins mark in dna siphon, which is a purely offensive proc in a defensive power, but I cant put the +dam ATO on my dominator into fireblast. 

[Coyote]

Heck, yeah. You can't even put the ATOs in some Dominator attacks that DO MEZZING like Psy Shockwave. That looks more like an oversight than deliberate design, though, given that Fissure does the same kind of mezzing and has access to the ATO sets.

[VV]

Okay, this is all great information! Looks like I will want to respec my Mind/Psi Dom for AV hunting. What Epic Pool do you recommend? I seem to end up going with Soul on a lot of my Doms for Dark Consumption and Soul Drain.

 

And yeah, the Dom ATOs are really annoying.

[Coyote]

Ice is good for Sleet.

Mu is good for an armor set (so you build for Ranged Defense and stack Resists with it) and a healing pet.

Soul is good for an armor set, and Soul Drain is good in general but not so much for AV soloing.

Mace is good for a -Resist power that takes Achilles Heel plus a pet.

[mbre2006]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:43 PM, Coyote said:

if you pick up Damage on the way there that's great, but it's rarely an option to put ahead of Recharge, Defense, or Regeneration

You can negate this by picking up Unleash potential which gives you recharge/regen/recov/ and def if you do decide to go for damage. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by mbre2006

[Dr Causality]

20 hours ago, VV said:

Okay, this is all great information! Looks like I will want to respec my Mind/Psi Dom for AV hunting. What Epic Pool do you recommend? I seem to end up going with Soul on a lot of my Doms for Dark Consumption and Soul Drain.

 

To expand on what @Coyote covered.    You're going to want some source(s) of -Resistance.    Ideally these will be continual and reliable.    You can increase your overall -Res if you have a long cooldown power that can slot the Achilles -Res proc, yielding capped proc chances.   That means for a Mind confused based AV hunter build, I'd really only look at Ice or Mace.

 

Ice Mastery

 

PROs

• Sleet is aoe and a very useful power outside of AV fights.
• HoarFrost is another heal and the HP buff it gives will supercharge the HP/s regen you get from DrainPsyche
• Frozen Armor - Some easy Smash/Leth Def.  But more itakes both Def and Res IOs, so can be a great slot Mule for the uniques you may want to slot.   (LoTG, ShieldWall 5% Res, Reactive Def +Scaling Res, +7.5% HP etc.)

CONs

• _Res from Sleet will not be continually up.    This version of Sleet has a long 90s cooldown, with a short 15s duration, so even on very high recharge builds you will have downtime where you are not getting -Res
• Rain powers like Sleet are not reliable for procs, so Sleet does not offer a useful power to slot the Achilles -Res proc
• No Epic Resistance shield for common S/L or energy damage

 

Mace Mastery

 

PROs

• Poison Ray - Offers -18.75% Res, but also due to single target and long cooldown will very reliably proc Achilles for another -20% and high recharge builds should have it's cooldown under 10s letting you keep the Achilles -20% up at the 90% proc chance cap.   This also means if you can spare slots it can further be turned into a dmg power by slotting chances dmg procs.   
• Scorpion Shield - Gives a place to slot another slot a LOTG for +Rech and easy Smash/Leth/Energy Def which can protect you the most common damage types in the game.
• Personal Force Shield - a handy one-slot wonder for LOTG to get the high recharge you need on Doms.
• Disruptor Blast - Isn't great DPS and does KB, but against full mobs it is a very reliable way to proc the ForceFeedback +Recharge bonus.   This can be handy to help have DrainPsyche up perma letting you smash head first through regular trash mobs on the way to the AV fights... 
• Toxic Tarantula pet  - I personally don't love this pet as I find it a bit fragile.  But this is no problem against AVs you have perma mezzed, so it will add DPS especially if you can give it the LadyGrey Dmg proc.   But overall pets you can't control are tougher to use on a build that centers around stealthy confusing it's way through mission content.    Still pets are an easy 4 slot source of +Rech bonus from the Recharge Intensive pet sets.   your high global recharge means it's easily possible to have the pet permanently up and having a power where you can slotting the pet uniques means they also buff your Lore Incarnate pets if you want a more pet centric playstyle...

CONs

• Poison Ray - Is only single target.  
• No Epic Resistance shield for the common S/L or Energy damage
• Nowhere to slot Res IO's, so if you want uniques you'll have to pick up a pool like Fighting or Sorcery.  (And you can't have Sorcery if you also want Force of Will...)

 

Worth mentioning the new 'Force of Will' Powerpool.    'Weaken Resolve' is basically a poor man's 'Poison Ray'.   Only -12.98% Res versus Poison Ray's -18.75%.  Only a 15s duration vs 30s.   A longer 30s vs 24s cooldown.    But it's just as good a way to get the Achillies proc -20% Res reliably up.    The longer base cooldown means you mean need to slot it for Recharge to have it up every 10s to keep applying the Achillies, but have plenty of room to slot Rech while still being at 90% proc chance cap.   That means it similarly can be turned into a dmg power with procs.      It's worth noting here that Achillies -Res does not stack, so not much value in having both Poison Ray and Weaken Resolve.   But if you wanted to go Ice Mastery for Sleet, then adding Weaken Resolve would give you almost all that you'd be missing out on from losing Poison Ray....

[oedipus_tex]

Sleet is weird and possibly bugged. I believe if an enemy leaves Sleet's radius before the power expires the stay debuffed. At least I think that's the behavior I've seen on the -RunSpeed side. It's not easy to test.

 

I believe this is a hold over from Freezing Rain where Storm players were encouraged to blow enemies out of the patch area.

 

Watch this video for a not perfect example.

 

 

 

 

[Coyote]

 

47 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Sleet is weird and possibly bugged. I believe if an enemy leaves Sleet's radius before the power expires the stay debuffed. At least I think that's the behavior I've seen on the -RunSpeed side.

 

AFAIK, Freezing Rain and duplicated powers based off it have a 30 second duration on their debuffs. So the total debuff duration is 45 seconds maximum if you can get the mob to start in the field and then be in it 15 second later, and 30 seconds minimum if the mobs leave immediately. At least, that was the stats of it when City of Data was still up to check powers.

[oedipus_tex]

9 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

 

AFAIK, Freezing Rain and duplicated powers based off it have a 30 second duration on their debuffs. So the total debuff duration is 45 seconds maximum if you can get the mob to start in the field and then be in it 15 second later, and 30 seconds minimum if the mobs leave immediately. At least, that was the stats of it when City of Data was still up to check powers.

 

 

It's something like that, but it looks like the debuff disappears if the enemy is inside the pet's radius when the pet expires. I could be wrong about that though. It's just how it looks like it's behaving in game.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

It's something like that, but it looks like the debuff disappears if the enemy is inside the pet's radius when the pet expires. I could be wrong about that though. It's just how it looks like it's behaving in game.

 

This is certainly an issue the power had on live at one point. Last time I checked vs a pylon I was getting right around 45 seconds of -res out of sleet. I haven't checked the dominator version though. 

[Microcosm]

Interesting thread. So I'm thinking dark would be a really good choice because it has extra pets to do damage against the AV for you while you are stacking confuse ( they should survive if the AV is perma mezzed...). Additionally, for non-AV class mobs you can pile on the -tohit and not have to really slot for defense. Anything I'm missing? I haven't done a Dom since live.