Does Sonic attack powers -res stack using different powers

[Heliopause]

Does Sonic attack powers -res stack with either multiple attacks by the same power or by attacks of different powers?  The in-game Help channel is giving contradictory answers --some say it does some say it doesn't.  I'd love a definitive answer for my Blaster.  Thanks

[GM Tock]

There's a post from yesterday in General Discussion that discusses Sonic debuffs. 

But no talk of -Res on mobs, just how much to get from a build.  ParagonWiki has this document, stating that " ...resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs."  Subsequent stacks will be less effective than the first one applied, so cascading resistance failures don't occur (like they do with Defense stats).

[siolfir]

11 hours ago, GM_Tahquitz said:

But no talk of -Res on mobs, just how much to get from a build.  ParagonWiki has this document, stating that " ...resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs."  Subsequent stacks will be less effective than the first one applied, so cascading resistance failures don't occur (like they do with Defense stats).

In this case where there are multiple people answering, there might be some misunderstanding... like the above quote, which implies that "Subsequent stacks will be less effective than the first one applied", which is somewhat misleading. They will apply the same amount of -resistance, but the calculated final damage will not be multiplicative if the target already has resistance.

 

For example, a mob has 50% smashing resistance and so will take 50 points from a 100 damage smashing attack. The same mob is hit with a 20% resistance debuff; their resistance turns it into a 10% resistance debuff, which is applied to the 50% to make a final of 40% resistance. Now, they take 60 damage from the 100 damage smashing attack, or 20% more than they did before.

 

So we hit them with a second 20% resistance debuff. This is resisted by the original (50%) resistance, so it will have the exact same 10% resistance debuff, which now puts them at 30% final resistance, and will take 70 damage from the 100 damage attack... so why is this "less effective?" Because that's only a 16.7% increase in the final damage, not a 20% increase.

 

As for Sonic Blast, it is my understanding that each different blast will not stack with itself, but the debuff from different blasts will stack together. So hitting something with Shout twice before the original debuff wears off will not cause your Blaster to stack the debuff, but hitting the same mob with Shout and Scream (and Howl) will. The fact that the same blast doesn't stack with itself might explain why you were getting two different answers, depending on how people understood the question.

 

As for Sonic Blast, each hit applies the resistance debuff, which can be confirmed using a Power Analyzer. This is unusual since most debuffs don't stack from the same source.

Edited February 10, 2020 by siolfir
correcting my own misconception

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

As for Sonic Blast, it is my understanding that each different blast will not stack with itself, but the debuff from different blasts will stack together

Actually they do stack from the same user's power. I've seen it using a power analyzer. So if you only cast Shriek over and over again, however many attacks can fit in the 5 second debuff duration will add up.

[Noyjitat]

Use power analyzer when in doubt about all the "expert" advice you get from people and discord. View the targets resistance and use a couple attacks on it and watch it decrease and you'll have your 100% verified information on this. I have not played a sonic before so I cannot 100% tell you until I test this myself.

[siolfir]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

Actually they do stack from the same user's power. I've seen it using a power analyzer. So if you only cast Shriek over and over again, however many attacks can fit in the 5 second debuff duration will add up.

Fair enough, I'll edit. 🙂 I was just going from the general rule of thumb that resistance debuffs don't stack from the same caster, and haven't played Sonic Blast since 2011.

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

Fair enough, I'll edit. 🙂 I was just going from the general rule of thumb that resistance debuffs don't stack from the same caster, and haven't played Sonic Blast since 2011.

It is a  topic that comes up many times as there are many rules to it. Basically,

1. All sonic attacks stack and pseudopet/patch debuffs stack from same caster as well as other casters (e.g. Sleet)
2. Other debuffs stack from other casters only (e.g. Sonic Siphon)
3. Procs of the same name don't stack (e.g. an enemy can only be affected by one Achilles' Heel).

For procs, once an enemy is affected by it, it can only be replaced by new applications. I say replace, instead of refresh, because of the purple patch. If a lower level player replaces the same-named proc of a higher level player, the effects will be diminished.

[Roderick]

10 hours ago, Bopper said:

Actually they do stack from the same user's power. I've seen it using a power analyzer. So if you only cast Shriek over and over again, however many attacks can fit in the 5 second debuff duration will add up.

There is probably a cap; it's very common for most things to be capped at five stacks of the same effect from the same caster (or sometimes just a hard five stacks, regardless of caster). As I recall, the Sonic Blast debuffs are fairly short duration, so you probably can't hit those caps, or if you can, only by deliberately attempting to do so.

[Bopper]

50 minutes ago, Roderick said:

There is probably a cap; it's very common for most things to be capped at five stacks of the same effect from the same caster (or sometimes just a hard five stacks, regardless of caster). As I recall, the Sonic Blast debuffs are fairly short duration, so you probably can't hit those caps, or if you can, only by deliberately attempting to do so.

Can you give me some examples of the five stack rule? I don't know of any. The closest I can think of is Incarnate Interface where a target can be effected by a maximum of 4 stacks (combined from all players).

[Roderick]

22 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Can you give me some examples of the five stack rule? I don't know of any. The closest I can think of is Incarnate Interface where a target can be effected by a maximum of 4 stacks (combined from all players).

The Rule of Five, where only five copies of a set bonus (which internally functions just like any other power) is the most obvious one. There are various defensive toggles that count nearby enemies (like Invincibility and Rise to the Challenge), and apply a stack of buff for each; I thought these capped at 5, but checking Mids says 10.

 

I could be mistaken about 5 being any kind of magic number, but most buffs do have a limit of some sort. "Doesn't stack", "Doesn't stack from same caster", Maximum number of stacks, Can only be cast on teammates (and thereby effectively limited to 7 stacks), etc.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Roderick said:

The Rule of Five, where only five copies of a set bonus (which internally functions just like any other power) is the most obvious one. There are various defensive toggles that count nearby enemies (like Invincibility and Rise to the Challenge), and apply a stack of buff for each; I thought these capped at 5, but checking Mids says 10.

 

I could be mistaken about 5 being any kind of magic number, but most buffs do have a limit of some sort. "Doesn't stack", "Doesn't stack from same caster", Maximum number of stacks, Can only be cast on teammates (and thereby effectively limited to 7 stacks), etc.

I see what you mean now. For debuffs and buffs, I dont believe there are any limits unless otherwise stated. As for toggles with limits, those limits are likely more of a max targets limit as opposed to a stack limit.