Blackfeather's Mind Control Updates v1

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Chirikiti said:

Lleave Mind alone. It's fine the way it is.

Says someone who obviously skipped Telekinesis and never thought about it ever again.

[SaddestGhost]

3 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Any thoughts on the implementations I proposed in the original post along with the one I made some time afterwards after some feedback?

The aspect that I really like is the proposed synergies with Levitate.  I think that addresses one of Mind's biggest problems: damage.  Of the two alterations to TK, I prefer the first though it I think the implementation of a pet controls might be a little clunky.  If vectored repel does become possible, I think a fairly simple solution would be a location based toggle.  That doesn't offer the same level of control, but I think it would be easier to implement and  for users to grasp. Drop it and all affected enemies are drawn to the center.  The second proposal has some problems with it.  If only immobilized/held enemies are repelled it would have the effect of moving lts. and minions, separating mobs (at least for controllers and outside of Domination).

[Chirikiti]

Totally true. Don't need it (telekinesis)

 

Also people skip powers in sets all time so I don't see the difference. For example my fire dom didn't take pets. Pets suck. So how 'bout we get rid of all pets in Dominator sets and make a power in there that's useful. Same sorta deal.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Chirikiti

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, SaddestGhost said:

The aspect that I really like is the proposed synergies with Levitate.  I think that addresses one of Mind's biggest problems: damage.  Of the two alterations to TK, I prefer the first though it I think the implementation of a pet controls might be a little clunky.  If vectored repel does become possible, I think a fairly simple solution would be a location based toggle.  That doesn't offer the same level of control, but I think it would be easier to implement and  for users to grasp. Drop it and all affected enemies are drawn to the center.  The second proposal has some problems with it.  If only immobilized/held enemies are repelled it would have the effect of moving lts. and minions, separating mobs (at least for controllers and outside of Domination).

As specified in the second proposal, there would still be an effect that'd help cluster in groups together - just that if an enemy is Held/Immobilised, they will be. That being said, Magnitude 3 Immobilises means that everything save for bosses and up would be immobilised (more reason for them to be the target instead).

 

As it is, I'm pretty sure that Telekinesis pretty much can only repel things that are Held anyhow due to its numbers at the moment; with this implementation, even if an AV is the target, at least they'll be moved, hypothetically, due to the immobilise magnitude being higher  - the focus of Telekinesis in my implementation being as a softer, positional control tool, with Levitate becoming AoE to add to that (damage/damage mitigation).

 

The reason why I decided to use Mastermind-esque controls was to maintain the use cases that Telekinesis currently has of moving enemies around, while also allowing it to function as an AoE toggle-based hold. I wouldn't be surprised if some people take plenty of enjoyment in the whole herding aspect of the power - I know I do at least, so I wouldn't want it to go away.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Redlynne]

49 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

As it is, I'm pretty sure that Telekinesis pretty much can only repel things that are Held anyhow due to its numbers at the moment

Nope.  Unless something has Repel protection, it's getting repelled.  PToD offers -50 Repel protection while triangles are up, but nothing while triangles are down.  For everything else, Repel protection is so rare that there's only a handful of $Targets other than AV/GM who have any at all.  This means that almost all Bosses are vulnerable to Repel.

[SaddestGhost]

3 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

The reason why I decided to use Mastermind-esque controls was to maintain the use cases that Telekinesis currently has of moving enemies around, while also allowing it to function as an AoE toggle-based hold. I wouldn't be surprised if some people take plenty of enjoyment in the whole herding aspect of the power - I know I do at least, so I wouldn't want it to go away.

I always found it frustrating to use TK, especially opposed to Hurricane, when herding.  If enemies are caught at different ranges in TK's path, changing your position has a greater change in the angle of repel for closer targets.  If the ends is to clump enemies together I'd much rather have a means to do so without fighting against the power itself.

[ZeeHero]

I agree with the OPs changes, and want them implemented asap. no need to nerf plant, buff what sucks, dont nerf what happens to be good.

[Blackfeather]

20 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Nope.  Unless something has Repel protection, it's getting repelled.  PToD offers -50 Repel protection while triangles are up, but nothing while triangles are down.  For everything else, Repel protection is so rare that there's only a handful of $Targets other than AV/GM who have any at all.  This means that almost all Bosses are vulnerable to Repel.

Good to know! I did mention that I'd still have the Repel effect in Telekinesis (or whatever equivalent effect that moves enemies around), so the main difference that I'd have would be to basically have the ability to move an AV/EB that's targeted by Telekinesis if they're immobilised. Add more of a positional control aspect to it, though not sure if that's a tad much, hahah.

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Good to know! I did mention that I'd still have the Repel effect in Telekinesis (or whatever equivalent effect that moves enemies around), so the main difference that I'd have would be to basically have the ability to move an AV/EB that's targeted by Telekinesis if they're immobilised. Add more of a positional control aspect to it, though not sure if that's a tad much, hahah.

If the Repel HAS TO BE THERE (I'm not convinced it does, but work with me here) ... then I'd want to have a way to conditionally engage and disengage the Repel component being added into Telekinesis.  The simplest solution to this particular problem that I've been able to conceptualize, while keeping Telekinesis (relatively) self-contained so it doesn't create dependencies with other powers, is to go the "Mystic Fly" route and have Telekinesis get broken out into two powers ... the "main" toggle power that does the AoE Hold function just like normal ... and a "sub" toggle power that enables the Repel function in the main power.

 

Essentially the way it would work is to key the Hold toggle to enable a Repel function if the sub-power toggle is affecting the caster of Telekinesis.

Toggle on both the Hold and the Repel enabling toggles and you have exactly the same functionality as Telekinesis has right now since the max targets nerf.

However, you would be able to toggle Hold both with and without Repel being active ... but the reverse would not be true (you couldn't Repel toggle without the Hold toggle being active) ... due to the dependencies.  All the programming would need to do is check to see if the Repel toggle is toggled on on the caster in order to enable the Repel function in the Hold toggle affecting the anchor $Target and all of the other $Targets within the AoE (up to the max targets limit).

 

Basic idea would be that the Hold toggle (without Repel) would cost 2.08 end/s and the added Repel enabling toggle would cost 1.04 end/s to run ... for a total of 3.12 end/s for running both (unchanged from current power) when both toggles are running.  That then gives the Player the option of when to "push" with Telekinesis and when to merely "hold" with Telekinesis so the power isn't a self-defeating (in the absence of useful terrain) power that scatters what it ought to gather.

 

 

 

All that said ... I honestly think that a superior implementation to that would be to do the "fission" of Hold and Repel functions as above, but then rather than keeping the Repel function on a sub-toggle ... replace it with a "Wormhole-lite" Click power that will Teleport Foe all $Targets within the AoE of the Telekinesis Hold toggle and deposit them at the location of the anchor of the Telekinesis Hold toggle.  This would be one way to "cluster" everything within the AoE onto the location of the anchor $Target without needing to resort to Knock* or Repel functionality.  It would be a way to use already Known Working Tech™ to achieve the desired tactical repositioning behavior at the lowest risk from a technical standpoint.

 

Just remember the three Ts ...

Telepathy

Telekinesis

Teleport

[Blackfeather]

On 4/6/2020 at 3:51 PM, SaddestGhost said:

I always found it frustrating to use TK, especially opposed to Hurricane, when herding.  If enemies are caught at different ranges in TK's path, changing your position has a greater change in the angle of repel for closer targets.  If the ends is to clump enemies together I'd much rather have a means to do so without fighting against the power itself.

Oh of course - when I refer to Repel, I don't mean it functioning as an "effect that pushes the enemy away in regards to where the character is", I just use it as a catch all phrase for "being able to arbitrarily move an enemy around using a specific system (with the Mastermind pet controls as the main example)", you know? Hence the whole controllable Telekinesis.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Blackfeather]

On 4/6/2020 at 4:36 PM, ZeeHero said:

I agree with the OPs changes, and want them implemented asap. no need to nerf plant, buff what sucks, dont nerf what happens to be good.

Well thanks! There's been different proposed implementations for Mind Control, such as @Redlynne proposals (I'll get a response up to you, but I want to make it an appropriately long response! 😅) - did you find anything that you preferred there?

[SaddestGhost]

Looking at some of the March numbers on Controllers and Dominators reinforces some of my thinking on the matter of Mind Control.  At level 50 Mind is in last place for controllers, but in second place for Dominators.  Why?  Trollers rely on their primary for damage; doms do not.  Struggling with containment, a much longer recharge on Terrify vs. AoE immobilizes, and no pets contributing to damage all contribute to the issue.  While Mass Confusion, in theory, helps with the damage contribution its role in doing so is in conflict with leveraging Terrify for damage.  (Plant doesn't suffer the same problem.)

 

So what if the cool down and duration of Terrify were reduce?  I would propose a recharge of 15 seconds with a duration of of 10 seconds, close to its current recharge/duration ratio.  Naturally damage and endurance cost could also be altered.  From my understanding there is a formula that dictates the ratio between damage, endurance, and recharge.  However, Terrify's current damage/end ratio (1.47 damage/end) is only slightly better than Roots (1.41 damage/end.)  Even with this alteration in place Mind would lag a bit behind due to unreliable containment.  This, however, would come at a slight disadvantage to Dominators who would need to cast Terrify more often to maintain it.

 

(Side note: What the hell, Plant?  An endurance discount on its AoE immobilize, Seeds with a better up-time/duration rate than any other AoE mez, then let's throw Creepers in there for a bonus. )

 

On 4/6/2020 at 10:49 PM, Redlynne said:

If the Repel HAS TO BE THERE (I'm not convinced it does, but work with me here) ... then I'd want to have a way to conditionally engage and disengage the Repel component being added into Telekinesis.  The simplest solution to this particular problem that I've been able to conceptualize, while keeping Telekinesis (relatively) self-contained so it doesn't create dependencies with other powers, is to go the "Mystic Fly" route and have Telekinesis get broken out into two powers ... the "main" toggle power that does the AoE Hold function just like normal ... and a "sub" toggle power that enables the Repel function in the main power.

 

Essentially the way it would work is to key the Hold toggle to enable a Repel function if the sub-power toggle is affecting the caster of Telekinesis.

Toggle on both the Hold and the Repel enabling toggles and you have exactly the same functionality as Telekinesis has right now since the max targets nerf.

However, you would be able to toggle Hold both with and without Repel being active ... but the reverse would not be true (you couldn't Repel toggle without the Hold toggle being active) ... due to the dependencies.  All the programming would need to do is check to see if the Repel toggle is toggled on on the caster in order to enable the Repel function in the Hold toggle affecting the anchor $Target and all of the other $Targets within the AoE (up to the max targets limit).

 

Basic idea would be that the Hold toggle (without Repel) would cost 2.08 end/s and the added Repel enabling toggle would cost 1.04 end/s to run ... for a total of 3.12 end/s for running both (unchanged from current power) when both toggles are running.  That then gives the Player the option of when to "push" with Telekinesis and when to merely "hold" with Telekinesis so the power isn't a self-defeating (in the absence of useful terrain) power that scatters what it ought to gather.

I think this implementation would be the most likely.  The tech exists, it doesn't alter the function of the power, and it addresses some of the endurance issue.  Simply being able to pause the Repel effect while you reposition your character would also dramatically improve the ease of use, requiring less of the constant repositioning that it takes now. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by SaddestGhost
Grammar

[Artex4232]

I have never played a Dominator, and it seems to me in reading the musings of my fellow citizens of Paragon and the Isles, that the Dominators are happy with the way Mind Control works for them. So what if we start there, what makes Mind Control so much more groovy for their play or that toon class? Maybe its not that, maybe is solo vs. group, I am merely suggesting we zoom out, look at what is working well so much that those folks will advocate strongly for it to stay the same. Focus on the bright spots so to speak, then from there see if we can find a way to have some of that success propagate to the Controller side of the equation.

 

Thanks

[SaddestGhost]

2 hours ago, Artex4232 said:

I have never played a Dominator, and it seems to me in reading the musings of my fellow citizens of Paragon and the Isles, that the Dominators are happy with the way Mind Control works for them. So what if we start there, what makes Mind Control so much more groovy for their play or that toon class? Maybe its not that, maybe is solo vs. group, I am merely suggesting we zoom out, look at what is working well so much that those folks will advocate strongly for it to stay the same. Focus on the bright spots so to speak, then from there see if we can find a way to have some of that success propagate to the Controller side of the equation.

 

Thanks

As I briefly mentioned, it comes down to what each AT uses the primary for.  Controllers use their primary for damage and control; Dominators, with an entire secondary to provide their damage, use it for control.   That creates some key differences in how they utilize and slot different powers.  For instance, a dominator, with better options for damage per endurance in their secondary, reasonably only casts their AoE immobilize while mobs are free to move.   Controllers, on the other hand, often cast their AoE immobilize to contribute to damage.   So the damage disparities between control sets is a much greater factor for a controller than it is a dominator.  (Sets that debuff resistance widen that gap for between control primaries.)

 

As for why Dominators are more satisfied with Mind, by virtue of the increased magnitude and duration of controls under Domination, they're simply better at controls.  Dominators can rely on those controls affecting bosses.  So when you need to shut down those incoming adds Mass Hypnosis for a Dominator will stop the bosses; a controller might stop them (with the increased 50% chance to overpower).  Need to put an elite boss in time out?  Dominators can do it with Mesmerize.  Controllers need to stack Mesmerize in with Mass Hypnosis.  Trying to hold an AV, Dominate > TK > Dominate > Total Domination builds 24 mag in less than 10 seconds.   Mind is in a peculiar position in that 8 of its 9 powers benefits from Domination.  Earth, by contrast, doesn't benefit from Domination on Volcanic Gasses, Earthquake, Quicksand, or Animated Stone.

 

I suppose one take away from that is Containment needs to be part of the solution.  If, as Redlynne proposed, Mind triggered it on Feared opponents it would buff Controllers without affecting Dominator performance.

Edited April 9, 2020 by SaddestGhost

[Blackfeather]

Alright, I've got a bit of time now - I'll give a crack at responding at your proposal, Red!

On 4/7/2020 at 12:49 PM, Redlynne said:

If the Repel HAS TO BE THERE (I'm not convinced it does, but work with me here) ... then I'd want to have a way to conditionally engage and disengage the Repel component being added into Telekinesis.  The simplest solution to this particular problem that I've been able to conceptualize, while keeping Telekinesis (relatively) self-contained so it doesn't create dependencies with other powers, is to go the "Mystic Fly" route and have Telekinesis get broken out into two powers ... the "main" toggle power that does the AoE Hold function just like normal ... and a "sub" toggle power that enables the Repel function in the main power.

Personally I think that any reworks that Telekinesis ends up getting should have some means of moving enemies around. It needn't be Repel (that is to say, the status effect which pushes enemies away from the user), but having an effect that can continuously reposition enemies seems integral to the power's identity. I also think that being able to push enemies around at will is very fun to do - especially so if it were more controllable. And of course, the fact that it's already there is reason enough, personally.

 

While being able to turn the effects of Repel on and off is a nice start, I think that we can do better than that - hence my proposal of making it a controllable effect akin to a Mastermind's pet controls. Being able to move enemies arbitrarily across the battlefield would be something fun and unique to Mind Control; it fits in nicely with the idea and feel of Telekinesis, in my view. They'd be able to stay suspended in mid-air as per your suggestion, but also do plenty of other things, such as being able to follow you around, vacuum up a series of scattered enemies with little fuss, or be shoved into the corner like how Telekinesis functions now.

 

Plus, Telekinesis-mook walkies with the Follow command! What's not to love? 😈

On 4/7/2020 at 12:49 PM, Redlynne said:

All that said ... I honestly think that a superior implementation to that would be to do the "fission" of Hold and Repel functions as above, but then rather than keeping the Repel function on a sub-toggle ... replace it with a "Wormhole-lite" Click power that will Teleport Foe all $Targets within the AoE of the Telekinesis Hold toggle and deposit them at the location of the anchor of the Telekinesis Hold toggle.  This would be one way to "cluster" everything within the AoE onto the location of the anchor $Target without needing to resort to Knock* or Repel functionality.  It would be a way to use already Known Working Tech™ to achieve the desired tactical repositioning behavior at the lowest risk from a technical standpoint.

Hence my somewhat lukewarm response to this proposal - Wormhole teleporting enemies makes sense for Gravity Control, and it's a unique and fun power for it. I think Telekinesis ought to do its own thing in its own style; move enemies by levitating around instead of flash-speeding them. Certainly, pausing/resuming the Repel effect of Telekinesis works okay in that regard. But omnidirectional Mastermind-lite control of the effect would be even better, IMO.

 

While it's good to discuss the known working tech to implement different effects, I think it's worth it to pursue alternatives that'll make the powers feel even more fun and thematic to play as well as being more potent. Unless the devs outright say "no, we're not interested in doing this" or "no, that's impossible", I think it's worth a shot.

On 4/7/2020 at 12:49 PM, Redlynne said:

Basic idea would be that the Hold toggle (without Repel) would cost 2.08 end/s and the added Repel enabling toggle would cost 1.04 end/s to run ... for a total of 3.12 end/s for running both (unchanged from current power) when both toggles are running.  That then gives the Player the option of when to "push" with Telekinesis and when to merely "hold" with Telekinesis so the power isn't a self-defeating (in the absence of useful terrain) power that scatters what it ought to gather.

I've been thinking a little bit about how endurance reductions might work for Telekinesis. Why not have it scale by the amount of enemies it traps, up to the original amount of 3.12 for 16 enemies? I'm not certain of the baseline (i.e. 1 enemy) amount, but I imagine it'd be somewhere a bit more manageable, while not trivially cheap to keep up all the time. I'm putting down a tentative 0.83 (same as Choking Cloud/Entangling Aura), plus 0.143125 for each enemy perhaps?

 

Combined with my suggestion for making Levitate affect all enemies when used on the original target of Telekinesis (thus resulting in more enemies being defeated at once), it'd leave its endurance usage lower in many cases.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Redlynne]

10 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

While being able to turn the effects of Repel on and off is a nice start, I think that we can do better than that - hence my proposal of making it a controllable effect akin to a Mastermind's pet controls.

To put it politely, Mastermind stance dance controls are NOT going to be happening for Telekinesis.

For one thing, $Targets affected by Telekinesis are HOSTILE ... not allied (and happy to do whatever you say).  On top of that, they are HELD ... meaning no attack actions and no movement control (of their own).  You're just piling wishful thinking on top of wishful thinking on top of wishful thinking by diving down this rabbit hole.

 

The reason for the Repel effect is because Telekinesis is a toggle, meaning that the Repel keeps getting automatically reapplied (uncontrollably) so as to push stuff away (which is the self-defeating aspect of the power).  It was bad design then and it's still bad design now.  It's an anchor power that tries to push $Targets AWAY FROM the anchor, which is inherently self-defeating BY DESIGN.

 

The fix for that is to either make the anchor DRAW $Targets to the anchor (so cluster instead of spread) ... OR ... to make it so the Repel factor is controllable (by allowing it to be turned on and off at will).  Problem solved.

21 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Hence my somewhat lukewarm response to this proposal - Wormhole teleporting enemies makes sense for Gravity Control, and it's a unique and fun power for it. I think Telekinesis ought to do its own thing in its own style; move enemies by levitating around instead of flash-speeding them.

There's a big difference between being able to teleport foes through walls and around corners ... and being able to move them some 10-15 ft from around an anchor TO that anchor.  The means to so it is Teleportation, but the distance involved is really quite minimal (about double melee range).  A short range teleport of that short of a range might as well be a Knockabout/Repel effect that does the necessary movement with minimal (game mechanical) fuss and muss.  We're talking like a 10 ft Teleport here to cluster up $Targets that are already affected by Telekinesis ... not something that spews them across the room (or into different rooms) like Wormhole does.

 

That means THIS ...

 

Not THIS ...

[SaddestGhost]

2 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

This is fair criticism. MC should probably be compared to tier nine pet powers(and their general capabilities); this would justify greater uptime (availability) and would require a lower duration in exchange. Possibly consider an AoE or target reduction. As it stands its available every two to three engagements.

In my opinion (as I detailed in the thread on the controller boards), it is a valid comparison.  There are a number of factors to consider that would prevent Mass Confusion from working as well as Seeds.  There are synergies within Plant that work with Seeds and conflicts in Mind that would prevent it from rising to that level, but it basically boils down to a) lack of containment, b) Terrify slows down confusion damage, and c) Roots' above average damage synergizes with Seeds.  Synaptic Overload, despite its peculiarities as a chain power, is a probably a better model of how MC would behave on the same cool down with Static Field simulating the effects of Terrify.

 

While I understand Vanden's assertion, I think the concern is a bit excessive.  Looking back at my past builds, I see Flashfire, Stalagmites, Wormhole, etc. all with longer duration than cool downs.   On dominators, it's even possible to sustain a mag 6 stun for as long as it takes Wormhole to recharge. The whole fear of City of Statues from the Jack Emmert era never came to be even after inventions helped ease the beating that AoE controls took.  If anything we're living in the age of Nukes where controls contribute even less.

Edited April 9, 2020 by SaddestGhost
Grammar

[Redlynne]

Cross-posting because it bears repeating here in the context of this thread.

 

6 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Mass Confusion suffers from being repeatedly hit by the One Size Fits All™ nerfbat from every direction possible.  It's either unavailable most of the time or isn't being used most of the time.  When it is used, it's extremely rare for the full duration of Mass Confusion to be in any way relevant since 10-16 $Targets will tend to defeat each other in a mass brawl relatively quickly, trimming their own numbers down and "wasting" a significant portion of the available duration (yet the full duration gets held against the power's uptime anyway, because ... spreadsheet math).

 

And think of it this way ... when the AoE Control nerf landed with Issue 5 ... none of the other Controller Tier 9 powers got nerfed.  ONLY Mind Control took it in the Tier 9, reducing the power to 1/4 of what it had been (double recharge, half duration) ... because, One Size Fits All™ ... and it's easier than Thinking™.

 

Mind Control just go brutalized by the changes in Issue 5, and the powerset has never recovered.

Other powersets had their AoE Immobilize and AoE Hold powers nerfed.

Mind Control had their AoE Sleep, Toggle Hold, AoE Hold, Cone Terrorize AND AoE Confuse powers nerfed ... HARD.  That's the majority of the powerset!

And why did that happen?

Because, One Size Fits All™ ... since it was easier than Thinking™ for the devs and Cryptic Studios at the time (and later Paragon Studios).

 

I remember what Mind Control was like to play before and after Issue 5 was released.

Before Issue 5, Mind Control was a STRONG Control powerset.  It locked stuff down harder than any other Control powerset.

After Issue 5 was released ... Mind Control barely rated as a Defender with Mez as the side effects on their powers.  It was whiplash inducing.

 

Mind Control got shoved into the ditch and had weights thrown on it to prevent it from being able to get out of the rut it was thrown into.  Some of us are still waiting for the necessary dev attention to (and I quote) ... "Put right what once went wrong..."

 

Yes I'm still cross about it after all these years ... why do you ask?

[Blackfeather]

8 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

To put it politely, Mastermind stance dance controls are NOT going to be happening for Telekinesis.

For one thing, $Targets affected by Telekinesis are HOSTILE ... not allied (and happy to do whatever you say).  On top of that, they are HELD ... meaning no attack actions and no movement control (of their own).  You're just piling wishful thinking on top of wishful thinking on top of wishful thinking by diving down this rabbit hole.

 

The reason for the Repel effect is because Telekinesis is a toggle, meaning that the Repel keeps getting automatically reapplied (uncontrollably) so as to push stuff away (which is the self-defeating aspect of the power).  It was bad design then and it's still bad design now.  It's an anchor power that tries to push $Targets AWAY FROM the anchor, which is inherently self-defeating BY DESIGN.

 

The fix for that is to either make the anchor DRAW $Targets to the anchor (so cluster instead of spread) ... OR ... to make it so the Repel factor is controllable (by allowing it to be turned on and off at will).  Problem solved.

I understand that you're averse to the suggestion due to seeing it as impossible, but I'd prefer a dev to chime in before dismissing the notion as wishful thinking.

 

Personally while your suggestion of an on/off switch for Telekinesis' repel effect is a nice compromise, and certainly an improvement to its current situation, I think the power has the potential to so much more than that, which is why I made Telekinesis the way it was in my original proposal.

 

Doesn't it sound thematic and powerful to be able to move enemies around a room with telekinetic powers, directing the group to go to one place, then the next, or even to follow along behind you? It'd be a power unique to Mind Control alone, and an awesome way of reshaping the battlefield that only Gravity Control can compete with. I acknowledge your enthusiasm's tempered with your perceptions of what is possible...but as said before: unless a dev says "that's impossible" or "we're not interested in doing that", I think it's worth a shot, especially if it'd be amazing to see and do.

 

I don't touch the game code - I think I've made that quite clear. The standard coding rant certainly applies here. And of course, you are quite free to dismiss this suggestion as wishful thinking, though I will be disappointed if you see it that way. But I think that while feasibility as a factor should be considered, examining what our suggestions bring to the table takes precedence. Certainly, some suggestions that people propose may be harder to implement than others. But that doesn't mean that they don't have merit, or should be dismissed solely for that reason.

 

At the end of the day, it's up to the devs to decide what they want to implement - all we can do is make suggestions based on what we think might be cool, powerful, fun, or yes, even feasible. Perhaps they might end up going for the options that you're proposing, or mine, or something different entirely. But if we can inspire the Homecoming team into creating something cool, thematic, and powerful? Well, I think that's a job well done.

 

And personally speaking I think being able to freely move a group of enemies around the battlefield is much more flexible and plain old fun than just making them stop and start moving them away from you.

[ZeeHero]

On 4/7/2020 at 6:17 PM, Blackfeather said:

Well thanks! There's been different proposed implementations for Mind Control, such as @Redlynne proposals (I'll get a response up to you, but I want to make it an appropriately long response! 😅) - did you find anything that you preferred there?

Mainly, the first fix should be to reduce the cooldown on mass confuse to 2 minutes, or 2.5 minutes tops. also add damage to more of the MC CC abilities so Mind Control on trollers isnt so awful.

[Blackfeather]

6 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

Mainly, the first fix should be to reduce the cooldown on mass confuse to 2 minutes, or 2.5 minutes tops. also add damage to more of the MC CC abilities so Mind Control on trollers isnt so awful.

Oh for sure - some number passes as mentioned in the OP could do a good amount. Levitate could certainly do with an increase in damage to match Gravity Control's reworked Lift, as could Terrify's damage with the amount of endurance it costs at the very least.

 

I'm definitely hoping that the devs notice the proposed idea of making Levitate activate on all targets affected by Telekinesis when used against the target of Telekinesis (i.e. a pseudo Mass Levitate); it'd certainly provide Mind Control with more ways of dealing damage, among the other suggestions I brought up.

[Blackfeather]

On 4/9/2020 at 11:27 AM, SaddestGhost said:

I suppose one take away from that is Containment needs to be part of the solution.  If, as Redlynne proposed, Mind triggered it on Feared opponents it would buff Controllers without affecting Dominator performance.

What did you think of the Dizzied! mechanic from my original post? That is, causing enemies woken up by Levitate/Terrify when they're put to sleep by Mass Hypnosis/Mesmerize to wake up disoriented (mag 3 stun), with the duration of the stun based on a fraction of the remaining time of the sleep effect?

 

Basically, the Dizzied! mechanic was thought up with two things in mind: providing Mind Controllers with more opportunities for Containment, and dynamically strengthening the effects of their Sleep powers in groups that seldom require them - fast, explosive teams with lots of damage that easily wake enemies up without meaning to. It also lends itself nicely to some fun combinations, taking into consideration my other proposals. For example:

• Telekinesis > Mass Hypnosis > Levitate
  • Group a bunch of enemies together, before putting them to sleep
  • Levitate lifts all enemies affected by Telekinesis into the air, dealing Containment damage
  • Enemies are left stunned by the Dizzied! mechanic for a fraction of the Sleep duration
• Mass Hypnosis > Terrify
  • Put a group of enemies to sleep, then jolt them awake with overwhelming Fear, dealing Containment damage
  • The Dizzied! mechanic kicks in, leaving them awake but disoriented
• Mesmerize > Levitate
  • Basic one-two designed to disorient a single opponent

[Redlynne]

12 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

What did you think of the Dizzied! mechanic from my original post? That is, causing enemies woken up by Levitate/Terrify when they're put to sleep by Mass Hypnosis/Mesmerize to wake up disoriented (mag 3 stun), with the duration of the stun based on a fraction of the remaining time of the sleep effect?

I think it's fine in a vacuum.

 

However, given the current state of the game (and its legacy codebase), implementation of the idea would require NEW TECH be developed for the game engine.  New Tech is both expensive (in terms of man-hours to produce, develop, test and validate) and also risky (do other things break because of it) ... which are factors that cannot and should not be blithely and/or glibly overlooked, let alone hand waved away as being non-issues.

 

As pie in the sky wishful thinking ... it's fine.

As a reasonable expectation of what CAN (let alone SHOULD) be done ... it's still pie in the sky wishful thinking.

 

 

 

Or as I like to say ... a bird in the hand is safer than the one overhead.

[Blackfeather]

On 4/12/2020 at 12:39 AM, Redlynne said:

I think it's fine in a vacuum.

 

However, given the current state of the game (and its legacy codebase), implementation of the idea would require NEW TECH be developed for the game engine.  New Tech is both expensive (in terms of man-hours to produce, develop, test and validate) and also risky (do other things break because of it) ... which are factors that cannot and should not be blithely and/or glibly overlooked, let alone hand waved away as being non-issues.

 

As pie in the sky wishful thinking ... it's fine.

As a reasonable expectation of what CAN (let alone SHOULD) be done ... it's still pie in the sky wishful thinking.

 

Or as I like to say ... a bird in the hand is safer than the one overhead.

I don't believe anybody here disagrees that implementing new things takes more time and effort than rehashing or reusing old things, nor do people deny that these are factors to consider before implementing them. Nobody is "hand waving" these factors away as non-issues.

 

I don't even disagree that all else equal, things that take more work will be less likely to be done than things that take less work - most people prefer driving cars over say, riding a bike for instance. That doesn't make suggestions that take more work to execute "wishful thinking".

 

As such, I don't understand your assertion that just because the Dizzied! mechanic implements something new that it is not a reasonable expectation. The devs have proven themselves capable of developing new tech and modifying the game after all. Recent examples such as asymmetrical costumes along with the new chaining technology implemented in Electrical Affinity come to mind.

 

Were they to put in an official statement of "no, we want to do something else", or "no, this is impossible", or "no, this is too much work" then of course it would be silly to suggest something that opposes those statements. But the devs haven't done this. All we can really do is propose suggestions that we personally think are appealing, and ideally appealing to others.

 

If you're not a fan of the proposed Dizzied! mechanic because it'd take more work than other changes to implement, or you think that other mechanics would serve Mind Control better, that's perfectly fine. But I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss this proposal (and by extension, my other proposals to Mind Control of a similar nature) as "wishful thinking" just because you personally don't think it can be done, or for implementing more new things than other suggestions.

[ZekeStenzland]

A simpler, no new tech implementation of Dizzied might be just to add an unenhanceable 15sec mag 3 disorient to mesmerize and mass hypnosis. That way, if mobs get woken up immediately, there’s still some benefit, but if they’ve been asleep for a bit, you’ve probably gotten most of the value out of the sleep anyway. 
 

Doesnt address the other issues of Mind a Control, but does make the sleeps more relevant on teams.