ATO procs: Bring non Scrapper/Stalkers up to par

[Infinitum]

25 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

That, of course, isn't an option for Mind and Illusion.

What about Blind is it based solely off one target or the ones that could receive the splash, and telekenisis?

 

Im just asking as i am unfamiliar with how those could function.

 

I have it slotted currently in flash in my Ill Rad troller, but i never really thought about slotting it in blind.

 

lastly i thought it was a mag 2 stun that stacks.

[Infinitum]

59 minutes ago, ApatheticWizard said:

The tanker Res proc does fit well, and the absorb shield is pretty handy if you slot it in a consistently proccing power (Such as Crushing Uppercut in StJ since you hold to use it with combo-points). But, there is the issue that the +Res proc can be kind of pointless depending on the Primary set being used. I think there should be a +Defense proc to go along with it for the sets that can't utilize the +Res.

On Controllers Energy Font just kind of...flails around and aggros extra mobs and/or dies unless you're using it in conjunction with your big recharge controls, which cuts into how often you can really use them. The only power I've consistently had more than 2 Fonts out at a time(The bare minimum before they actually become useful) with is Arctic Air, which is the only saving grace to the proc in my testing and experience. A better solution would be to instead of summoning a pet with the durability of tissue paper is to add something to the effect of Contaminate from Radiation Melee, anchoring the effects of the Font on a target that persists like toggle-debuffs on corpses in case the proc occurs on something like a minion, rather than an uncontrolled pet.

Chain fences is what i have noticed their use from most, i have had 5 up at once, and they stack the stun so well they hang around for the duration.  I think that may be the key is to have them slotted in an AOE fast recharging power.

[SaddestGhost]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

What about Blind is it based solely off one target or the ones that could receive the splash, and telekenisis?

 

Im just asking as i am unfamiliar with how those could function.

 

I have it slotted currently in flash in my Ill Rad troller, but i never really thought about slotting it in blind.

 

lastly i thought it was a mag 2 stun that stacks.

You are correct.  It is a mag 2 stun, enough to overcome a minion's mez protection on its own. 

 

I'm unsure how it behaves in Blind, but I know the sleep in Blind has a very small radius.  It's a pretty rare thing to see the sleep itself given how closely packed enemies need to be.  As for TK, it can't even be slotted there.

Edited April 26, 2020 by SaddestGhost

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

You are correct.  It is a mag 2 stun, enough to overcome a minion's mez protection on its own

How do stacking stuns behave? does it increase magnitude?

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

That in and of itself doesn't mean the other ones aren't working as intended, just aren't as noticeable with the games current corralled focus.

I call it the "meta-gaming singularity".

 

It pushes balance to aim for specific meta-game favored effects, in both new sets and old, so that all sets eventually perform the same but with different visual effects.  Of course, that conclusion is the extreme and likely something we won't ever get to but it's the overarching goals of such changes: +rech, +dmg, extra damage, -res and more targets.  Also +def if you haven't reached the cap already.  That is what will be requested for every set, every inherent and every IO set and why you won't hear requests for +range, +resistance to debuff/mez, +regen, +acc, -def, -ToHit, etc etc.

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Other ATO's for other ATs give a +Heal/+End/+Absorb/Etc proc which can be found in other uniques. Others get a damage proc which while nice, is nowhere near as game-changing as refreshing build up or a bigger base crit chance on ALL attacks. What makles these stand out is not simply they do damage, but they support the AT's game plan in a unique way.

One reason why Stalker has such a fitting set of ATOs is because the AT itself is rather uniform.  Every set has Hide, Assassin's [Attack], Build Up and Placate.  It's much easier to set up for them to have an effect that affects one of those powers.  Would be great if Blaster's ATO was a "get +10 mez protection for 15sec when you use Aim and a chance to instantly recharge Aim if mezzed" but not every set gets Aim or an Aim equivalent.

 

Scrapper's ATO is as bland as milk toast.  It's only good because the AT itself is rather good.  If it was just damage procs on every attack instead of +crit chance, it wouldn't really be that different.

 

If I were changing the ATOs, I'd probably aim for the inherent too but that wouldn't always be beneficial overall to every build:

 

Defender - Extending the END discount to solo and the +dmg to teams could be an option

Tanker - +range special for 5sec after using Taunt (basically a flat increase the the Gauntlet effect for a short time) but an increase to the cooldown of Taunt

Controller - a small chance for containment damage on top of their regular damage (that stacks with Containment damage)

Dominator - chance for double mag mez in the power it's slotted in

 

...but some inherents are just too passive to actually have any meaningful effect and the powers spread are not uniform to be balanced to affect all sets evenly.

[nihilii]

9 hours ago, ApatheticWizard said:

The issue is you're cheesing yourself out of actual damage trying to play upkeep the damage buff by having to spamming your ST hold to maintain that actual meaningful percent-damage increase.

If you're Plant or something, sure, which is why animation times for ST holds between powersets should be looked at, as well as which attacks can accept Dom ATOs (all should, IMHO).

 

On something like a Fire/Fire Dom, procced out Char spam enables 500+ DPS attack chains.

[SaddestGhost]

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

How do stacking stuns behave? does it increase magnitude?

Mez magnitudes are additive in regards to magnitude.  All mobs have some inherent level of mez protection (minions = 1, lieutenants =2, bosses =3, elite bosses = 4, AVs = 3/6 + 50 when purple triangles are up).   As long as their mez protection is 0 or greater they can continue to act freely. So take a boss mob, for example, and hit it with Flashfire with a duration of 20 seconds.  That reduces its mez protection to 0 for those 20 seconds (assuming even level), so it remains active.  If an Energy Orb swoops in during that time and hits it with a mag 2 Stun for 5 seconds, the boss will be stunned for those 5 seconds because its total stun protection is reduced to -2. 

 

People have often complained because of the binary nature of this, especially in regards to AVs.  If you can reliably stack 50 magnitude hold against an AV it means nothing while the Purple triangles are up.  54 is the magic number in most cases.

 

As for Energy Orb, it's a bit hard to quantify how long its stun lasts.  Using the proc in Confuse against a single target and monitoring the target's stun protection with a power analyzer, I've seen the stun last as little as 5 seconds and as much as 10 seconds.  Damage wise I can see that even two Energy Orbs sitting on an even con minion are hardly making a dent damage-wise.

[tidge]

19 hours ago, parabola said:

Doesn't energy font draw aggro? I haven't played with it much but I thought it did unless I was imagining things. My biggest issue with both the orbs is they are concept limiting. I have one controller that the font fits perfectly but the others not so much. If all pseudopets and other proc effects could be customised that would be great.

I think people have the wrong idea that Controller and Dominator procs are supposed to be a Lore-like pet that does a lot more than it does. Dominators and Controllers do have access to pets from Primary/Secondary power sets... the specific complaint about these two ATO procs feel a little bit too much like a spoiled child complaining that they didn't get a better car for their 16th birthday.

 

Keep in mind that ATO are meant to be used over the life of a character and that are not 'rewards' for achieving level 50.

 

I slotted the Dominator's Fiery Orb as early as possible. It collects aggro at a valuable clip that would otherwise go against the Dom, and serves a very useful purpose. My only complaint about Fiery Orb proc is also my complaint against the Winter set procs: sometimes the visual effect doesn't match my character concept.

 

The Energy Font proc is one I slotted later in a Controller build. Over the life of that character I observed the font taking less damage, but I suspect that is because I already had strong mass controls by the time I slotted it. I can easily believe it is contributing to the magnitude of my controls.

 

I have bigger issues with Tanker and Mastermind ATOs (could be ignorance, and I am willing to be educated):

 

Masterminds: The options for slotting these are rather limited in a Mastermind build. I'm not sure what the fix is for these.

 

Tankers: I'm disappointed that (because of the damage-power focus of ATO) one of the two ATO isn't specifically for the Primary. I understand that the primaries are different enough that it would be hard to figure out a way that best balanced Resist/Defense/Absorb. I suppose the tanker ATOs are also better suited for leveling builds and not end-game builds.

 

I'm perfectly happy with procs for the Soldiers of Arachnos, as I suspect most veteran VEAT players are. A %Global damage proc will always be seen as gravy, and the %Fear effect is a nice control option for multiple playstyles (over the entire life of the VEAT).

[Indystruck]

9 hours ago, Naraka said:

I call it the "meta-gaming singularity".

 

It pushes balance to aim for specific meta-game favored effects, in both new sets and old, so that all sets eventually perform the same but with different visual effects.  Of course, that conclusion is the extreme and likely something we won't ever get to but it's the overarching goals of such changes: +rech, +dmg, extra damage, -res and more targets.  Also +def if you haven't reached the cap already.  That is what will be requested for every set, every inherent and every IO set and why you won't hear requests for +range, +resistance to debuff/mez, +regen, +acc, -def, -ToHit, etc etc.

Odd conclusion to reach consider I had said that the +range on sentinels ATO set was a good pick. 

[SaddestGhost]

Energy Font demonstrably does very little. Take it for spin time against some lower rank enemies and spam the AoE immobilize with Energy Font.  Watch how many of the enemies are actually stunned.  Against a spawn of about 10 Rikti in RWZ, I was spawning about two orbs at a time and they were able to control two minions.  Against something -15 to my level I would expect they could keep even those minions locked down, but they can't.  The stun was sporadic.  Want to see how poor they are for damage?  Slot it in Confuse, stand right next to your target and spawn them.  They barely nibble at even conning minions.

 

If their purpose isn't control or damage, I guess it could be to take aggro.  But spawning on top of the owner before moving in on the mobs is a poor way to go about that.  If they spawned at the target, they might actually have a use in Sleep powers by taking a little alpha strike when they wake up mobs.

[Indystruck]

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 the specific complaint about these two ATO procs feel a little bit too much like a spoiled child complaining that they didn't get a better car for their 16th birthday.

 

Aw, man, we managed to get two and a half pages before anyone made an absurd, hyperbolic comment about people wanting changes. That miiight be a suggestions/feedback record, but, I'm not sure, hopefully we can get someone to confirm.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Indystruck

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Odd conclusion to reach consider I had said that the +range on sentinels ATO set was a good pick. 

It's more a consensus of opinions.  If a set of new ATOs/IOs were theoretically being constructed or a set of changes being considered for some offensive set like Assault Rifle or Martial Arts to add some utility, what effects do you think will be suggested the most?

[Indystruck]

10 minutes ago, Naraka said:

It's more a consensus of opinions.  If a set of new ATOs/IOs were theoretically being constructed or a set of changes being considered for some offensive set like Assault Rifle or Martial Arts to add some utility, what effects do you think will be suggested the most?

 

This took me a while to respond to because I accidentally omitted "or a set of changes being considered" and was hemming and hawwing over what specifically an ATO set could do for MA (because AR I had immediately decided if it was possible, it should just be a cone-width booster ATO).

 

There's luckily a formula in place that I am 100% not familiar with when it comes to IO bonuses, I know the devs were getting into that in some patch notes threads when they added the new IOs about what bonuses have what weight at what position in the set. In theory I'd imagine people would push to have similar-but-not-quite bonuses as existing ATOs, which, yes, tend to be Acc, Health, Res, Recharge Time, Def, Dam, Acc, Recovery, End, Regen. I think Corrs, Sents, Defs, and Blasts get +Range. And Doms really should have a damage ATO set, that's still annoying to me.

 

I'd like to see more interesting set bonuses for sure, like how some sets give you KB protection. Because I think the things I listed above... are pretty much what every set gives you in some capacity. There's outliers like "Fear sets give a bonus to Fear" or "Heal sets give a bonus to heals" but the Fear one is kinda... weak. Because you're not likely to have enough Fear powers in a set to manage to get it to go beyond the 2%~ boost you'll get from slotting it. And Chance for +1 Mag would be more fitting as a proc in the set than a set IO bonus, unless maybe it's the six slot benefit... hrm, but, I think muling these over is something for a whole other topic, really.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

Aw, man, we managed to get two and a half pages before anyone made an absurd, hyperbolic comment about people wanting changes. That miiight be a suggestions/feedback record, but, I'm not sure, hopefully we can get someone to confirm.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

 

This took me a while to respond to because I accidentally omitted "or a set of changes being considered" and was hemming and hawwing over what specifically an ATO set could do for MA (because AR I had immediately decided if it was possible, it should just be a cone-width booster ATO).

 

There's luckily a formula in place that I am 100% not familiar with when it comes to IO bonuses, I know the devs were getting into that in some patch notes threads when they added the new IOs about what bonuses have what weight at what position in the set. In theory I'd imagine people would push to have similar-but-not-quite bonuses as existing ATOs, which, yes, tend to be Acc, Health, Res, Recharge Time, Def, Dam, Acc, Recovery, End, Regen. I think Corrs, Sents, Defs, and Blasts get +Range. And Doms really should have a damage ATO set, that's still annoying to me.

 

I'd like to see more interesting set bonuses for sure, like how some sets give you KB protection. Because I think the things I listed above... are pretty much what every set gives you in some capacity. There's outliers like "Fear sets give a bonus to Fear" or "Heal sets give a bonus to heals" but the Fear one is kinda... weak. Because you're not likely to have enough Fear powers in a set to manage to get it to go beyond the 2%~ boost you'll get from slotting it. And Chance for +1 Mag would be more fitting as a proc in the set than a set IO bonus, unless maybe it's the six slot benefit... hrm, but, I think muling these over is something for a whole other topic, really.

I wouldn't mind more varied set bonuses and uniques primarily because so few variations exist to stack and capitalize on.  More +end discount globals would have been nice rather than all the +recovery uniques..or even just +END max.  Exchanging the +fear set bonus to perhaps +fear protection (maybe shifted to the 4-6th slot) would be a better consolation than the +fear duration.  Was trying to grab some +range bonuses for my Blaster to eek out a bit of distance from Speed of Sound/Jaunt but there aren't as many bonuses as you'd think.  ATO has one, one of the new TAoE sets has it too...I want to say a couple of others but would be nice to get some +range from KB sets while leveling up to 50.

 

 

[Indystruck]

What really bugs me is even in Ranged Damage sets, most of the IOs don't have a range boost component in them. Like... one or two would be nice. I know that's been mitigated in part in targeted AoEs with the new sets, but with Ranged Damage, I think there's TWO sets that have /Range on an IO, and they're both like, the 10-25 IOs. Which means targeted AoE sets have more /Range in endgame sets than Ranged Damage. 

[kenlon]

9 hours ago, tidge said:

Tankers: I'm disappointed that (because of the damage-power focus of ATO) one of the two ATO isn't specifically for the Primary. I understand that the primaries are different enough that it would be hard to figure out a way that best balanced Resist/Defense/Absorb. I suppose the tanker ATOs are also better suited for leveling builds and not end-game builds.

 

I would have to disagree, and pretty vehemently. Having the ATOs in your attacks means you have control over when the procs go off - Tanker primaries do not all include powers that you hit on a regular basis. Unless you'd want Tankers to not have a proc in one of the ATO sets, which would be kinda asstastic.

 

(Not to mention that Tankers don't need more defensive oomph - once you can live through everything, it doesn't matter how much more gets stacked on top, while damage output is always additive, so having more useful attack sets is good.)

Edited April 27, 2020 by kenlon

[tidge]

15 minutes ago, kenlon said:

I would have to disagree, and pretty vehemently. Having the ATOs in your attacks means you have control over when the procs go off - Tanker primaries do not all include powers that you hit on a regular basis. Unless you'd want Tankers to not have a proc in one of the ATO sets, which would be kinda asstastic.

 

(Not to mention that Tankers don't need more defensive oomph - once you can live through everything, it doesn't matter how much more gets stacked on top, while damage output is always additive, so having more useful attack sets is good.)

 

I grok that this is a proc thread, but there are commonly used (non-damage, non-spawning) procs and globals that get slotted in Autos (Panacea, Performance Shifter) and Toggles (Kismet), so if I want to wish for a different sort of slottable bonus specific to Tankers... I'm sorry that it makes you red-faced that I chose to make the suggestion in the ATO thread!

 

 

Some Tankers could use more defense, and some could use more resists... especially while leveling, especially when they don't have slots for full IO sets. The ATO sets aren't just for level 50s.

 

Like others have written,  I'm also generally non-plussed about the nature of the progressive set bonuses and the somewhat unimaginative boosts for many of the sets but those have nothing to do with procs, so I left those comments on the cutting room floor. I don't think it was 'asstastic' for folks to make those comments.

 

 

[kenlon]

To be clear, I was saying that not having a proc in a Tanker ATO set when all other ATs get them would be ass, not that there was anything wrong with you for suggesting it. The proc gives you access to something you wouldn't have otherwise (either +res or +absorb) on a click power, with you having control over when it kicks in, depending on where you slot it.

 

Having a purely passive ATO proc (or global bonus) sitting in an armor power would just remove one of the ways that the player has to actively manage their character. Putting in a Performance Shifter +end, or the Panacea/Numina's regen procs might have a big impact on a character's capabilities, but it doesn't add anything engaging to the moment by moment gameplay. 

 

 If you can think of a way to get that with an ATO set sitting in a def/res power, then I'm all ears.

[tidge]

23 minutes ago, kenlon said:

 If you can think of a way to get that with an ATO set sitting in a def/res power, then I'm all ears.

As I wrote in my original post:

10 hours ago, tidge said:

I understand that the primaries are different enough that it would be hard to figure out a way that best balanced Resist/Defense/Absorb.

I haven't dedicated any brainpower to "how" to give Tankers an ATO piece that makes them be better Tankers, it's just that it feels off that the Tanker ATOs only go in the secondaries (for the sets I am most familiar with). It seems clear that the intent of the Tanker ATO procs was a step in giving the Tanks *something* that makes them better Tanks. My peeve is all about the fact that there is usually a clear divide between what Tanker primaries do versus what the secondaries do and that the ATOs are essentially locked into the secondary. This bad vibe is roughly along the lines of the Mastermind ATO complaint.

[kenlon]

That doesn't actually address what I was asking - I wanted to know if you had any ideas for how to make a purely primary ATO into something that would feel active for a tanker. The mechanics of how to make a Primary IO set that would be relatively balanced appears straightforward. But losing the interactivity would suck.

 

I suppose it could be possible to implement some sort of global proc that would be added to all attacks, but that would be a nightmare to code, with my understanding of the way CoX works internally.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, kenlon said:

That doesn't actually address what I was asking - I wanted to know if you had any ideas for how to make a purely primary ATO into something that would feel active for a tanker. The mechanics of how to make a Primary IO set that would be relatively balanced appears straightforward. But losing the interactivity would suck.

 

I suppose it could be possible to implement some sort of global proc that would be added to all attacks, but that would be a nightmare to code, with my understanding of the way CoX works internally.

 

They could do...

Resist/Defense

Resist/Defense/Endurance Reduction

Resist/Defense/Recharge

Resist/Defense/Endurance Reduction/Recharge

Endurance Reduction/Recharge

Proc PBAOE *Insert Element Type* Damage

 

 

[kenlon]

45 minutes ago, BrandX said:

They could do...

Resist/Defense

Resist/Defense/Endurance Reduction

Resist/Defense/Recharge

Resist/Defense/Endurance Reduction/Recharge

Endurance Reduction/Recharge

Proc PBAOE *Insert Element Type* Damage

 

Like I said, balancing the actual enhancements would be simple. But having a damage proc in a toggle power removes the interactivity, which was the whole thing I was talking about. I like being able to get an extra effect out of my AoE, knowing that I'll get the absorb shield 90% of the time when I hit it after jumping into a pack of bad guys. 

[BrandX]

1 minute ago, kenlon said:

 

Like I said, balancing the actual enhancements would be simple. But having a damage proc in a toggle power removes the interactivity, which was the whole thing I was talking about. I like being able to get an extra effect out of my AoE, knowing that I'll get the absorb shield 90% of the time when I hit it after jumping into a pack of bad guys. 

You still could on a set that has a click Resist or Defense power.  You could also tack on Heal to all the IOs with Resist/Defense (so Resist/Defense/Heal).

 

Which would cover almost all the sets when not including the tier 9 abilities.