Assault Hybrid oddities with controllable pets

[Veracor]

So I'm taking an in-depth look at Masterminds and their mechanisms for speedrunning reasons and noticed some odd stuff with how Assault Hybrid, particularly Radial's Doublehit feature, is interacting with controllable pets, affecting Mastermind the most because their pets are meant to persist.  Test cases and results:

 

Summoning pets without Assault Hybrid toggled results in them never benefitting from it, even when you toggle it on later.

 

Summoning pets with Assault Hybrid toggled results in them benefitting from it while it is active.

 

Summoning pets with Assault Hybrid toggled and then toggling it off results in pets not benefitting from it.

 

Summoning pets with Assault Hybrid toggled, toggling it off, then toggling it on later results in the pets benefitting from it.

 

Summoning pets without Assault Hybrid toggled and zoning, results in pets never benefitting from it.

 

Summoning pets with Assault Hybrid toggled and zoning before it expires results in the pets benefitting from it.

 

Summoning pets without Assault Hybrid toggled, toggling it, and then zoning, oddly results in pets benefitting from the damage buff but never the Doublehit (tested this extra in case it was an unlucky streak).  This seems peculiar.

 

Summoning pets with Assault Hybrid toggled, toggling it off and then zoning and toggling it back on, results in the pets never benefitting from it.

 

This affects MM pets, lore pets, and presumably any other that you can give orders to.  I did not see any damage buff or doublehits on the uncontrollable Backup Radio and Signature Summon pets.

 

I tested this with Support Hybrid instead and saw zero duplication of its buffs aside from the lone aura that the player is emitting while active (working as expected).

 

Balance-wise I do not know what Assault's intended interaction is supposed to be with pets, but it only being conferred/consistent if the pet is summoned while it is active and thereafter only when the buff is active (and often only for that instance) seems like a bug.

[Apparition]

All of the Incarnate Hybrid abilities other than Support are bugged on Masterminds.  This has been the case since the Hybrid slot was first introduced.  There have been quite a few threads about this subject over the past year.

 

When Hybrid was first introduced, none of them worked on Masterminds.  Eventually, Support was fixed, and Assault and Control were partially fixed.  Then NCSoft shuttered Paragon Studios.  So what we have now is: Support Hybrid fully works on Masterminds.  Assault and Control only work if you activate them after pets are summoned.  Melee doesn't work on pets at all.

[Apparition]

As for speed running... Masterminds are incapable of it.  At least I have been while playing them.  Mastermind is my favorite AT, but I stopped playing them due to a combination of various bugs that have went unfixed, and that the AT is simply incapable of speed running unless you have someone on the team willing to TP the MM everywhere.  I got tired of fighting x8 Romans on my own in the ITF while everyone else was on the other side of the map.

[Veracor]

9 hours ago, Apparition said:

As for speed running... Masterminds are incapable of it.  At least I have been while playing them.  Mastermind is my favorite AT, but I stopped playing them due to a combination of various bugs that have went unfixed, and that the AT is simply incapable of speed running unless you have someone on the team willing to TP the MM everywhere.  I got tired of fighting x8 Romans on my own in the ITF while everyone else was on the other side of the map.

I disagree, from my math and testing, /Cold Masterminds are among the best AV killers in the game in a speedrun setting (chaining team insps and facetanking), and with the recent Homecoming changes to leashing (goto unreachable area and follow/stay when you reach your destination) you can teleport pets to you on open maps without using Incan, in addition to the normal spamming of stay/defend commands to minimize aggro in cave maps that you can't set unreachable goto targets in (and you can still Incan on the ones that you cannot positionally force the leash teleport in such cases, I'm still memorizing all the locations here).  Solo and group practice runs have me on top damage and these aren't coordinated Incan-chain runs like we were doing for records as Blasters anyhow.

 

Nothing will beat Fire/Fire Blaster for clearing groups/mob count missions like ITF, but for things like Kahn and MLTF I could see a skilled Mastermind being extremely competitive.  This thread is just a bug I noticed when investigating more about the AT's interactions.

[Monos King]

I'm actually totally fine with how assault hybrid works right now. The damage difference is enormous between using it and not, and MMs benefit disproportionately from doublehit due to the nature of pets so...seems like a fine trade off. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Monos King

[Maxzero]

On 5/5/2020 at 4:17 PM, Monos King said:

I'm actually totally fine with how assault hybrid works right now. The damage difference is enormous between using it and not, and MMs benefit disproportionately from doublehit due to the nature of pets so...seems like a fine trade off. 

 

How do they benefit extra?

 

Henchmen are their DPS no different from a Blaster getting Double hits on their powers . If pets didn't benefit from double hit you may as well not take it at all.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Maxzero

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, Maxzero said:

 

How do they benefit extra?

 

Henchmen are their DPS no different from a Blaster getting Double hits on their powers . If pets didn't benefit from double hit you may as well not take it at all.

Oh that's definitely true; double hit affecting pets is crucial to getting it as an MM. It's just that the 'Double Hit' is a lot less based on attacks actual damage than it suggests. Radius and activation time appear to be far more significant factors (Bopper or someone else fact check me on this one) so essentially just having more attacks that meet that criteria = better double hit. Each henchman has their own individual entire tray of powers, so they can actually pull put enormous double hit values based off of each of their long activation time and/or single target attacks. Thugs bruiser alone for instance would be doing double hit damage not far from what a brute would do. These images will display what I mean.

 

 

So you'll notice that despite the Scrappers Rend Armor doing more damage than the Bruisers Knockout Blow, the double hit damage it does is substantially less than the Double Hit of the Bruiser. In fact, the first rend armor has only procs, and no damage enhancements at all, and the second Rend Armor has +106% Damage Enhancements added. Despite this, the Second Rend armor actually gets LESS of a Double Hit damage than the proc bomb version. Essentially, the Bruiser alone does more Double Hit damage than most players will, and then there is the mastermind and their other pets on top of it. That's why I say it's a fair trade off; there is definitely a disproportionate Double Hit benefit for masterminds. It's one of the few things we actually get going for us.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Monos King
Adding Pics

[Maxzero]

29 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Oh that's definitely true; double hit affecting pets is crucial to getting it as an MM. It's just that the 'Double Hit' is a lot less based on attacks actual damage than it suggests. Radius and activation time appear to be far more significant factors (Bopper or someone else fact check me on this one) so essentially just having more attacks that meet that criteria = better double hit. Each henchman has their own individual entire tray of powers, so they can actually pull put enormous double hit values based off of each of their long activation time and/or single target attacks. Thugs bruiser alone for instance would be doing double hit damage not far from what a brute would do. These images will display what I mean.

 

 

So you'll notice that despite the Scrappers Rend Armor doing more damage than the Bruisers Knockout Blow, the double hit damage it does is substantially less than the Double Hit of the Bruiser. In fact, the first rend armor has only procs, and no damage enhancements at all, and the second Rend Armor has +106% Damage Enhancements added. Despite this, the Second Rend armor actually gets LESS of a Double Hit damage than the proc bomb version. Essentially, the Bruiser alone does more Double Hit damage than most players will, and then there is the mastermind and their other pets on top of it. That's why I say it's a fair trade off; there is definitely a disproportionate Double Hit benefit for masterminds. It's one of the few things we actually get going for us.

 

Doesn't Doublehit take into account recharge? The pet may do more per Doublehit but how often does it use Knockout Blow compared to how often a Scapper might use Rend?

 

Doublehit works as advertised for pets if you are willing to go through the hassle of resummoning. The 'balance' is just extra busy work to enable it.

 

Doublehit for pets should be balanced around the damage it does rather then the amount of finicking around you are willing to do to enable it.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Maxzero

[Monos King]

Just now, Maxzero said:

Doesn't Doublehit take into account recharge? The pet may do more per Doublehit but how often does it use Knockout Blow compared to how often a Scapper might use Rend?

I think it actually does less double hit damage the faster your attack recharges. 

[Maxzero]

22 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I think it actually does less double hit damage the faster your attack recharges. 

 

That's what I mean. MM pets do not benefit from recharge in anyway. While the hit from KB much be larger they won't get another hit like that for 25 seconds.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Maxzero

[Monos King]

29 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

That's what I mean. MM pets do not benefit from recharge in anyway. While the hit from KB much be larger they won't get another hit like that for 25 seconds.

They have the rest of their rotation though, along with the rest of the pets rotations. Blow for blow, MM pets do far greater double hit damage than the ATs do simply because of the larger tray of activation times and such. The other AT's hit harder on base (generally) but that's not relevant to the topic at hand anyway. I'll relent though, assault hybrid probably wasn't meant to be operating the way it is now for MMs, and it being changed/fixed wouldn't hurt anyone. But because of the existing benefit, I'll just say I wouldn't call it a priority or anything.

[Maxzero]

34 minutes ago, Monos King said:

They have the rest of their rotation though, along with the rest of the pets rotations. Blow for blow, MM pets do far greater double hit damage than the ATs do simply because of the larger tray of activation times and such. The other AT's hit harder on base (generally) but that's not relevant to the topic at hand anyway. I'll relent though, assault hybrid probably wasn't meant to be operating the way it is now for MMs, and it being changed/fixed wouldn't hurt anyone. But because of the existing benefit, I'll just say I wouldn't call it a priority or anything.

 

Considering MMs are probably the highest DPS AT already I have no problem with the lowering the proc chance for MM henchmen if the buff actually worked properly for pets.

 

Simply put now I just don't even bother worrying about whether my pets get the buff simply because its too much hassle. Its rare for me to be in one zone long enough for me to:

 

1. Use buff

2. Resummon pets during buff

3. Wait for CD

4. Use buff again at appropriate time while having zero pet deaths in the meantime.

 

So any nerf would be a buff to me if it actually worked properly.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Maxzero

[Dr Causality]

14 hours ago, Maxzero said:

 

Considering MMs are probably the highest DPS AT already I have no problem with the lowering the proc chance for MM henchmen if the buff actually worked properly for pets.

 

Simply put now I just don't even bother worrying about whether my pets get the buff simply because its too much hassle. Its rare for me to be in one zone long enough for me to:

 

1. Use buff

2. Resummon pets during buff

3. Wait for CD

4. Use buff again at appropriate time while having zero pet deaths in the meantime.

 

So any nerf would be a buff to me if it actually worked properly.

Would be a nice quality of life change overall.   But seems it would also be significant nerf against really tough AV/GM fights, where the hassle to re-summon would definitely worth it.    So a nerf that also made it work all the time, would improve regular content game play at the expensive of significantly decreasing the feats MM's could pull off solo.