Player Character Signature powers

[Chance Jackson]

Player created powers were a popular idea on the official forums back in the day & I would still love to see the idea be fulfilled.

 

The way I imagine it working is at first players would only be allowed to create attacks as those are easier from a balance perspective, more fun & limiting the initial scale of such a system would making easier to develop & result in quicker delivery.

 

Ideally you would be able to create 1 ranged attack + 1 melee attack & using a point system to choose traits like the dmg type, range, inherent accuracy, autohit, secondary effects, 0 degree cone & end cost.

 

As for visuals, I think the player should be given wide latitude to use any elements of preexisting attack's if those elements are already decoupled from each other like:

-Animation & sounds ex. knock out blow

-Special effects ex. Em's pom poms of doom on one or both fists

-Hit visual effect ex. Crushing Uppercut

-Projectiles if applicable ex. Rune of Warding

-Summonable Pseudo pet to launch the attack from if desired

along with a warm charge up &/or cool down animation selected from emotes like Kata, buffs like armors etc

 

 

 

Since you wouldn't be able to slot these powers I think they should be powerful from the get go while also accepting Alpha Slot, Interface Slot & global bonuses ignoring Fury and possibly recharge aiming for a 30 sec recharge on said power.

 

 

*I have no idea what is or isn't decoupled & if these things aren't decoupled already it would probably be too difficult (or impossible) for the homecoming crew to decouple them so that they can be grabbed a la cart

 

[Snowdaze]

I do like the concept of characters getting a signature power, however this concept seems very code/developer intensive, and until the future of the game is resolved with NCsoft, I feel the Homecoming team will not have time to entertain such an idea. Once the future of the game is more concrete that would be a good time to come back with this idea.

[MTeague]

I agree that I would not expect action on this in the foreseeable future.  and I do mean, potentially not for years.

That said, this is the kind of idea that would take an awful lot of kicking around to make it work, so I see no harm in a theorectical "how would we make this work"? sense

We'd just have to understand this is right up there with sitting around a table drinking beers and brainstorming, but not really getting up expectations for a deliverable.

 

I do think any player-created signature power would need to be slottable. 

I also like the idea of having X many "Points" to add effects to your power with, and no more.  And I think slotting could be reasonably controlled either by having the types of IO's it can take be an extra point cost to your power.  

 

Say for example, we start with a custom attack.  I choose to name it, "KLONK!".

Possibly some naming filters in place so no one goes into offensive territory, but either way, for purposes of this discussion, assume "KLONK!" was an acceptable display name. 

• I spend 1 point to make it a Melee attack.  
• I choose a War Mace animation with an overhead whack.  (no points for animation selection)
• I choose to spend 1 point making it do Smashing damage
• I choose to spend 1 point making it do KnockDOWN 
• I choose to spend 1 point giving a Stun effect.  (whether it was only a chance of stun, and what the exact magnitude would be, would be a balance issue. Guaranteed stuns cost more points, higher magnitude stuns cost more points.  Maybe make it not even possible to have too high of a magntitude no matter HOW many points I spend if there's concerns of it trivializing a fight.)
• Because I made it a melee attack, I could CHOOSE to spend another point to let it take Melee sets. But I'd have to spend a point on it. And that's a point I DON'T get to spend making it hit harder, or being more accurate, or being a cone attack, or having faster recharge, etc.
• Because I gave it a Knock effect, I could CHOOSE to spend another point to let it take Knockback sets.
• Because I gave it a Stun effect, I could CHOOSE to spend another point to let it take Stun effects. 

Now if I want it to hit extra hard, maybe I omit the KnockDown effect, don't let it take Stun sets, and accept a higher recharge and weaker accuracy. 

And yes, this means an attack that can take lots of sets would have a lower base damage. 

 

Given... the way procs work.... developers would need to consider if they'd want to let you make a custom Proc Monster power this way, or if they'd want to give such custom powers a hardcoded extra-low chance for procs to function.  I hold no opinion on what that answer should be.  But if I was a developer for it, it would be the first thing I'd raise as a potential issue if we let people create tehir own custom 16 second recharging attack that can take six different damage procs.  If the designers said that was acceptable, hey cool.  But I'd feel obligated to air it and make sure it was discussed and it didn't catch anyone by surprise later. 

 

How many points available per power?  Would take some trial and error to get a result that most people agree with (gonna say off the bat 100% satisfaction is a pipe dream...)

How many points should various selections cost?   Same.

Should some selections cost more vs less?  maybe To-Hit debuffs should cost more points than Knockback?  Again, whoooole lots of trial and error. 

Should selections cost MORE points for an AE power vs a single target power?  I'd say yes, but again, design question for how much power do you want to be achievable here.

 

Now another thing they'd have to wrestle with.... how do you rebalance these powers once they're "In the Wild"? 

Because the odds of getting this right on teh first go is right up tehre with me winning Powerball.

 

Say we magically got this tomorrow, AND, every bit as magically, there were no bugs.  But, after seeing it in action the developers decided, jeez, this is really too much.  Everyone is using a particular combo effects that's just completely OP.  We need to trim it down some.  If you decide the points costs need to be adjusted, or if you decide to reduce the total number of points available to create a power with.... what about powers that were already created?  Do you take them away in a patch and force players to redesign them, refunding any slotted enhancements to inventory or email?  Even if you don't plan on that coming up anytime soon, there should be an agreed upon plan for "This is how we'd have to handle it if it ever comes up."  Because there would be all kinds of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Also maybe have your Archtype influence point costs:  

• Holds, etc only available to Controllers and Doms?  or serious markup for anyone else?
• Raw damage cheaper for blasters and scrappers and stalkers?
• secondary effects cheaper for support classes?
• might keep it from degenerating into everyone choosing same power and help keep AT based flavors

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by MTeague

[Snowdaze]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

I agree that I would ~ power and help keep AT based flavors

 

I read the whole thing I swear I just wasn't going to quote the thing to notify you, and then have your post hide mine...

 

It's and interesting concept, but I think it's honestly a programming nightmare.

 

Simply put I think for balance sake and programming ease something a little bit more simple.

 

As a sitting around having fun idea here I go:

You unlock your signature power at lvl 10 through a mission. Each 10 levels you can come back run another mission and level up the power. Each level up gives it one more slot.

At lvl 50 you have your power how you pick it as a melee or ranged or what it looks like I haven't really worked that out, but to keep it simple it's a base clone of any power from any powerset, lets not be discriminating, but lets keep it as an attack. We can give all signature powers an enhanced bloom effect or something to make them recognizable. 

 

What makes this a signature power?

1: You picked it! It is your favorite power! But it's literally called Charactername Signature (allows for variable naming that allows uniqueness, and doesnt worry about people trying to name it themself...)

2: It's on a longer recharge (minute? minute and a half, 2?), not affected by any recharge enhancements, lets face it we really don't want it off balancing the normal games attack chains, it's made for flair and effect! Think of it as a none incarnate judgment kind of thing....

3: it's more accurate then normal, what fun is a signature wiff?

4: It's also not effected by Enhancement diversification or diminishing returns! Now I do this because even though it can become an over powered attack, it's outside of the attack chain, thus balance! Also this is what makes it having only 5 total slots, not "the worst thing ever". (or start it with 2 slots if that can be a thing, i dont really care)

5: Completely new and unique set of enhancements for it, each level range could offer a small variety of enhancements that you can only pick one from for your power. Thus as you level up and the power evolves it becomes different then other peoples, some of these enhancements will over lap in effect allowing the power to take advantage of the ability to bypass ED.

 

the above rules allow for the devs to "work within the system" much more then making a bunch of stuff from scratch.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Snowdaze

[MTeague]

17 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

I read the whole thing I swear I just wasn't going to quote the thing to notify you, and then have your post hide mine...

 

It's and interesting concept, but I think it's honestly a programming nightmare.

You are not wrong lol.  I went on a wild "pretend I had infinite time, what could we do with this?" brainstorming session.

I still like my idea better (shocker, 🙂), but I would probably fall out of my chair if anything remotely like it were implemented.

 

It's just... 

17 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

You picked it! It is your favorite power!

But my favorite power is Confuse....  most people wouldn't even call that an "attack" at all.  That's why I'd rather a roll-your-own point-based system. 

 

But.... like i said, I would have zero expectations to ever REALLY see that produced and useable.  I wasn't kidding on the "nobody will ever get this right on the first try, and how do you handle powers that already exist?"  Cause I could see that kind of "we have to change something about the point system, everybody has to redo their powers now" really really would piss a lot of people off. 

 

And there's probably something to be said for keeping it more controlled and limited choice menu (if in fact, the devs ever chose to provide any kind of player-created-power to ANY degree... which they might not....).  25 years of gaming has shown me players will always always always ALWAYS find a way to exploit any new lever they are given in ways the developers never planned on.  And my idea would give them a bazillion levers to fiddle with 😱

Edited May 14, 2020 by MTeague

[Snowdaze]

43 minutes ago, MTeague said:

You are not wrong lol.  I went on a wild "pretend I had infinite time, what could we do with this?" brainstorming session.

I still like my idea better (shocker, 🙂), but I would probably fall out of my chair if anything remotely like it were implemented.

 

It's just... 

But my favorite power is Confuse....  most people wouldn't even call that an "attack" at all.  That's why I'd rather a roll-your-own point-based system. 

 

But.... like i said, I would have zero expectations to ever REALLY see that produced and useable.  I wasn't kidding on the "nobody will ever get this right on the first try, and how do you handle powers that already exist?"  Cause I could see that kind of "we have to change something about the point system, everybody has to redo their powers now" really really would piss a lot of people off. 

 

And there's probably something to be said for keeping it more controlled and limited choice menu (if in fact, the devs ever chose to provide any kind of player-created-power to ANY degree... which they might not....).  25 years of gaming has shown me players will always always always ALWAYS find a way to exploit any new lever they are given in ways the developers never planned on.  And my idea would give them a bazillion levers to fiddle with 😱

I'm not saying you cant have 100% proc effects added via enhancement thus giving you a confuse on your powerchoice, but it would probably carry a hefty setback like -dam or something too!

[Chance Jackson]

If they were to make it slotable they would probably have to spend a lot more time on the system which is fine but we'd also need them to give us more slots I'm not sure how easy that would be 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Chance Jackson

[Snowdaze]

1 hour ago, Chance Jackson said:

If they were to make it slotable they would probably have to spend a lot more time on the system which is fine but we'd also need them to give us more slots I'm not sure how easy that would be 

it would be a separate thing only updated by missions, it would have to be "outside" of the normal leveling mechanic

[FrauleinMental]

I kinda imagined (or wished) that the Omega incarnate slot(s) would have been a sort of Signature Power, perhaps defined by a set of slots you'd have to craft to shape the power.  Maybe even a means to slot it, crafted with incarnate mats.

 

On the other hand, I recall hearing that the plans were mentioned around shutdown, but I never found out what the plans actually were.

[ZeeHero]

A system to make a signature power would not be hard to make. you'd choose a visual FX and a mechanical FX, and there would be some restrictions to prevent taking everything to be OP and nothing else, but you'd still get like 3-4 aspects to combine for a signature power.

 

Maybe even allow people to have an emblem in the power FX, seperate from their SG emblem, a personal emblem. so my character Astera could have the Stellar Punch, a super heavy aoe exploding punch which shows a big yellow glowing star of the same kind as her chest emblem.

[Nanolathe]

Not to rain on anyone's parade but, a system to make signature powers would be impossible to make if you consider the mechanical aspect of a-la-carte design. Trying to keep this balanced to the point where there aren't almost immediate "best picks" is functionally impossible. Just picking an animation, optional weapon, potentially a single rider effect (or multiple!), choosing the FX, allowing slotting of even basic IOs, let alone set bonuses and procs...

 

A build your own power would become either one of two things:

• A mechanically restricted, flavour first design that is limited in its overall power and mechanical flexibility in general play - a slightly underpowered, slightly overcosted power that is of great use to roleplayers, but not able to perform outside of it's primary function of flavour. This design puts in a lot of provisions to limit the capability of the player to "break" the system by mostly just removing specific combinations of mechanical effects, and almost certainly doesn't allow slotting set IOs and Procs. It would focus on allowing the purest player expression visually. The best mechanical outcome in this scenario for a mechanically minded player is a very pretty looking mule.
• A mechanically rich and expansive, function first design that is billed as giving the player limitless options - A vast array of possibilities that have nominally been balanced to allow the maximum in mechanical flexibility. For the aesthetically minded roleplayer this power would have to be sacrificing certain FX and animations because they don't "play well" with the system, and locking in certain effects with specific visual and audio samples to prevent visual/audio clutter, and potential misinterpretation of what the power is actually doing. Mechanics is the primary focus here. However in such a system specific combo selections will generally be more efficient that others. Trying to cater to every possible combo, the generalists will always beat the specialists in the long run. You may end up with a vast, multi-layered system that allows you to build whatever power you could want (mechanically), but in the end there will always be meta gaming of the system, and a few "best picks" are a 100% certainty. 

Let us briefly mention that this, second option would be an absolute nightmare to try and quantify the value of a specific effect, paired with any other attribute the power possesses, on a case-by-case basis, with the possibility of interacting with multiple secondary power effects and attributes, such as range/melee, damage type, AoE max targets, etc. As an illustration of what I mean I'd like to ask the questions:

• How much more powerful is a ranged single target stun, vs a Max 8 target PBAoE hold, numerically?
• Whats the value difference between a TAoE, a PBAoE, an LAoE and a Cone, numerically?
• What's the value difference between any possible power buildable by a Brute, and the same power made by a Defender, numerically?
• and so on...

The chances of flipping the coin and landing on "edge", where the two outcomes are in harmony and actually allow the player to be expressive and, at the same time back it up with mechanical depth and legitimate power, without it being a broken mess, both at the same time is vanishingly slim.

 

So the only realistic way to develop this signature power is one that adheres to flavour first design to the strictest possible degree. Each AT would have a handful of pre-made powers to add to their selection, and be able to select any animation that fits within reason (AoEs still need to look like AoEs and Melee attacks still need to look like melee attacks, and so on), any FX that are applicable and any sound or audio that isn't overly obnoxious. Again, with some limitations to not allow "troll" powers that are just an audio/visual nightmare.

 

Kind of like Patron Power Pools, Ancillary Power Pools and the entire Incarnate system...

 

...only for one power.

[Chance Jackson]

15 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Not to rain on anyone's parade but, a system to make signature powers would be impossible to make if you consider the mechanical aspect of a-la-carte design. Trying to keep this balanced to the point where there aren't almost immediate "best picks" is functionally impossible. Just picking an animation, optional weapon, potentially a single rider effect (or multiple!), choosing the FX, allowing slotting of even basic IOs, let alone set bonuses and procs...

 

A build your own power would become either one of two things:

• A mechanically restricted, flavour first design that is limited in its overall power and mechanical flexibility in general play - a slightly underpowered, slightly overcosted power that is of great use to roleplayers, but not able to perform outside of it's primary function of flavour. This design puts in a lot of provisions to limit the capability of the player to "break" the system by mostly just removing specific combinations of mechanical effects, and almost certainly doesn't allow slotting set IOs and Procs. It would focus on allowing the purest player expression visually. The best mechanical outcome in this scenario for a mechanically minded player is a very pretty looking mule.
• A mechanically rich and expansive, function first design that is billed as giving the player limitless options - A vast array of possibilities that have nominally been balanced to allow the maximum in mechanical flexibility. For the aesthetically minded roleplayer this power would have to be sacrificing certain FX and animations because they don't "play well" with the system, and locking in certain effects with specific visual and audio samples to prevent visual/audio clutter, and potential misinterpretation of what the power is actually doing. Mechanics is the primary focus here. However in such a system specific combo selections will generally be more efficient that others. Trying to cater to every possible combo, the generalists will always beat the specialists in the long run. You may end up with a vast, multi-layered system that allows you to build whatever power you could want (mechanically), but in the end there will always be meta gaming of the system, and a few "best picks" are a 100% certainty. 

Let us briefly mention that this, second option would be an absolute nightmare to try and quantify the value of a specific effect, paired with any other attribute the power possesses, on a case-by-case basis, with the possibility of interacting with multiple secondary power effects and attributes, such as range/melee, damage type, AoE max targets, etc. As an illustration of what I mean I'd like to ask the questions:

• How much more powerful is a ranged single target stun, vs a Max 8 target PBAoE hold, numerically?
• Whats the value difference between a TAoE, a PBAoE, an LAoE and a Cone, numerically?
• What's the value difference between any possible power buildable by a Brute, and the same power made by a Defender, numerically?
• and so on...

The chances of flipping the coin and landing on "edge", where the two outcomes are in harmony and actually allow the player to be expressive and, at the same time back it up with mechanical depth and legitimate power, without it being a broken mess, both at the same time is vanishingly slim.

 

So the only realistic way to develop this signature power is one that adheres to flavour first design to the strictest possible degree. Each AT would have a handful of pre-made powers to add to their selection, and be able to select any animation that fits within reason (AoEs still need to look like AoEs and Melee attacks still need to look like melee attacks, and so on), any FX that are applicable and any sound or audio that isn't overly obnoxious. Again, with some limitations to not allow "troll" powers that are just an audio/visual nightmare.

 

Kind of like Patron Power Pools, Ancillary Power Pools and the entire Incarnate system...

 

...only for one power.

All great points but in order to limit the scale of balance considerations my proposal does not offer the possibility of AoEs outside of 0 degree cones

 

I'd also like it to be set up so that your AT affects the cost of the aspects you are adding 

[ZeeHero]

I wouldnt mind if it was just choosing whether it was melee or ranged if I could have a visually personalized move with emblem.

[Nanolathe]

6 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

All great points but in order to limit the scale of balance considerations my proposal does not offer the possibility of AoEs outside of 0 degree cones

 

I'd also like it to be set up so that your AT affects the cost of the aspects you are adding 

By how much per Archetype? On what effects? If you're okay with 0° Cones vs ST Ranged, vs ST Melee, and can figure out the different modifiers needed for such powers then why would AoEs be omitted? What's the maximum damage value that would be reasonable for each Archetype? What's the greatest number of secondary effects that could be added to each power type? for each Archetype? If you're allowed to change the Damage type then what's the difference in value between those damage types? How much more potent is a Hold, than a Stun? How does the total point buy value of the power affect its casting costs in both recharge and endurance? Can you choose to not use all your points? What happens if the point buy system needs the numbers tweaked and your power is recalculated to be over the maximum points cost? If it's a ranged power, how does that factor into the calculation? Is it more or less damage? How long is the range? Can you make "Snipe" powers? Can you make effects like Trip Mine? Your original post mentions that these signature powers would be powerful; so what are the ramifications of giving traditionally non-melee focused ATs a powerful Melee attack outside of already available pool powers? What are the ramifications for giving traditionally non-ranged focused ATs a powerful ranged attack outside of already available pool powers? What's the power value of an auto-hit power vs one with an accuracy modifier of say 1.5, 1.05, or 0.75, or whatever other values you give the choice of it being? Can an Auto-Hit power have secondary effects? if so, which ones and how many? How much damage can an Auto-Hit power do? Can a power do no damage? If so, does that mean it has to have secondary effects? if so, how does the damage number effect the strength of those secondary effects for both Magnitude if we're talking sleeps, holds, immobilises, etc, vs  the percentage debuffs like -tohit, -defence, -resistance? If you roll out a "simple" version of this to begin with as you alluded to in your OP, then how would new changes be implemented? Would everyone be free to change their power at each patch drop, since any patch could conceivably change the way this system works, or the way it interacts with tweaked content within the wider game? Can you ever nerf this system and not have hoards of angry players, or even just one player, become disenfranchised with the system... or the wider game, because you took away something that THEY made? 

 

I could go on, but I'll stop. I think you get my point.

 

These are the questions (and so many more besides) that need concrete, numerical values, solid judgement calls or boolean true/false statements, and you'd need to show your working on how you arrived at those numbers and calls. Otherwise I'd be just taking the answers on faith, which is not one of my very limited set of virtues.

[SeraphimKensai]

Mine would be a PBAoE attack called "Get Off My Lawn" which forces everyone NPC/Player to zone transition to a random zone outside of the zone I'm in.

 

 

[Zeraphia]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Mine would be a PBAoE attack called "Get Off My Lawn" which forces everyone NPC/Player to zone transition to a random zone outside of the zone I'm in.

 

 

It sounds like Black Hole from Dark Miasma may be the power for you!

[Chance Jackson]

10 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

By how much per Archetype? On what effects? If you're okay with 0° Cones vs ST Ranged, vs ST Melee, and can figure out the different modifiers needed for such powers then why would AoEs be omitted? What's the maximum damage value that would be reasonable for each Archetype? What's the greatest number of secondary effects that could be added to each power type? for each Archetype? If you're allowed to change the Damage type then what's the difference in value between those damage types? How much more potent is a Hold, than a Stun? How does the total point buy value of the power affect its casting costs in both recharge and endurance? Can you choose to not use all your points? What happens if the point buy system needs the numbers tweaked and your power is recalculated to be over the maximum points cost? If it's a ranged power, how does that factor into the calculation? Is it more or less damage? How long is the range? Can you make "Snipe" powers? Can you make effects like Trip Mine? Your original post mentions that these signature powers would be powerful; so what are the ramifications of giving traditionally non-melee focused ATs a powerful Melee attack outside of already available pool powers? What are the ramifications for giving traditionally non-ranged focused ATs a powerful ranged attack outside of already available pool powers? What's the power value of an auto-hit power vs one with an accuracy modifier of say 1.5, 1.05, or 0.75, or whatever other values you give the choice of it being? Can an Auto-Hit power have secondary effects? if so, which ones and how many? How much damage can an Auto-Hit power do? Can a power do no damage? If so, does that mean it has to have secondary effects? if so, how does the damage number effect the strength of those secondary effects for both Magnitude if we're talking sleeps, holds, immobilises, etc, vs  the percentage debuffs like -tohit, -defence, -resistance? If you roll out a "simple" version of this to begin with as you alluded to in your OP, then how would new changes be implemented? Would everyone be free to change their power at each patch drop, since any patch could conceivably change the way this system works, or the way it interacts with tweaked content within the wider game? Can you ever nerf this system and not have hoards of angry players, or even just one player, become disenfranchised with the system... or the wider game, because you took away something that THEY made? 

 

I could go on, but I'll stop. I think you get my point.

 

These are the questions (and so many more besides) that need concrete, numerical values, solid judgement calls or boolean true/false statements, and you'd need to show your working on how you arrived at those numbers and calls. Otherwise I'd be just taking the answers on faith, which is not one of my very limited set of virtues.

I don't have all or even many of the answers but I thought of many of the concerns you pose & here's what I've been thinking 

 

Throw signature powers under the heading experimental & leave it there; this an all volunteer non-profit effort disenfranchisement isn't really make or break & peeps should consider it especially subject to change from the get go

 

I'd say the signature power should be respec-able every 24-48 hours real time 

 

When the points system gets nerfed & a previously created power now has more points than is allowed it becomes greyed out ala exemplaring until you modify it to be within current allowances which may incentivize not using up all your points when creating a power 

 

 

I know that is a drop in the bucket compared to all the questions posed but one thing I have been struggling with is should the system work like HxH's Nen system where creating an ability within one's strengths is the most potent thus incentivized or should the opposite be incentivized to encourage branching out? Maybe that is better left for a more advanced future version