Do Stalkers need Shadow Maul?

[Solarverse]

Do Stalkers really need Shadow Maul? I'm not so sure...at least at its current state. Right now, the damage has been a tad bit lowered (I think) and the cone widened and extended, but is this what Stalkers really needed? I'm starting to think that perhaps we are getting away from what Stalkers are at their core. Here are my thoughts on this...

 

We already have Scrappers. We don't need two of them. Stalkers are supposed to be King of Single Target Burst Damage, right? Then why would Stalkers need an animation that roots them in place while that animation plays out and does repetitive damage while you wait? I think what Stalkers need is something that strikes faster and does more damage in its place. I think what was done to Eviscerate for Stalkers (and Scrappers, although I do not agree that Scrappers should have been given the same treatment on that power) should also be done with Shadow Maul for Stalker. Have the cone changed from a Cone power, to a Single Target power that animates fast (Maybe like the original ET Animation or the animation for Psionic's fast casting Assassin Strike?) with burst damage being the focus rather than Damage Over Time.

I think Stalkers are becoming too much like Scrappers and as of right now there seems to be a fine line between Stalkers and Scrappers.  This exception being that Scrappers have a higher damage modifier and Stalkers have a bit more controlled Critts. However, are we not starting to float away from what Stalkers were meant to be; King/Queen of Single Target Burst Damage? We have already fixed a Stalker's staying power, they no longer need to continuously (although I never played one that way, I always stuck with the fight back in those days, but I could easily look around me and see why these changes were needed, most Stalkers hit and ran in those days which wasn't very helpful to a team) strike, run, get back in to hide so that they can strike and run again. They can now stick around and fight like everyone else.

However, with the new changes coming in for Dark Melee (That only really affects Scrappers/Brutes/Tanks; Stalkers don't get the Consumption power, so these changes are more for Tanks/Brutes/Scrappers) I think Stalkers should get a much needed change to Shadow Maul, that spikes harder and faster in place of it; to bring the set back to what Stalkers are supposed to be...the instant death nightmares to single targets.

I'm sure I know how most will feel about this, it's tough asking people to consider something completely new like this, especially when players are completely used to what they currently have now...but give it a moment and let it sink in a bit and ask yourself, do Stalkers really need Shadow Maul in its current state?

[Lazarillo]

Stalkers still have Midnight Grasp in Dark Melee for a big oomphy crit.  Taking away the set's only AoE is probably not the ideal solution.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

Stalkers still have Midnight Grasp in Dark Melee for a big oomphy crit.  Taking away the set's only AoE is probably not the ideal solution.

A few Stalker sets had their AoE removed in place of Assassin's Strike though, so this isn't really asking for anything new IMO.

[Lazarillo]

31 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

A few Stalker sets had their AoE removed in place of Assassin's Strike though, so this isn't really asking for anything new IMO.

I mean, yeah, but AFAIK those 0-AoE sets are generally considered rather poor on Stalkers in general.  That may just be a matter of correlation and not causation, but the very fact that others exist means DM probably doesn't need to be made into yet another.

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I mean, yeah, but AFAIK those 0-AoE sets are generally considered rather poor on Stalkers in general.  That may just be a matter of correlation and not causation, but the very fact that others exist means DM probably doesn't need to be made into yet another.

The reality is with the Assassin's Focus/out-of-hide AS changes from Issue 22, every Stalker is capable of good single-target damage, and that goes double with the re-hide ATO proc. At that point the sets with no or poor AoE have overkill single-target damage and nothing to help out otherwise. It seems a conscious design decision that any of the sets that were ported to Stalkers after the original sets didn't really give up that much (or any) AoE.

 

I've seen it stated this way in a few other threads, but as far as the "melee ATs are stepping on each others' toes!" argument... not so much. Especially now with the Tanker changes, each melee AT has its own "flavor" and Stalkers are still very much different than Scrappers if only because they can get far more control over when and how they crit. The damage/survivability relationship is right where it should be right now: Stalkers deal more damage than Scrappers deal more damage than Brutes deal more damage than Tankers, and Tankers are more survivable than Brutes are more survivable than Scrappers are more survivable than Stalkers. That sentence may be a grammatical trainwreck, but it's true.

[Solarverse]

22 minutes ago, macskull said:

The reality is with the Assassin's Focus/out-of-hide AS changes from Issue 22, every Stalker is capable of good single-target damage, and that goes double with the re-hide ATO proc. At that point the sets with no or poor AoE have overkill single-target damage and nothing to help out otherwise. It seems a conscious design decision that any of the sets that were ported to Stalkers after the original sets didn't really give up that much (or any) AoE.

 

I've seen it stated this way in a few other threads, but as far as the "melee ATs are stepping on each others' toes!" argument... not so much. Especially now with the Tanker changes, each melee AT has its own "flavor" and Stalkers are still very much different than Scrappers if only because they can get far more control over when and how they crit. The damage/survivability relationship is right where it should be right now: Stalkers deal more damage than Scrappers deal more damage than Brutes deal more damage than Tankers, and Tankers are more survivable than Brutes are more survivable than Scrappers are more survivable than Stalkers. That sentence may be a grammatical trainwreck, but it's true.

You're just trying to hurt meh head!

[Solarverse]

36 minutes ago, macskull said:

 It seems a conscious design decision that any of the sets that were ported to Stalkers after the original sets didn't really give up that much (or any) AoE.

On a more serious note, I would like to point out that Rad Melee and Broadsword (which were newly imported power sets) did indeed remove the AoEs. With this in mind, I don't think that particular statement (I acknowledge this was not the only thing you said in your case against the idea) can be held to be truth.

 

Whoops, Atom Smasher. Wasn't thinking about that due to it being a T9 ability. However, I think you catch my drift.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

41 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I mean, yeah, but AFAIK those 0-AoE sets are generally considered rather poor on Stalkers in general.  That may just be a matter of correlation and not causation, but the very fact that others exist means DM probably doesn't need to be made into yet another.

On a flip side to that, changing Shadow Maul into a single target burst damage power would even out the power choices for Stalkers a bit. As it stands now, more power sets have AoEs than ones that do not. This would simply even up the choices a bit for players to pick between all Single Target DPS or a combination of Single Target and AoE/Cones. Just some food for thought there.

[XaoGarrent]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

A few Stalker sets had their AoE removed in place of Assassin's Strike though, so this isn't really asking for anything new IMO.

And it made nearly every set worse.

 

Meanwhile, the best version of elec happens to be the Stalker version.

 

Not all things are as simple as they seem.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

Not all things are as simple as they seem.

How dare you insert philosophy into this thread!   😄

[MTeague]

Spines stalkers currenty have three AoE attacks.  Spine Burst, Ripper, and Throw Spines. And that's evne AFTER giving up Quills for Assassin's strike.