Jump to content
Flurry

Dark/Storm vs Dark/Dark

Recommended Posts

Hi trollers! It's been a long time since I've played a controller (back when the game was live) and I'm hoping to give one a spin again. Conceptually, Dark/Storm and Dark/Dark both work but maybe you could enlighten me about the differences between the pairings. What's good for solo vs. groups, which does more damage vs more control, which synergizes better, which works best before IO sets and after, etc.? Basically anything you can tell me about them. Thanks!

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Storm is way higher damage, Dark is way higher defense.

In general, especially with a primary like Dark Control that is strong defensively, an offensive boost would be more fitting.

Storm benefits more from IO sets, as /Dark is so strong defensively (especially paired with Dark/) that it does its job of shutting the enemies down without needing much investment. Storm can work cheaply, but really benefits from global Recharge (which gets expensive) in order to bring up multiple Freezing Rains, Tornadoes, and Lightning Storms).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your advice. Is Dark/Dark overkill in the defense department? And lacking offense?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Flurry said:

Thank you for your advice. Is Dark/Dark overkill in the defense department? And lacking offense?

 

 

I found it that way myself, felt really low damage.  But then again I was hoping haunts would do damage more similar to phantom army and so was disappointed they didn't seem anywhere even close.  Maybe an unfair comparison that biased me against it though.  Adding /storm would definitely help (although storm damage is late blooming so you have to stick with it).

 

Personally if you want dark/dark I much prefer going dominator where the damage is better and all that tohit debuffing is really useful in an AT that normally is lighter on defense and debuffing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dark Control is a near-perfect pairing for Storm. Storm really needs a -kb/-fly AE Immobilize and Dark delivers. Dark has excellent slotting opportunities due to -hit and a Confuse. Dark has the best non-Phantom Army pet and it has Haunt to take alpha strikes. It has the most useful AE Hold, since it's also a debuff field. Rotating Living Shadows and Gale effectively neuters most spawns with little risk to the Controller.

 

That being said, it's very late developing. Virtually all of the damage it deals comes from the last three powers you get: Umbra Beast, Tornado and Lightning Storm.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The main thing to know about Dark Control is that it is somewhat heavy on cones. 

 

The second thing worth knowing is that it was the final Control set added to the game, and by the time they got to it they had a handle on what made a power good. So, every power is good. Only the T1 immobilize is easily skippable. Dropping anything from a Dark build is always a very hard choice.

The T9 pet is easily among the best, beaten only by Gravity's Singularity. The pet is a wolf looking thing, not quite meshing with some "dark" concepts, so plan for that if concept is important.

 

Either Dark Affinity or Storm will work well as a secondary.

 

Storm is actually one of the oldest sets and Dark Affinity one of the newest. Storm is a precursor to a Dominator archetype and plays similarly in some ways, focusing on damage and some control type abilities at the expense of buffs.

FYI Storm is murder on your blue bar until high levels. If you choose it, slot heavily for endurance reduction. Also plan on some kb to kd converters for Lighting Storm and Tornado.

Pre warning about Dark Affinity, it's graphically heavy. Your character will spend a lot of time semi transparent with glowing eyes. That's my main reason for rarely playing the set. 

Edited by oedipus_tex
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The second thing worth knowing is that it was the final Control set added to the game, and by the time they got to it they had a handle on what made a power good. So, every power is good. Only the T1 immobilize is easily skippable. Dropping anything from a Dark build is always a very hard choice.

I absolutely would not skip the T1 Immobilize on a Dark/Storm build. It's essential if you're going to fight an AV to lock them in place. It's also generally better than the Hold for neutralizing single targets because (a) it's Mag 4, not Mag 3 (b) -hit + Immobilize is a de facto Hold for most enemies (c) it activates more quickly and (d) it recharges more quickly. Since Dark/Storm isn't about dealing personal damage but arranging the battlefield so your pets can do optimal damage, the T1 Immobilize isn't the 'skippable' power it might be in other combinations.

 

For Dark/Storm, I'd say the core powers are Shadowy Binds, Living Shadows, Haunt and Umbra Beast. The rest are 'skippable' in the sense that they're primarily useful for slotting opportunities rather than useful in their own right:

  • Dark Grasp. As a control, it's only Mag 3 so of limited use. While many sets will proc out their ST Hold for damage, Dark Grasp is not one of the better Holds for this sort of application and the amount of personal damage the Dark/Storm will do is trivial compared to the amount of pet damage.
  • Possess. Another victim of the Mag 3-isn't-all-that-useful issue, this can hold Coercive Persuasion so it's almost always taken for that alone - even if it's rarely used.
  • Fearsome Stare. This can slot Cloud Senses, but it's a bit over-the-top on -hit debuffs and rapidly falls by the wayside at higher levels when you've already got Living Shadows and Gale.
  • Heart of Darkness. Great on a Dominator, but generally just a good way to get yourself killed on a Controller. While you can technically stack two different PBAoE disorient, this is inconsistent with how the rest of the build tends to play (not just strictly at range but mandated at range due to Cones) and unnecessary given the soft control options of -hit and KB.
  • Shadow Field. Undoubtably the best AE Hold received by any Controller, this is primarily useful for its debuff effects. As such, it's a somewhat useful power with great slotting opportunities. However, it's recharge is too long to use every spawn.

 

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The T9 pet is easily among the best, beaten only by Gravity's Singularity. The pet is a wolf looking thing, not quite meshing with some "dark" concepts, so plan for that if concept is important.

Umbra Beast does significantly more damage than Singularity (which throws primarily control effects rather than damage effects).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Umbra Beast does significantly more damage than Singularity (which throws primarily control effects rather than damage effects).

 

Maybe, but you can't Wormhole a pack on top of the dark pet IOed with kb to kd and watch them bounce helplessly. 😄

I like both pets. The Gravity one though is incredible in the context of its powerset. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you to everyone adding to this discussion. It seems most of the conversation has been about Dark/Storm, which is somewhat surprising because when I browsed the Controller forum I found a lot more posts about Dark/Dark than Dark/Storm, so that has been extra helpful.

 

A few questions: Does the lack of a self-heal hurt /Storm? Does going/Storm require a more offensive playstyle than /Dark? Which secondary is better for teams vs. solo? In what circumstances would you rather have a Dark/Dark on your team and when would you rather have a Dark/Storm?

 

Thanks again everyone!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Flurry said:

A few questions: Does the lack of a self-heal hurt /Storm?

Does going/Storm require a more offensive playstyle than /Dark?

Which secondary is better for teams vs. solo?

In what circumstances would you rather have a Dark/Dark on your team and when would you rather have a Dark/Storm?

It takes some getting used to playing /Storm without a self heal. You can always dip into the Med pool if you need to.

 

I play /Storm aggressively using an area of denial approach or a clustering approach. LS, Nado, Freezing Rain and Hurricane are essential.

 

Both sets overlap and are fairly similar to some degree; they both overlap by providing Debuff and Control. /Dark has more team utility Buffs that, unlike other buff sets, can also benefit the player while soloing. The big difference is /Storm brings more damage with LS and 'Nado (mainly Nado)  and will suffer from End Usage if you don't mitigate for it. /Storm lends itself to solo play but a well played /Storm character can help cluster mobs by "Herdicaning"and debuff them with FR in teams; this will disable a great deal of mobs when combined.

 

 

  • Like 1

 


-Main Controllers-

Dark/Time/Primal   Earth/Thermal/Ice   Electric/Poison/Mu   Fire/Dark/Fire   Gravity/Kin/Mace   Ice/Rad/Ice   Illusion/Traps/Mace   Mind/TA/Psionic   Plant/Storm/Ice


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On /Storm I usually skip O2 Burst and take Aid Other and then Aid Self. On a Controller, the set usually mitigates enough damage that you can use Aid Self without too much issue. I'd encourage a Hover build with some Ranged defense. 

 

Storm leans very heavily on three powers: Sleet, Lighting Storm and Tornado. Steamy Mist, it's stealth aura, is nearly identical to the aura Dark and Cold get, and provides a little bit of Defense along with some exotic Resistance that is otherwise hard to get on a squishy character. Other than those 4 powers you could probably skip everything else and be okay.

 

The upshot of Storm is that you're really waiting until level 35 to start feeling how the set will play out, and only really feeling its strength at around level 40, when Lighting Storm and Tornado are slotted up. Dark Affinity in comparison is a more consistent ride.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is O2 Burst handy for topping off your pets' health? Or are they not affected by it?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Flurry said:

Is O2 Burst handy for topping off your pets' health? Or are they not affected by it?

It works on pets.

  • Like 1

 


-Main Controllers-

Dark/Time/Primal   Earth/Thermal/Ice   Electric/Poison/Mu   Fire/Dark/Fire   Gravity/Kin/Mace   Ice/Rad/Ice   Illusion/Traps/Mace   Mind/TA/Psionic   Plant/Storm/Ice


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Flurry said:

 

Is O2 Burst handy for topping off your pets' health? Or are they not affected by it?

 

It's ok, but there are usually better things you can be doing with your time. I've played a lot of demon/storm and would sometimes get sucked into the trap of keeping their health up during fights. Far better would be for me to join the fight and actively help them. I found much more success removing the power from the build. 

 

the dog will recharge fast enough if it gets killed. I mean if you plan to have o2 anyway it isn't the worst thing to use between spawns, but mid fight perhaps less so.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

It's ok, but there are usually better things you can be doing with your time. I've played a lot of demon/storm and would sometimes get sucked into the trap of keeping their health up during fights. Far better would be for me to join the fight and actively help them. I found much more success removing the power from the build. 

I think this is true for Corruptors/Defenders, but Controllers tend to be more 'sit back and watch'. I guess you can toss off some control effects, but they're not going to do much damage (especially for Dark) in the grand scheme of things - essentially all of your damage is coming from Tornado/Lightning Storm/Umbra Beast.

 

However, I do think it tends to come down to "how will I slot this?". O2 Boost is a reasonable place to dump Numina's or Preventative (or, I guess, 5-slot Panacea), depending on build and it can come in handy from time to time. I do tend to agree with the notion that if you've got all the disruption deployed and your Umbra Beast is still dying, then it was probably meant to be and O2 Boost isn't going to stop it.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I always skip 02 Burst on Storm builds because I take Aid Other + Aid Self, which is somewhat redundant. O2 Burst is a weak heal with a minor mezz protection effect. IMO it's an outdated power, designed for when battles flowed differently. Combat hasn't favored this sort of power since around 2005 or so, if it ever did.

 

I've found that no matter how much control or debuff I bring, hits break through. The point of Aid Self is less to sit there healing in the middle of battle (tho on fast moving teams I do that too), and more to top back off after each fight so time isn't lost. 

 

Note that the T3 Healing power Field Medic adds Recovery to Aid Self, which can be useful on an endurance heavy Storm build.

Edited by oedipus_tex
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/12/2020 at 11:04 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Storm leans very heavily on three powers: Sleet, Lighting Storm and Tornado. Steamy Mist, it's stealth aura, is nearly identical to the aura Dark and Cold get, and provides a little bit of Defense along with some exotic Resistance that is otherwise hard to get on a squishy character. Other than those 4 powers you could probably skip everything else and be okay.

 

The upshot of Storm is that you're really waiting until level 35 to start feeling how the set will play out, and only really feeling its strength at around level 40, when Lighting Storm and Tornado are slotted up. Dark Affinity in comparison is a more consistent ride.

I'd add freezing rain to that.  A stackable -30% resistance?  Yes please.  Not to even mention the -def, slow, and knockdown.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

I'd add freezing rain to that.  A stackable -30% resistance?  Yes please.  Not to even mention the -def, slow, and knockdown.

 

 

 

Sorry, by Sleet I meant Freezing Rain. They are nearly the same power, I get the names mixed up.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I always skip 02 Burst on Storm builds because I take Aid Other + Aid Self, which is somewhat redundant. O2 Burst is a weak heal with a minor mezz protection effect. IMO it's an outdated power, designed for when battles flowed differently. Combat hasn't favored this sort of power since around 2005 or so, if it ever did.

 

I've found that no matter how much control or debuff I bring, hits break through. The point of Aid Self is less to sit there healing in the middle of battle (tho on fast moving teams I do that too), and more to top back off after each fight so time isn't lost. 

 

Note that the T3 Healing power Field Medic adds Recovery to Aid Self, which can be useful on an endurance heavy Storm build.

If you plan to play a lot of post 50 you can also just take destiny rebirth.   Clarion can be useful as well, but funnily enough I find mez protection is easier to come by now (P2W most easily if you got the cash) than the powerful heal/regen that you get in rebirth.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Sorry, by Sleet I meant Freezing Rain. They are nearly the same power, I get the names mixed up.

Hah, I didn't even see you wrote sleet or else I'd have known what you meant so I missed that.  No big deal.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Riverdusk said:

If you plan to play a lot of post 50 you can also just take destiny rebirth.   Clarion can be useful as well, but funnily enough I find mez protection is easier to come by now (P2W most easily if you got the cash) than the powerful heal/regen that you get in rebirth.  

 

For Destiny I like to follow the leads of farming builds and stick to Ageless. Ageless allows you to hit massive Recharge numbers without disrupting proc chances, leading to a damage increase. I don't find Rebirth that useful to be honest, due to the recharge not making it an every fight patch up ability.

 

There is a downside to Aid Self of course, losing out on a 4th power pool. That's why it will always likely come down to personal choice. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

For Destiny I like to follow the leads of farming builds and stick to Ageless. Ageless allows you to hit massive Recharge numbers without disrupting proc chances, leading to a damage increase. I don't find Rebirth that useful to be honest, due to the recharge not making it an every fight patch up ability.

 

There is a downside to Aid Self of course, losing out on a 4th power pool. That's why it will always likely come down to personal choice. 

True enough, the extra recharge of ageless is really nice and the way to go if you want to maximize damage. 

 

Rebirth though isn't just about its heal, but its regen.  Interestingly enough Alpha Vigor also buffs rebirth's regen so combined with the normal regen bonuses most builds end up with you are easily rocking 400% or more regen min and half the time it is 700%+.  Enough to take care of the few pot shots that might get you without having to worry about medicine pool.   You get extra endurance reduction (very useful for storm) and accuracy on top of it.

 

I'll probably grab both myself.  When I feel safe enough that I can just go all out damage Ageless and musculature, when I'm doing tougher stuff, rebirth and vigor.  Nice that both ways also help solve endurance issues either way.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you to everyone for the discussion. I've noticed that most of it is Dark/Storm related with much less about Dark/Dark. Is Dark/Storm just a superior mix of primary and secondary? Is Dark/Dark better for support roles?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Flurry said:

Thank you to everyone for the discussion. I've noticed that most of it is Dark/Storm related with much less about Dark/Dark. Is Dark/Storm just a superior mix of primary and secondary? Is Dark/Dark better for support roles?

It really depends on what role you wish to play. Hopefully I didn't miss much but you can compare the two below:

  • Healing:
    • O2 vs Twilight Grasp: TG is available earlier, is an AoE heal and has better IO options. The only drawback is it requires a hit and a living target. O2 has Stun Sleep and -End(???) protection
    • Soul Absorption is a +Regen/Recovery with no equivalent in /Storm.
    • Howling Twilight is an AOE REZ. Its one of the best in the game.
    • /Dark is better in this department
  • Control:
    • /Storm has Gale (KB), Snow Storm (AoE -Slow, -Movement), Freezing Rain (AoE persistent KD), Hurricane (KB), Thunder Clap (Stun), Tornado (Small AoE KB), and Lighting Storm (Small AoE KB)
    • /Dark has Tar Patch (-Movement), Howling Twilight (AoE Stun and -Movement), Black Hole (AoE Intangability and AoE Immob), Dark Servant (An AoE Immob and a ST Hold)
    • /Storm technically has more control but mostly as KB/KD (Generally not team friendly but can be mitigated). Both sets deploy controls coupled with Debuffs or other effects. Gale and TClap are the exceptions; they are purely control (Gale has some proc potential).
  • Defense:
    • Shadow Fall and Steamy Mist are similar. Its basically Neg and Psi RES vs Fire and Cold RES. They are clones in every other way.
    • /Dark gets Fade which is another Team DEF Buff. /Storm had no equivalent.
    • /Dark gets the edge.
  • Debuff
    • /Storm gets Snow Storm (Slows are better when stacked, weak for the End/Sec cost). Freezing Rain (-DEF and -RES; One of Storms best powers!), Hurricane (-ToHit and -Range, unique great power but takes practice and patience to use properly), Tornado (-DEF)
    • /Dark gets Twilight Grasp (-DMG) Tar Patch (-RES), Darkest Night (-DMG and -ToHit, same cost as Storm's SS), Soul Absorption and Dark Servant.
    • /Dark's -To Hit will passively synergize better with a Dark/ primary but Freezing Rain is better than Tar Patch IMO and I am a proponent of Hurricane (Its a required pick on my /Storm Controllers

To recap IMO /Dark has better Healing and DEF. IMO /Storm has a slight edge in Control and Debuff. Something to consider is Dark/Cold. /Cold is a hybrid and sits between /Storm and /Dark but with better Defuffs. However you will have no heals and no Tornados or Lightning Storms.

 

  • Like 1

 


-Main Controllers-

Dark/Time/Primal   Earth/Thermal/Ice   Electric/Poison/Mu   Fire/Dark/Fire   Gravity/Kin/Mace   Ice/Rad/Ice   Illusion/Traps/Mace   Mind/TA/Psionic   Plant/Storm/Ice


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Hopefully I didn't miss much but you can compare the two below:

 

<snip>

 

 

Wow! Thank you for such a detailed comparison. This is amazingly helpful.

 

Edited by Flurry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...