Dark/Storm vs Dark/Dark

[Flurry]

Hi trollers! It's been a long time since I've played a controller (back when the game was live) and I'm hoping to give one a spin again. Conceptually, Dark/Storm and Dark/Dark both work but maybe you could enlighten me about the differences between the pairings. What's good for solo vs. groups, which does more damage vs more control, which synergizes better, which works best before IO sets and after, etc.? Basically anything you can tell me about them. Thanks!

 

 

 

[Coyote]

Storm is way higher damage, Dark is way higher defense.

In general, especially with a primary like Dark Control that is strong defensively, an offensive boost would be more fitting.

Storm benefits more from IO sets, as /Dark is so strong defensively (especially paired with Dark/) that it does its job of shutting the enemies down without needing much investment. Storm can work cheaply, but really benefits from global Recharge (which gets expensive) in order to bring up multiple Freezing Rains, Tornadoes, and Lightning Storms).

[Flurry]

Thank you for your advice. Is Dark/Dark overkill in the defense department? And lacking offense?

 

 

[Riverdusk]

3 hours ago, Flurry said:

Thank you for your advice. Is Dark/Dark overkill in the defense department? And lacking offense?

 

 

I found it that way myself, felt really low damage.  But then again I was hoping haunts would do damage more similar to phantom army and so was disappointed they didn't seem anywhere even close.  Maybe an unfair comparison that biased me against it though.  Adding /storm would definitely help (although storm damage is late blooming so you have to stick with it).

 

Personally if you want dark/dark I much prefer going dominator where the damage is better and all that tohit debuffing is really useful in an AT that normally is lighter on defense and debuffing.

[Hjarki]

Dark Control is a near-perfect pairing for Storm. Storm really needs a -kb/-fly AE Immobilize and Dark delivers. Dark has excellent slotting opportunities due to -hit and a Confuse. Dark has the best non-Phantom Army pet and it has Haunt to take alpha strikes. It has the most useful AE Hold, since it's also a debuff field. Rotating Living Shadows and Gale effectively neuters most spawns with little risk to the Controller.

 

That being said, it's very late developing. Virtually all of the damage it deals comes from the last three powers you get: Umbra Beast, Tornado and Lightning Storm.

[oedipus_tex]

The main thing to know about Dark Control is that it is somewhat heavy on cones. 

 

The second thing worth knowing is that it was the final Control set added to the game, and by the time they got to it they had a handle on what made a power good. So, every power is good. Only the T1 immobilize is easily skippable. Dropping anything from a Dark build is always a very hard choice.

The T9 pet is easily among the best, beaten only by Gravity's Singularity. The pet is a wolf looking thing, not quite meshing with some "dark" concepts, so plan for that if concept is important.

 

Either Dark Affinity or Storm will work well as a secondary.

 

Storm is actually one of the oldest sets and Dark Affinity one of the newest. Storm is a precursor to a Dominator archetype and plays similarly in some ways, focusing on damage and some control type abilities at the expense of buffs.

FYI Storm is murder on your blue bar until high levels. If you choose it, slot heavily for endurance reduction. Also plan on some kb to kd converters for Lighting Storm and Tornado.

Pre warning about Dark Affinity, it's graphically heavy. Your character will spend a lot of time semi transparent with glowing eyes. That's my main reason for rarely playing the set. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Hjarki]

3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The second thing worth knowing is that it was the final Control set added to the game, and by the time they got to it they had a handle on what made a power good. So, every power is good. Only the T1 immobilize is easily skippable. Dropping anything from a Dark build is always a very hard choice.

I absolutely would not skip the T1 Immobilize on a Dark/Storm build. It's essential if you're going to fight an AV to lock them in place. It's also generally better than the Hold for neutralizing single targets because (a) it's Mag 4, not Mag 3 (b) -hit + Immobilize is a de facto Hold for most enemies (c) it activates more quickly and (d) it recharges more quickly. Since Dark/Storm isn't about dealing personal damage but arranging the battlefield so your pets can do optimal damage, the T1 Immobilize isn't the 'skippable' power it might be in other combinations.

 

For Dark/Storm, I'd say the core powers are Shadowy Binds, Living Shadows, Haunt and Umbra Beast. The rest are 'skippable' in the sense that they're primarily useful for slotting opportunities rather than useful in their own right:

• Dark Grasp. As a control, it's only Mag 3 so of limited use. While many sets will proc out their ST Hold for damage, Dark Grasp is not one of the better Holds for this sort of application and the amount of personal damage the Dark/Storm will do is trivial compared to the amount of pet damage.
• Possess. Another victim of the Mag 3-isn't-all-that-useful issue, this can hold Coercive Persuasion so it's almost always taken for that alone - even if it's rarely used.
• Fearsome Stare. This can slot Cloud Senses, but it's a bit over-the-top on -hit debuffs and rapidly falls by the wayside at higher levels when you've already got Living Shadows and Gale.
• Heart of Darkness. Great on a Dominator, but generally just a good way to get yourself killed on a Controller. While you can technically stack two different PBAoE disorient, this is inconsistent with how the rest of the build tends to play (not just strictly at range but mandated at range due to Cones) and unnecessary given the soft control options of -hit and KB.
• Shadow Field. Undoubtably the best AE Hold received by any Controller, this is primarily useful for its debuff effects. As such, it's a somewhat useful power with great slotting opportunities. However, it's recharge is too long to use every spawn.

 

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The T9 pet is easily among the best, beaten only by Gravity's Singularity. The pet is a wolf looking thing, not quite meshing with some "dark" concepts, so plan for that if concept is important.

Umbra Beast does significantly more damage than Singularity (which throws primarily control effects rather than damage effects).

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Umbra Beast does significantly more damage than Singularity (which throws primarily control effects rather than damage effects).

 

Maybe, but you can't Wormhole a pack on top of the dark pet IOed with kb to kd and watch them bounce helplessly. 😄

I like both pets. The Gravity one though is incredible in the context of its powerset. 

[Flurry]

Thank you to everyone adding to this discussion. It seems most of the conversation has been about Dark/Storm, which is somewhat surprising because when I browsed the Controller forum I found a lot more posts about Dark/Dark than Dark/Storm, so that has been extra helpful.

 

A few questions: Does the lack of a self-heal hurt /Storm? Does going/Storm require a more offensive playstyle than /Dark? Which secondary is better for teams vs. solo? In what circumstances would you rather have a Dark/Dark on your team and when would you rather have a Dark/Storm?

 

Thanks again everyone!

 

[oedipus_tex]

On /Storm I usually skip O2 Burst and take Aid Other and then Aid Self. On a Controller, the set usually mitigates enough damage that you can use Aid Self without too much issue. I'd encourage a Hover build with some Ranged defense. 

 

Storm leans very heavily on three powers: Sleet, Lighting Storm and Tornado. Steamy Mist, it's stealth aura, is nearly identical to the aura Dark and Cold get, and provides a little bit of Defense along with some exotic Resistance that is otherwise hard to get on a squishy character. Other than those 4 powers you could probably skip everything else and be okay.

 

The upshot of Storm is that you're really waiting until level 35 to start feeling how the set will play out, and only really feeling its strength at around level 40, when Lighting Storm and Tornado are slotted up. Dark Affinity in comparison is a more consistent ride.

[Flurry]

 

Is O2 Burst handy for topping off your pets' health? Or are they not affected by it?

 

[Frosticus]

5 hours ago, Flurry said:

 

Is O2 Burst handy for topping off your pets' health? Or are they not affected by it?

 

It's ok, but there are usually better things you can be doing with your time. I've played a lot of demon/storm and would sometimes get sucked into the trap of keeping their health up during fights. Far better would be for me to join the fight and actively help them. I found much more success removing the power from the build. 

 

the dog will recharge fast enough if it gets killed. I mean if you plan to have o2 anyway it isn't the worst thing to use between spawns, but mid fight perhaps less so.

[Hjarki]

40 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

It's ok, but there are usually better things you can be doing with your time. I've played a lot of demon/storm and would sometimes get sucked into the trap of keeping their health up during fights. Far better would be for me to join the fight and actively help them. I found much more success removing the power from the build. 

I think this is true for Corruptors/Defenders, but Controllers tend to be more 'sit back and watch'. I guess you can toss off some control effects, but they're not going to do much damage (especially for Dark) in the grand scheme of things - essentially all of your damage is coming from Tornado/Lightning Storm/Umbra Beast.

 

However, I do think it tends to come down to "how will I slot this?". O2 Boost is a reasonable place to dump Numina's or Preventative (or, I guess, 5-slot Panacea), depending on build and it can come in handy from time to time. I do tend to agree with the notion that if you've got all the disruption deployed and your Umbra Beast is still dying, then it was probably meant to be and O2 Boost isn't going to stop it.

 

[oedipus_tex]

I always skip 02 Burst on Storm builds because I take Aid Other + Aid Self, which is somewhat redundant. O2 Burst is a weak heal with a minor mezz protection effect. IMO it's an outdated power, designed for when battles flowed differently. Combat hasn't favored this sort of power since around 2005 or so, if it ever did.

 

I've found that no matter how much control or debuff I bring, hits break through. The point of Aid Self is less to sit there healing in the middle of battle (tho on fast moving teams I do that too), and more to top back off after each fight so time isn't lost. 

 

Note that the T3 Healing power Field Medic adds Recovery to Aid Self, which can be useful on an endurance heavy Storm build.

Edited July 14, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Riverdusk]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:04 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Storm leans very heavily on three powers: Sleet, Lighting Storm and Tornado. Steamy Mist, it's stealth aura, is nearly identical to the aura Dark and Cold get, and provides a little bit of Defense along with some exotic Resistance that is otherwise hard to get on a squishy character. Other than those 4 powers you could probably skip everything else and be okay.

 

The upshot of Storm is that you're really waiting until level 35 to start feeling how the set will play out, and only really feeling its strength at around level 40, when Lighting Storm and Tornado are slotted up. Dark Affinity in comparison is a more consistent ride.

I'd add freezing rain to that.  A stackable -30% resistance?  Yes please.  Not to even mention the -def, slow, and knockdown.

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

5 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

I'd add freezing rain to that.  A stackable -30% resistance?  Yes please.  Not to even mention the -def, slow, and knockdown.

 

 

 

Sorry, by Sleet I meant Freezing Rain. They are nearly the same power, I get the names mixed up.

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I always skip 02 Burst on Storm builds because I take Aid Other + Aid Self, which is somewhat redundant. O2 Burst is a weak heal with a minor mezz protection effect. IMO it's an outdated power, designed for when battles flowed differently. Combat hasn't favored this sort of power since around 2005 or so, if it ever did.

 

I've found that no matter how much control or debuff I bring, hits break through. The point of Aid Self is less to sit there healing in the middle of battle (tho on fast moving teams I do that too), and more to top back off after each fight so time isn't lost. 

 

Note that the T3 Healing power Field Medic adds Recovery to Aid Self, which can be useful on an endurance heavy Storm build.

If you plan to play a lot of post 50 you can also just take destiny rebirth.   Clarion can be useful as well, but funnily enough I find mez protection is easier to come by now (P2W most easily if you got the cash) than the powerful heal/regen that you get in rebirth.  

[Riverdusk]

3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Sorry, by Sleet I meant Freezing Rain. They are nearly the same power, I get the names mixed up.

Hah, I didn't even see you wrote sleet or else I'd have known what you meant so I missed that.  No big deal.

[oedipus_tex]

Just now, Riverdusk said:

If you plan to play a lot of post 50 you can also just take destiny rebirth.   Clarion can be useful as well, but funnily enough I find mez protection is easier to come by now (P2W most easily if you got the cash) than the powerful heal/regen that you get in rebirth.  

 

For Destiny I like to follow the leads of farming builds and stick to Ageless. Ageless allows you to hit massive Recharge numbers without disrupting proc chances, leading to a damage increase. I don't find Rebirth that useful to be honest, due to the recharge not making it an every fight patch up ability.

 

There is a downside to Aid Self of course, losing out on a 4th power pool. That's why it will always likely come down to personal choice. 

[Riverdusk]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

For Destiny I like to follow the leads of farming builds and stick to Ageless. Ageless allows you to hit massive Recharge numbers without disrupting proc chances, leading to a damage increase. I don't find Rebirth that useful to be honest, due to the recharge not making it an every fight patch up ability.

 

There is a downside to Aid Self of course, losing out on a 4th power pool. That's why it will always likely come down to personal choice. 

True enough, the extra recharge of ageless is really nice and the way to go if you want to maximize damage. 

 

Rebirth though isn't just about its heal, but its regen.  Interestingly enough Alpha Vigor also buffs rebirth's regen so combined with the normal regen bonuses most builds end up with you are easily rocking 400% or more regen min and half the time it is 700%+.  Enough to take care of the few pot shots that might get you without having to worry about medicine pool.   You get extra endurance reduction (very useful for storm) and accuracy on top of it.

 

I'll probably grab both myself.  When I feel safe enough that I can just go all out damage Ageless and musculature, when I'm doing tougher stuff, rebirth and vigor.  Nice that both ways also help solve endurance issues either way.

[Flurry]

Thank you to everyone for the discussion. I've noticed that most of it is Dark/Storm related with much less about Dark/Dark. Is Dark/Storm just a superior mix of primary and secondary? Is Dark/Dark better for support roles?

[Flurry]

3 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Hopefully I didn't miss much but you can compare the two below:

 

<snip>

 

 

Wow! Thank you for such a detailed comparison. This is amazingly helpful.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Flurry

[Doc Ranger]

If I am on a team and they invite you I will be happier if you are Dark/Dark rather than Dark/Storm. 
 

Dark/Dark makes the whole team invincible. I have played both and my main is still a Dk/Dk. I deleted the Dk/Storm a long time ago.

[Riverdusk]

One thing to keep in mind with controller's dark affinity secondary, it has a power called Fade that personally I dislike a lot just because of its graphical effect.   It is hard to avoid taking it because stat wise it is a fantastic power and one of the best powers of the set.  But graphically, I find it horrible.  It turns your whole team almost completely translucent (much more so than steamy mist) and gives them glowing eyes for the duration.  Often it also has an annoying flickering effect to it that is almost headache inducing. 

 

It is bad enough when a power has graphics to it that I don't care for, but I really dislike forcing such extreme graphics on my team mates.  Some people can get really annoyed by having their character avatar basically be made to disappear (and all their costume work with it).  

 

As it stands now I just can't play the set (just like I use to avoid cold until they finally made a minimal fx version of the shields),  If I'm going to avoid taking fade I'd rather just play another set.  Hopefully they eventually do something about fade's graphics.

[Doc Ranger]

I have same problem with Storm and Time graphics. And Earth’s way overdone stalagmite effects. And Gravity and Sonics sounds. 
 

No problem with Fade. I guess because it makes them translucent. Which does not annoy me at all. Aside from the glowing eyes, which most people end up doing in costume creation, Fade is actually its own minimal fx graphics option. 
 

Never heard anyone complain about this particular power before 🙂

Edited July 14, 2020 by Doc Ranger