What Would You Change About Dominators?

[Mezmera]

8 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Perma doms dont have to fill their bar. If perma doms is super easy to achieve like you say, then why have the bar? Shouldnt all doms have to fill the bar? why only some?

 

Is it so doms have a larger death penalty than every other AT? That seems unfair.

 

You need to separate the argument from you. We already gathered that your dom can out tank tanks and out damage blasters. It's as easy as 1-2-3 😉

 

Clearly not everyone can use mids as well as you, or play at your level. But why are you gatekeeping the AT  and holding that over people? I have no doubt you are a great player, you have mentioned it without end. But you assume other people are not capable players too. But player skill is nearly irrelevant to this discussion. 

I don't log on with the full bar, I'm a rogue so I have to fill my bar just like anyone else, if I die I have to fill it again, filling the dom bar is such a mundane thing to complain about.  

 

Who says I use mids?  I'm good with numbers, I've got an accounting and stats background, I have a photographic memory and then there's trial and error because mids can never tell you what powers you will like in your play style.  Not once have I used mids.  But it's a good thing to point out resources like these for those that need the guidance.  

 

Player skill has everything to do with playing games and especially the Dominator AT.  If there's no value to building a skill to play something why even get good and play it at all?  Lets all just run around with unlimited judgement I win buttons.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

14 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

But defense bonuses are much harder to come by. 

 

Strongly disagree. Thunderstrike is dirt cheap and has 2 Ranged defense bonuses. It's harder to get both Defense and Recharge in one package, true. That is why Dominators are harder to build than other classes. I can go heavier for defense on a Controller or Blaster and not worry I didn't hit the magic Recharge number,

[Mezmera]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Strongly disagree. Thunderstrike is dirt cheap and has 2 Ranged defense bonuses. It's harder to get both Defense and Recharge in one package, true. That is why Dominators are harder to build than other classes. I can go heavier for defense on a Controller or Blaster and not worry I didn't hit the magic Recharge number,

That's the cheaper set in the blast set with the defense bonus yes or you could do a full set of Superior Winter Blast for a good ranged defense bonus plus other better stats, just not the +recharge.  Every power selection a dom can take has a corresponding set that can get a good bonus chunk of +recharge.  Mixing and matching for balance is the ideal. 

 

You can also 5 set Decimations all across your ranged attacks as well for 5x 6.25% recharge too.  That'll save you 5 extra slots where dominators are slot hungry.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mezmera

[kiramon]

45 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

And defense builds are so much easier at the magic 44% and for incarnate content 56% numbers than when you're less than that cap, and no Kira it doesn't scale 1 to 1.  What other value would you like me to use as an example, faster recharging crashless blaster nukes?  You can take issue with any optimization of a "magic" number.  

 

 

 

 

I literally broke down for you THE MATH behind defense.  Gladly will share it for you again. Do you know what % difference is? How can I help you understand better? I'm here to help. I'll share my self-made chart again with you. 

 

Defense	% to be Hit	1000 hits-#Hits	% Diff
45%	5%	50	0%
44%	6%	60	20%
43%	7%	70	40%
42%	8%	80	60%
41%	9%	90	80%
40%	10%	100	100%
39%	11%	110	120%
38%	12%	120	140%

 

 

Just to be clear, there's no magic behind your chance to be hit (vs the cons that would have a 50% to hit you)

45% literally means you have a 5% chance to be hit. 

44% literally means you have a 6% chance to be hit.

40% literally means you have a 10% chance to be hit. 

 

What you're referring to as non-linear is that it doesn't mean "you take only 1% more hits." 

 

L.i.n.e.a.r 

Quote

I've got an accounting and stats background, I

^_^

 

Here, I'll add some #s for you to see how many swings it takes to kill you. 

 

1 dmg per hit
Def	HP 1000	% Diff
45%	20000	Base
44%	16667	-16.67%
43%	14286	-28.57%
42%	12500	-37.50%
41%	11111	-44.44%
40%	10000	-50.00%
39%	9091	-54.55%
38%	8333	-58.33%

Edited July 31, 2020 by kiramon

[Frosticus]

11 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I don't log on with the full bar, I'm a rogue so I have to fill my bar just like anyone else, if I die I have to fill it again, filling the dom bar is such a mundane thing to complain about.

Yah same, I fill it once per play session usually because I'm a perma dom. So why even have it if it is so mundane? Although I'd like brutes more if they only had to build fury once and it lasted the rest of their play session.... Same with sentinel opportunity, just chaining that would be great. 

 

I'll take you at your word that you are good with numbers. You seem to be struggling with some of them in this thread, but I'll chalk that up to divergent viewpoints clouding objectivity. 

 

Anyway, there are some solid ideas in this thread with no apparent nerfing being called for. I hope powerhouse eventually makes doms shine a bit brighter. Just look at tanks now!

[Mezmera]

11 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Yah same, I fill it once per play session usually because I'm a perma dom. So why even have it if it is so mundane? Although I'd like brutes more if they only had to build fury once and it lasted the rest of their play session.... Same with sentinel opportunity, just chaining that would be great. 

 

I'll take you at your word that you are good with numbers. You seem to be struggling with some of them in this thread, but I'll chalk that up to divergent viewpoints clouding objectivity. 

 

Anyway, there are some solid ideas in this thread with no apparent nerfing being called for. I hope powerhouse eventually makes doms shine a bit brighter. Just look at tanks now!

Do you even see yourself?  You're complaining about the dominator mechanic, then you want instant max fury from the brute mechanic.  

 

I'm the one struggling with numbers and yet I'm not the one throwing out vague generalizations that doms rank 9th and 8th in damage potential.  

 

Revamping the underperforming assaults were a great idea and sure some minor tweaks that the majority feel necessary but I'll not get on board with outright changing Fury, Defiance, Domination and any other inherent that's there to differentiate the feel between another AT.  

 

Tanks were always fine, I never logged onto my tank to bring extra damage and still don't.  It's an unkillable bag of hp that some were jealous of brutes that caused the change.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mezmera

[kiramon]

3 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Do you even see yourself?  You're complaining about the dominator mechanic, then you want instant max fury from the brute mechanic.  

 

I'm the one struggling with numbers and yet I'm not the one throwing out vague generalizations that doms rank 9th and 8th in damage potential.  

 

Revamping the underperforming assaults were a great idea and sure some minor tweaks that the majority feel necessary but I'll not get on board with outright changing Fury, Defiance, Domination and any other inherent that's there to differentiate the feel between another AT.  

 

Tanks were always fine, I never logged onto my tank to bring extra damage and still don't.  It's an unkillable bag of hp that some were jealous of brutes that caused the change.  

 

Maybe this will help you understand:

If you have 123%+ recharge, imagine you only have to fill your Fury bar once per playthrough.

If you have 122% or less +recharge, you have to fill it up again every 90.1+ seconds, starting at zero.

 

THAT IS THE POLARIZATION

Edited July 31, 2020 by kiramon

[Frosticus]

3 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Do you even see yourself?  You're complaining about the dominator mechanic, then you want instant max fury from the brute mechanic.  

Apologies. I thought the sarcasm was apparent.

Apparently not.

 

I just find it odd that some doms have to build the bar and some don't (after the initial 1 time). All brutes have to build fury. All sentinels have to build opportunity. 

Powerhouse said tanks weren't up to snuff. He has more data than us.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mezmera]

14 minutes ago, kiramon said:

 

Maybe this will help you understand:

If you have 123%+ recharge, imagine you only have to fill your Fury bar once per playthrough.

If you have 122% or less +recharge, you have to fill it up again every 90.1+ seconds, starting at zero.

 

THAT IS THE POLARIZATION

So?  And it's hard to build it back up?  There's no remedies to alleviate the issue with domination?

 

Your example with fury doesn't fly because if you stop attacking as a brute you have to build fury back up to max and that's always the constant, there's no magic number you can slot to avoid this mechanic.  Fury operates by an attacking and being attacked mechanic so it's still best to slot as much +recharge bonuses that you can get into them as well to keep attacking to keep up fury.  So why wouldn't you want 123%+ recharge on a brute as well?  Wah wah.  

 

So by this rationality doms have an easy out.  

 

You want doms to be easier that's your POLARIZATION.    

[kiramon]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

So?  And it's hard to build it back up?  There's no remedies to alleviate the issue with domination?

 

Your example with fury doesn't fly because if you stop attacking as a brute you have to build fury back up to max and that's always the constant, there's no magic number you can slot to avoid this mechanic.  Fury operates by an attacking and being attacked mechanic so it's still best to slot as much +recharge bonuses that you can get into them as well to keep attacking to keep up fury.  So why wouldn't you want 123%+ recharge on a brute as well?  Wah wah.  

 

So by this rationality doms have an easy out.  

 

You want doms to be easier that's your POLARIZATION.    

You are like the most confused person I’ve ever met. Like you literally argue against yourself and don’t even know it. What a hoot

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

We already gathered that your dom can out tank tanks and out damage blasters. It's as easy as 1-2-3 😉
Clearly not everyone can use mids as well as you, or play at your level.

 

Smooth touch.😆

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, kiramon said:

You are like the most confused person I’ve ever met. Like you literally argue against yourself and don’t even know it. What a hoot

Yes Lucy it is confusing to converse with you.  😌

[kiramon]

Just now, Mezmera said:

Yes Lucy it is confusing to converse with you.  😌

I know sometimes logical arguments can be hard to understand for some. It’s okay; like I said,  I’m here to help you. 🙂 

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, kiramon said:

I know sometimes logical arguments can be hard to understand for some. It’s okay; like I said,  I’m here to help you. 🙂 

Come play with my dom, your logic will get tossed right out the window.  My toons are quite well thanks though. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mezmera

[kiramon]

Just now, Mezmera said:

Come play with my dom, your logic will get tossed right out the window.  My toons are quite well thanks though. 

Let’s have you play your dom at sub 123 and me play the same exact build except at 123+. 
 

you can even play at 45% defense and I’ll play at 44%. 

[Coyote]

You have the secret powerset, Logic Control? Or is it Illogical Control? I hate it when people run perma-Logic characters.

Hm. I'd like to get the binary nature of perma-Doms removed by removing the bar and leaving it up to the power's recharge only... as a game designer, it's very hard to balance characters who have such a huge step in power.
Perma-Dom? Fighting these mezzing Bosses is a joke.
Not a perma-Dom? Fighting these mezzing Bosses is a nightmare.
If you're a game designer and trying to balance an NPC spawn, the binary nature of Domination already makes things difficult. Making it permanent for some characters but not all is a very large gap. Good game design with regards to character balance has the characters constrained within tighter limits of effectiveness, and separates them via style of play and player skill, not via a huge gap in statistical ability.

[Mezmera]

Just now, kiramon said:

Let’s have you play your dom at sub 123 and me play the same exact build except at 123+. 
 

you can even play at 45% defense and I’ll play at 44%. 

You want me to run around missions and not activate domination unless I need to?  Okay not a problem that's how I learned to play the AT to begin with.  

 

Then the next mission I'll let loose and we can see how we stack up.  

[Frosticus]

So in my experience (i've been wrong before, but usually not). This doesn't preclude that doms aren't fun, or powerful. It is just information.

This is roughly where doms fall in terms of single target damage. There are a few outliers (ie fire/fire), but every AT has some outliers both positive and negative.

 

Single Target (no epic ATs)

MMs (heavily variable could be 1-7th)

Stalkers

Scrappers 

Blasters

Offensive Corrs

Brutes

Tanks

Offensive Defs

Doms

Sentinels

Trollers

 

This is roughly where doms fall in terms of aoe damage. There are a few outliers (ie plant/ma), but every AT has some outliers both positive and negative

AoE (no epic AT's)

Blasters

Offensive Corrs

Sentinels

Offensive Defs

Scrappers (many brutes/tanks can do more aoe, but on avg scrap should do more)

Brutes

Tanks

MM's

Doms

Stalkers

Trollers

 

*your personal dom might be higher (or lower). My ill/cold troller sits pretty high on the list for single target damage, but I'm objective enough to understand that that isn't the case for most trollers and realize they generally sit dead last.

[Mezmera]

Just now, Frosticus said:

So in my experience (i've been wrong before, but usually not). This doesn't preclude that doms aren't fun, or powerful. It is just information.

This is roughly where doms fall in terms of single target damage. There are a few outliers (ie fire/fire), but every AT has some outliers both positive and negative.

 

Single Target (no epic ATs)

MMs (heavily variable could be 1-7th)

Stalkers

Scrappers 

Blasters

Offensive Corrs

Brutes

Tanks

Offensive Defs

Doms

Sentinels

Trollers

 

This is roughly where doms fall in terms of aoe damage. There are a few outliers (ie plant/ma), but every AT has some outliers both positive and negative

AoE (no epic AT's)

Blasters

Offensive Corrs

Sentinels

Offensive Defs

Scrappers (many brutes/tanks can do more aoe, but on avg scrap should do more)

Brutes

Tanks

MM's

Doms

Stalkers

Trollers

 

*your personal dom might be higher (or lower). My ill/cold troller sits pretty high on the list for single target damage, but I'm objective enough to understand that that isn't the case for most trollers and realize they generally sit dead last.

Luls

[kiramon]

4 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

You want me to run around missions and not activate domination unless I need to?  Okay not a problem that's how I learned to play the AT to begin with.  

 

Then the next mission I'll let loose and we can see how we stack up.  

What’s your doms name on excelsior 

[Mezmera]

Just now, kiramon said:

What’s your doms name on excelsior 

Letifera

[oedipus_tex]

There are a lot of opinions I respect here. I'm glad to hear the POVs of some the game's veteran players.

 

 

I'd like to talk about the powers that don't Dominate because they are pet based. What should be done with these? Should developers try to create the tech to fix them? Leave them as is? Generate a second pet?

 

Here's a list of powers that aren't affected by Domination and a little bit about them.

 

 

• ICE  - Overall gets a pretty raw deal on Domination. The 4 standard powers Dominate, nothing else does. 
  • ARCTIC AIR. This is currently a 30% chance for Mag 3 Confusion, rolled every pulse. The Confusion is a pure luck roll, there is no ToHit roll. Note because base Dominator scale for Confusion is lower than Controllers, this power is actually weaker on Dominators than Controllers. Also, Dominators have a lower Recharge debuff scale (-50% versus -62.5%). This seems somewhat straightforward, put a second chance for Mag 3 Confuse. But I'd really like a closer look at just what the intention of this power is and the hoops players have to jump through to make it achieve that purpose. I happen to think its one of the most fun powers in the game, BUT I resent having to trick out my build with defense and mezz protection among other things to have any hope of it contributing. If nothing else, this should not detoggle on mezz. Restoring the Contagious Confusion proc to its former glory here would also be welcomed.
• • ICE SLICK. 8% chance for knockdown rolled each pulse. It's unclear whether this should do something extra because knockdown is not strictly a "mezz." However, this is one of Ice's main control powers, replacing what in another set would be a hard control. Given that, I wish this either summoned additional Ice Slicks or increased the chance to knockdown. You can see by stacking powers like Ice Slick and Freezing Rain that two pets of this sort in the same spot is very effective, I wish Ice Slick in Domination mode did that.
  • SHIVER. This power just LOLsux. The Blaster version was recently greatly improved, lets hope something happens to this. There isn't any reason to think it should Dominate, because it's a debuff. I am unsure whether that's how it should stay. 
• EARTH
  • EARTHQUAKE. 7% chance for knockdown rolled each pulse, with some unehanceable -ToHit. See Ice Slick above.
  • VOLCANIC GASSES. It's a pet that summons other pets. Controller and Dominator versions are identical.
• ELECTRIC
  • SYNAPTIC OVERLOAD. The first enemy hit is affected by Domination, other enemies are not. This frankly feels half done. If we can't fix it to make it truly Dominate, it should summon a second chain in Domination mode OR create an AoE effect on the first enemy putting a Mag 3 Confuse on stuff within X radius, possibly with a delay.
  • STATIC FIELD. This power is identical on Controllers and Dominators. If a pulsing Mag 6 Sleep would be overpowered, the option would be to make the first cast Mag 6 and subsequent ones Mag 3. As is, this power does Sleep bosses and even Elite Bosses eventually, if they stand in the field and take no damage. It would just be nice to be able to zap them to sleep more quickly.
• GRAVITY
  • PROPEL, LIFT. Ok, you say, but these powers are blasts not Controls, which is what it is. But it points to why Gravity needed some revisions before making its way to Dominators. Gravity Assault would have made for a great secondary with these two powers moved there and replaced with some form of Control. It's too late now. So maybe in Dom mode the AoE knockdown on Propel could be bigger (10ft increased to 15 or 20?) and Lift could lightly knock up, but not damage, enemies within xft?
• FIRE
  • BONFIRE. Probably doesn't belong in this list, just listing since Ice Slick and Earthquake are listed above. This power was never a cornerstone of Fire the way quake/slick are for earth/ice so unsure it matters.

Edited July 31, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

15 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

There are a lot of opinions I respect here. I'm glad to hear the POVs of some the game's veteran players.

 

 

I'd like to talk about the powers that don't Dominate because they are pet based. What should be done with these? Should developers try to create the tech to fix them? Leave them as is? Generate a second pet?

 

Here's a list of powers that aren't affected by Domination and a little bit about them.

 

 

• ICE  - Overall gets a pretty raw deal on Domination. The 4 standard powers Dominate, nothing else does. 
  • ARCTIC AIR. This is currently a 30% chance for Mag 3 Confusion, rolled every pulse. The Confusion is a pure luck roll, there is no ToHit roll. Note because base Dominator scale for Confusion is lower than Controllers, this power is actually weaker on Dominators than Controllers. Also, Dominators have a lower Recharge debuff scale (-50% versus -62.5%).
• • ICE SLICK. 8% chance for knockdown rolled each pulse. It's unclear whether this should do something extra because knockdown is not strictly a "mezz." However, this is one of Ice's main control powers, replacing what in another set would be a hard control. Given that, I wish this either summoned additional Ice Slicks or increased the chance to knockdown. You can see by stacking powers like Ice Slick and Freezing Rain that two pets of this sort in the same spot is very effective, I wish Ice Slick in Domination mode did that.
  • SHIVER. This power just sucks LOL. The Blaster version was recently greatly improved, lets hope something happens to this.
• GRAVITY
  • PROPEL, LIFT. Ok, you say, but these powers are blasts not Controls, which is what it is. But it points to why Gravity needed some revisions before making its way to Dominators. Gravity Assault would have made for a great secondary with these two powers moved there and replaced with some form of Control. It's too late now. So maybe in Dom mode the AoE knockdown on Propel could be bigger (10ft increased to 15 or 20?) and Lift could lightly knock up, but not damage, enemies within xft?

I won't speak to Fire control as those oogly imps turn me off to playing it.  I think overall Earth and Electric control are in a relatively better place than more of the control sets.  

 

These two yeah Ice and Gravity control I have dominators of and I'll say that Ice could use some care in a lot of places.  Gravity I agree that the two attacks are redundant on doms and typically you're going to want to make use of your secondary attacks first anyways since you'll likely have a mechanic that benefits those attacks more.  It's a better control set for controllers than doms yeah.  

 

Another would be that Wormhole doesn't port bosses even when in domination, typically I wormhole groups where they stand so they are all clumped together in stuns, but still it's not exactly a fire and forget control so it shouldn't be penalized by not porting bosses.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

I'm actually very confused by the damage that Gravity does. Gravity has that "Impact" mechanic that makes Lift and Propel hit harder after you use Gravity Distortion. On Controllers it works well, possibly too well, because I get the sense that with Containment they either out-damage Dominators or get close enough to obsolete Gravity Dominators.

 

Has anyone who is good at that stuff run the numbers on Distortion > Lift > Propel versus what is available in the Assault sets? I've never been able to decide whether its better to skip Lift/Propel or skip single target attacks in the Assault set. 

 

I've long felt that for Dominators, Impact damage should be a proc, not a mechanic built specifically into Propel and Lift, and any Assault power should proc it. That would remove some of the ambiguity.

[Chirikiti]

Nothing needs to be changed with domination or dominators. they are awesome as is. They are awesome at level 2 when you get out of the tutorial. It barely takes any time to build domination in any situation.

 

Why are any perma doms losing their domination? especially in a mission or TF? It's not hard to achieve perma, hell my new doms are perma (with hasten) at level 30).

 

Back in the day when just SOs and maybe Hami, I dealt with soloing the leveling content and playing TFs just fine saving my Domination for when I wanted/needed it. 

 

Defenses don't even need to be high, my dom has the worst defenses of any of my characters and I've solo'd practically everything (I'm perma Without hasten) and 80-90% of the time I'm tucked right in melee range, often the Tank.

 

Nothing needs to be changed about the AT or how it works at all. It's fantastic as is.

 

Seriously