Potentially easy "new" content for higher level Praetorians

[Darmian]

Ok, I'm actually spamming this around and some will have seen it before, but bear with me.  Here's the modified cut & paste from elsewhere.

 

Dark Watcher (who you do meet in Praetoria), gives access to the same missions that Number Six has except entering via the Night Ward portals. 

 

It is a bugbear playing a solid gold toon when there is an entire section of missions dedicated to your place of origin that you can't access at all without becoming a Primal character. So plant Dark Watcher somewhere in Praetoria (could even be Nova, he's a time and dimension traveler after all, the same way that other high level contacts hang around in low level areas, like James Harvan in Atlas) and he'll speak to you when you're the right level and give you the exact same missions that Number Six does.  The exact same ones but you just enter via Night Ward.*

 

Or hell, it COULD be Number Six talking to you via the Static! Again just enter via Night Ward or in Six's case the map for the Rift Enclosure mission could be used back to back, whereby you are simply shortcutting local space from one portal in Neutropolis to another in Last Bastion and so on, rather than crossing an alternate dimension.

 

Goldsiders get the chance to go out fighting without abandoning their homeland.

 

* Might need a dialog tweak here and there but other than that it's: Add contact(s) and a door. Cue up existing missions.  In Ouro they'd sit directly under the existing Number Six mission set but have (Nova Praetoria) marked beside them like other Goldside arcs do.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Darmian

[Darmian]

I know Reese recognizes a Praetorian origin character if you run one of those through this set of missions, I'll have to test it with a Primal only character, unless anyone else can enlighten me?  Or maybe that's on the HC wiki?  Time to look.

[Vanden]

Doesn't Number Six's arc take place after Tyrant nukes the Magisterium and Praetoria itself has fallen? Doesn't seem like something a Praetorian character should be able to do until they've finally left Praetoria behind.

[Darmian]

12 hours ago, Vanden said:

Doesn't Number Six's arc take place after Tyrant nukes the Magisterium and Praetoria itself has fallen? Doesn't seem like something a Praetorian character should be able to do until they've finally left Praetoria behind.

Last Bastion's story does take place then but isn't anywhere near "Praetoria Proper" (coupled with the fact that the entire Underground is actually a system of nuclear bunkers), and are you seriously suggesting that any Praetorian still there wouldn't be fighting the Hamidon? You have Praetorian citizens in danger and IDF troopers still unconverted to DE monstrosities to rescue.  Any Praetorian would be there doing their bit.  I don't see any reason why they would have had to leave to do this.

 

And if it's the simple fact that I suggested that Number Six or Dark Watcher be located in Nova, then place them in First Ward or Night Ward. In fact A static box INSIDE the never used First Ward train station would be perfect for Six.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Darmian

[Darmian]

Yes, I started this thread, yes I'm bumping it 🙂 Because it's entirely doable!

[golstat2003]

On 11/29/2020 at 11:36 AM, Darmian said:

Last Bastion's story does take place then but isn't anywhere near "Praetoria Proper" (coupled with the fact that the entire Underground is actually a system of nuclear bunkers), and are you seriously suggesting that any Praetorian still there wouldn't be fighting the Hamidon? You have Praetorian citizens in danger and IDF troopers still unconverted to DE monstrosities to rescue.  Any Praetorian would be there doing their bit.  I don't see any reason why they would have had to leave to do this.

 

And if it's the simple fact that I suggested that Number Six or Dark Watcher be located in Nova, then place them in First Ward or Night Ward. In fact A static box INSIDE the never used First Ward train station would be perfect for Six.

Lore wise it might get a bit confusing if they haven't left yet . . . but that doesn't seem like a large drawback to this suggestion. I say do it anyway.

 

Consider this a bump.

[Darmian]

23 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Lore wise it might get a bit confusing if they haven't left yet . . . but that doesn't seem like a large drawback to this suggestion. I say do it anyway.

 

Consider this a bump.

Why would it be confusing?  I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm literally not seeing it.  A Praetorian who stayed and is seeing their world over run by DE gets an offer of help from someone mysterious through the Static (or however) (It's Praetoria, they're used to secretive nonsense).  So they do!

 

And thanks for the bump!

[Vanden]

Well the arc makes numerous references to how your character is an incarnate, and the plot doesn't really work unless your character is incarnate to boot (channeling incarnate power to some end, taking on foes that are beyond non-incarnates, etc.). There is no story way for a Praetorian who hasn't gone through the rift enclosure to become an incarnate. SCoRE removed some of the restrictions on incarnate leveling that were present on Live, making it so you don't have to be doing any specific content (all of which requires transitioning to Primal Earth), but that was purely for player convenience, and no story reason for lifting that restriction was ever written.

[JKPhage]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Well the arc makes numerous references to how your character is an incarnate, and the plot doesn't really work unless your character is incarnate to boot (channeling incarnate power to some end, taking on foes that are beyond non-incarnates, etc.). There is no story way for a Praetorian who hasn't gone through the rift enclosure to become an incarnate. SCoRE removed some of the restrictions on incarnate leveling that were present on Live, making it so you don't have to be doing any specific content (all of which requires transitioning to Primal Earth), but that was purely for player convenience, and no story reason for lifting that restriction was ever written.

I mean, Tyrant is the champion of the well and has been able to dole out Incarnate-level power to his various henchpeople, all the way down to Black Swan of all people. If someone is going to go to the effort of adding a Praetorian-accessible version of this particular story arc then it wouldn't exactly be difficult to put together a small Ramiel-esque arc (or realistically two versions of it) where a Loyalist is chosen for a vital mission and promised a sliver of Incarnate power in return as a reward for serving the empire, or a Resistance member is tasked to do some spy work and figure out if there's a way to siphon off some of that sweet Incarnate juice for themselves, resulting in them snatching a fragment of power along the way. Short, sweet and flavorful if someone wants to stick to purely Goldside, and then you have that requirement fulfilled by an in-game explanation.

 

On the other hand, one could also assume from the fact that the IDF and tons of various enemies present in Incarnate trials are able to square up with (if not exactly successfully) Primal Incarnates, that perhaps Tyrant's deep connection to the well has sort of permeated Praetoria and allowed those with existing power to sort of "push through the limit" naturally without even realizing it at first. They "cap out" and then suddenly find that they have access to new and untold levels of power while fighting to defend their homeland and discover that it can be pushed even further.

 

Of course I'd prefer the former, just because an in-game explanation is always better than a head-canon, no-need-to-explain approach.

[Vanden]

8 minutes ago, JKPhage said:

I mean, Tyrant is the champion of the well and has been able to dole out Incarnate-level power to his various henchpeople, all the way down to Black Swan of all people. If someone is going to go to the effort of adding a Praetorian-accessible version of this particular story arc then it wouldn't exactly be difficult to put together a small Ramiel-esque arc (or realistically two versions of it) where a Loyalist is chosen for a vital mission and promised a sliver of Incarnate power in return as a reward for serving the empire, or a Resistance member is tasked to do some spy work and figure out if there's a way to siphon off some of that sweet Incarnate juice for themselves, resulting in them snatching a fragment of power along the way. Short, sweet and flavorful if someone wants to stick to purely Goldside, and then you have that requirement fulfilled by an in-game explanation.

Once you're talking about writing a new arc you've left the realm of "easy-to-add" content that this suggestion is supposed to occupy.

[huang3721]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

the plot doesn't really work unless your character is incarnate to boot

I think the Incarnate system is a plot hole. How come there are so many incarnates from Primal Earth, but almost none from Praetoria? Both worlds mirror each other, so if one world has such power, the other world must also have it in one way or another. 

[JKPhage]

Just now, huang3721 said:

I think the Incarnate system is a plot hole. How come there are so many incarnates from Primal Earth, but almost none from Praetoria? Both worlds mirror each other, so if one world has such power, the other world must also have it in one way or another. 

Eh, if you read the lore behind the iTrials and such it's mentioned that Tyrant is basically doling out Incarnate power to his various lieutenants and armies to give them an edge in the war on Primal. This is why they're able to even stay upright for more than a few seconds against our onslaught. The problem is that the devs never really intended for people to *stay* Praetorian for the whole run to 50 and remain there for the endgame, so there's no existing arc to explain how they gained power. It's very possible that a Loyalist was simply granted some measure of power that they are now able to grow on their own as a member of Cole's army, with Resistance spies among them being granted power as well, though pure Resistance who aren't spies are a little out in the cold, unless they were to introduce an arc as I suggested where they investigate and manage to snatch some fragment of power themselves.

 

Either way, it's established that Praetoria has it's own share of Incarnates, even that they're possibly more wide-spread than the Primals, but also implied that they might just be perma-stunted or currently underpowered because Cole only gave them a sliver of power so he wouldn't be outclassed in the long run. He gets to be the big man and the IDF gets just a tiny taste of power because they're rank and file, but he wants them to be decent canon fodder. Higher ups might get a bit more and be able to pursue further power on their own. Considering the various groups on Primal that have gained access to Incarnate power, it's entirely possible that there are still clandestine groups that have tapped into it on Praetoria. Hell, Cole tired to wipe out magic specifically because he didn't want anyone rediscovering the Well and gaining power like his, and the Riki canonically stunted and/or severed their connection to their own Well to avoid attack by Battalion. It's entirely possible that the Carnival of Light or the Ravenwing Cabal (what's left of it at least) might have a few members who have squirreled away such knowledge and are willing to dole it out to the right people if they know they have a noble cause.

 

The biggest issue is that there's no Praetorian-oriented content to spell this out or involve said Praetorians, because it was never intended to be a full-game path. Hell, the next official issue would have given us Kallisti Wharf, and that story definitively ended the Praetorian war with the arrival of Battalion and eventually brought Tyrant around to pose as Statesman as a symbol for people to rally behind. The Praetorian content was well and truly done until such time as they decided to deal with the aftermath and have us deal with a world conquered by Praetorian Hamidon, if and when that ever would have come about. HC devs have the capability of adding stuff like this, but it would take time and effort, and have to be prioritized over new power sets, new endgame content, new anything else essentially. That said, it might not be a bad idea, as devoting a page or two to making Praetoria into a full-fleshed 1-50 experience and giving them in-game lore and explanations for how they are able to become Incarnates and such would mean that we now have a viable third playthrough option. Expand the places Praetorians can go and maybe allow them to travel to Primal Earth without having to choose a hard new alignment (just treat Loyalists as Rogues and Resistance as Vigilantes) and suddenly there's a hell of a lot of fun to be had with a new experience that you don't have to jump through hoops and street sweep to experience.

[huang3721]

46 minutes ago, JKPhage said:

Cole tried to wipe out magic specifically because he didn't want anyone rediscovering the Well

Thanks for the info. So, this means any Praetorian *can* become an incarnate, albeit less likely than their primal Earth counterparts. Therefore according to the lore, there is nothing to stop them from doing the Number Six softy story arc.

Edit:

Curse you, gesture typing software!

Edited December 16, 2020 by huang3721

[Darmian]

Well, purely mechanically there are those of us who are playing Incarnate Goldsiders already.  How about this then? Along With Cole's doling out power somehow, when his access to the Well is cut during the Magisterium trial it is simply that, HIS access to the Well's power.  The Well isn't capped and that has to go somewhere!

 

OR...and I like this one better...the very advent of Portal technology means that power from the Primal Well is leaking into Praetoria, and that would account for other, earlier Incarnates arising, even if mechanically they wouldn't even have an Alpha slotted.

 

Though behind the scenes it is also mentioned that the Wells aren't the only way of becoming an "Incarnate", simply that "Incarnate" has become the eponym for such levels of power. They don't all stem from the Well. the Iron Man analogy is given I think (correct me if I'm wrong) where you spend your time being uber scientist and building your special super power armor, and then being told "it's not you, it's a all a magic puddle", wasn't sitting well with the original devs and they intended to address that.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Darmian

[Darmian]

36 minutes ago, JKPhage said:

the next official issue would have given us Kallisti Wharf, and that story definitively ended the Praetorian war with the arrival of Battalion and eventually brought Tyrant around to pose as Statesman as a symbol for people to rally behind.

Well, thankfully we didn't get that.  Bring on Kallisti Wharf but Battalion and Tyrant as States?  No thanks. I'm expecting the current team (when it finally does do something that big) to do better than that lame story.

[JKPhage]

1 hour ago, huang3721 said:

Thanks for the info. So, this means any Praetorian *can* become an incarnate, albeit less likely than their primal Earth counterparts. Therefore according to the lore, there is nothing to stop them from doing the Number Six softy story arc.

Exactly. Tyrant was chosen as the Well's champion, and as such he was able to draw on massive power, and also dole it out to others that he so chose. He was basically about to become a sort of avatar of the well. Likewise, imagine the later Incarnate Trials, like Lambda. Do you really think that Marauder could stand up to a several minutes long beatdown from 24+ hybrid-unlocked Incarnates, much less dish out an attack powerful enough to one-shot many of them if he didn't have a bit of Incarnate juice? Berry's super serum or no, you can't be that powerful without some manner of Incarnate ability. The devs also pointed out that our Hamidon is basically something akin to an Incarnate, but he kinda did it wrong, where the Praetorian Hamidon did it very *right*, hence his immense power and influence. They also kind of implied that he might have already gone that little step beyond and started on the path to becoming a font of power in his own right. Then consider the Knives of Vengeance. They're an Incarnate-level group, but in actuality they're simply the same old Knives of Artemis but assimilated/converted by the Talons of Vengeance, who are, you guessed it, agents of The Furies, who have a direct tie to the Well. There are any number of places that a Praetorian might stumble upon the secret to unlocking Incarnate power. Even on Primal Earth they've said outright that the well isn't the only way to power, just one of them. Hero 1 (and presumably Pendragon) was empowered as an Incarnate of similar power to States and Recluse when he pulled Excalibur. The Liberty Belt that Ms. Liberty (and Dominatrix) wears is in truth the Girdle of the Furies, which was gifted to her grandmother by the Furies, and grants power directly from the well. Trapdoor was empowered by an experiment using tainted water from the original Well of the Furies that doesn't exist anymore.

 

It's possible that a Praetorian could somehow stumble upon a sort of remnant of a Hamidon beast that has a lingering bit of power and somehow resonate with it to ascend. Or perhaps they were attacked in Night Ward by the Talons but interrupted before they could be converted, but that little touch of their power was all that was needed to alter them just enough and start them on the path. Maybe they're part of Cole's army and were granted a fragment of power that sparked stronger than Cole intended and now they're ascending on their own. And that's not even accounting for the fact that the Well might just choose to bestow them with a fraction of power, or they might not stumble upon some random ancient artifact that holds a link to the Well on their own. There are myriad ways it's possible, and the only reason it's not explicitly spelled out is simply because the intent was always that you would be on Primal Earth by that point, and if you weren't then you had no way to start on the Incarnate path outside grinding iTrials.

[Darmian]

^^Well explained 🙂

 

2 hours ago, JKPhage said:

such would mean that we now have a viable third playthrough option. Expand the places Praetorians can go and maybe allow them to travel to Primal Earth without having to choose a hard new alignment (just treat Loyalists as Rogues and Resistance as Vigilantes) and suddenly there's a hell of a lot of fun to be had with a new experience that you don't have to jump through hoops and street sweep to experience.

And this would be nice!