"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, parabola said:

We're clearly not going to agree on this. I just want to clarify though that I'm also talking about the alpha shift affecting all lv50 content. In many respects I see that as being a greater balance problem than the three shifts that can affect actual incarnate content. But as a whole I cannot see how the level shifts benefit the game inside incarnate content or otherwise.

Yeah I kinda agree with you there - alpha shift should be excluded from some lvl 50 content.

 

I would allow it on

Dark Astoria

Maria Jenkins Arc

Who Will Die Arc

Pandoras Box Arc

Shadow Shard - its already long enough without making it harder.

Tin Mage

Apex

Miss Liberty TF

Kahn TF

 

Of those that allow the lore and destiny shift I would leave that in place.

 

In may be missing some that should be on that list, but stuff like radios, and other minor contacts - Yeah no level shifts.  Theres no need for them.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

With regards to others effecting your game experience, this is 100% a thing in this MMO. We have had several examples in this thread talking about different levels of being "left in the dust" by just general teaming, to the point of many feeling like they're just doorsitting. 

 

It should be assumed that the basic gameplay should be using the tools given to us when able. Actively choosing NOT to use said tools is going against the basics of the game and should not be a "viable" solution.

[Haijinx]

I love how out of sync this conversation is.

 

People aren't arguing that Power Creep has rendered the normal game difficulty too easy.

 

They are arguing that it has made the MAXIMUM standard difficulty too easy.  

 

  

[Haijinx]

23 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I confess the argument that no power is actually overpowered, because you can always just not click or use it, leaves me without a response.

 

That's how all these "You can always pick no inspirations, No enhancements, etc" arguments sound from my perspective.  

[oedipus_tex]

Semi-related, because of the way the incarnate powers are coded, it does look like there's a way to fire a death ray or whatever that depowers the target and prevents them from using their incarnate abilities. The system would work kinda like how Jolting Chain remembers not to double back on an enemy it just hit. You could use whatever arbitrary targeting system, e.g. hit anyone who decides to try to Fly.

 

Now what kind of developer would do something like that? 

 

😎

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

With regards to others effecting your game experience, this is 100% a thing in this MMO. We have had several examples in this thread talking about different levels of being "left in the dust" by just general teaming, to the point of many feeling like they're just doorsitting. 

 

It should be assumed that the basic gameplay should be using the tools given to us when able. Actively choosing NOT to use said tools is going against the basics of the game and should not be a "viable" solution.

That isn't so much caused by level shifts though, but more knowingly teaming with greater powered team mates - to which either switch characters or switch teams - either way it's not something I encounter resistance from when I team and a lot of the times I run max diff stuff.

 

But the end result stems from either knowingly doorsitting and being ok with it or not knowing what you were getting into and wanting the game to change based on that - which isnt really fair to the ones you were teamed with when you have the option to leave that team - or develop your character to be better - which has been proven to not be difficult at all in this game.

 

If its the other swing of the content seeming too easy - then build a sg of like minded people.

 

Theres plenty of options - but to remove something what I percieve to be the majority enjoys based on my experiences - doesnt seem right, or fair.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I love how out of sync this conversation is.

 

People aren't arguing that Power Creep has rendered the normal game difficulty too easy.

 

They are arguing that it has made the MAXIMUM standard difficulty too easy.  

 

  

Anyone that thinks all the content is too easy - come team with me, i promise you - lol I'll find more than a few ways to kill you.

 

There is good quality content that has some teeth - what I have seen more often than not is the ones complaining about things being too easy are the ones too lazy to find and make the difficult runs.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Semi-related, because of the way the incarnate powers are coded, it does look like there's a way to fire a death ray or whatever that depowers the target and prevents them from using their incarnate abilities. The system would work kinda like how Jolting Chain remembers not to double back on an enemy it just hit. You could use whatever arbitrary targeting system, e.g. hit anyone who decides to try to Fly.

 

Now what kind of developer would do something like that? 

 

😎

Thats a feature in the magisterium - which if you added a difficulty option - call it incarnate - that added exotic enemies that could do that.  I would be all on board for that.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Anyone that thinks all the content is too easy - come team with me, i promise you - lol I'll find more than a few ways to kill you.

 

There is good quality content that has some teeth - what I have seen more often than not is the ones complaining about things being too easy are the ones too lazy to find and make the difficult runs.

You are actually suggesting people should have to hunt and search for challenging content on the Maximum standard difficulty setting?

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

You are actually suggesting people should have to hunt and search for challenging content on the Maximum standard difficulty setting?

Yeah, thats not what I said.

 

I'm saying there is content that even fully incarnate can challenge you - but often gets overlooked.

 

Granted there needs to be more of it, but i think that will come.

 

Reinventing the wheel by making content I have ran hundreds of times arbitrarily harder isn't the answer unless its an option we can occasionally choose - just like self gimping should be an acceptable alternative and compromise in the interim of new content and features coming out - rather than arbitrarily imposing your way on others that may not agree with you - when alternatives exist that both parties can get what they need by what the game already allows - its not like its hard to unslot Incarnates - or have a second build with SOs or hell DOs if you wanted.   lol

[Haijinx]

45 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I confess the argument that no power is actually overpowered, because you can always just not click or use it, leaves me without a response.

 

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah, thats not what I said.

 

I'm saying there is content that even fully incarnate can challenge you - but often gets overlooked.

 

Granted there needs to be more of it, but i think that will come.

 

Reinventing the wheel by making content I have ran hundreds of times arbitrarily harder isn't the answer unless its an option we can occasionally choose - just like self gimping should be an acceptable alternative and compromise in the interim of new content and features coming out - rather than arbitrarily imposing your way on others that may not agree with you - when alternatives exist that both parties can get what they need by what the game already allows - its not like its hard to unslot Incarnates - or have a second build with SOs or hell DOs if you wanted.   lol

 

47 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I confess the argument that no power is actually overpowered, because you can always just not click or use it, leaves me without a response.

 

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

 

 

That, is two completely unrelated responses - but you know this already cause your point is pretty darn hollow.   lol

[Apparition]

Dark Astoria was simply not meant to be challenging to veteran Incarnate players.  It just wasn’t.  It wasn’t meant for full teams either.  It was essentially meant as training wheels for Incarnate trials.  That is where the challenge is supposed to be.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Dark Astoria was simply not meant to be challenging to veteran Incarnate players.  It just wasn’t.  It wasn’t meant for full teams either.  It was essentially meant as training wheels for Incarnate trials.  That is where the challenge is supposed to be.

I think a lot of the issue with the percieved challenge chasm is we are too familiar with what content we have.

 

Most of us probably have tens of thousands of combined vet levels.

 

So we have mastered the content - where if it were unfamiliar content we would have a learning curve again.

 

Thats why I think the solution lies with an added difficulty option for exotic enemies that can throw you curve balls that can negate your powers.

 

Kinda like when the Federation first faced the Breen in the dominion war.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Infinitum

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I think a lot of the issue with the percieved challenge chasm is we are too familiar with what content we have.

 

Most oh us probably have tens of thousands of combined vet levels.

 

So we have master's the content - where if it were unfamiliar content we would have a learning curve again.

 

Thats why I think the solution lies with an added difficulty option for exotic enemies that can throw you curve balls that can negate your powers.

 

Kinda like when the Federation first faced the Breen in the dominion war.

Yep.  I have done a Lord Recluse SF with no enhancements, no temporary powers, players debuffed, mobs buffed... and it was cake.  That is due to years and years of my friends and I regularly playing red side and running the LRSF.  Not IO enhancements, since we didn’t use them.

[oedipus_tex]

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Dark Astoria was simply not meant to be challenging to veteran Incarnate players.  

 

 

I mean, City of Heroes server and client code was not meant to snuck out of the original developer's studios and released to the internet with a .ReadMe that states, in part "F them all." But here we are, working with what we've got.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Apparition said:

Yep.  I have done a Lord Recluse SF with no enhancements, no temporary powers, players debuffed, mobs buffed... and it was cake.  That is due to years and years of my friends and I regularly playing red side and running the LRSF.  Not IO enhancements, since we didn’t use them.

Yeah its like once you crack the code - you can always crack the code - even further refine the process to crack the code faster next time.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I mean, City of Heroes server and client code was not meant to snuck out of the original developer's studios and released to the internet with a .ReadMe that states, in part "F them all." But here we are, working with what we've got.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

You aren't even making a valid point or offering a solution or compromise there.

 

And don't retort back negate level shifts in DA because that's still a hard pass from me.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

To be honest I was always curious why they allowed sub 50s in the zone. If it's incarnate content then keep it as incarnate content.

Dark Astoria is available to sub-50s so we can use the Dark Astoria Base portal to get to one corner of Talos Island on Citadel TFs.

 

To have to run all the way across Talos Island would be self-gimping.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

Dark Astoria is available to sub-50s so we can use the Dark Astoria Base portal to get to one corner of Talos Island on Citadel TFs.

 

To have to run all the way across Talos Island would be self-gimping.

Dang, I have never thought about that.

 

That is brilliant.

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Dang, I have never thought about that.

 

That is brilliant.

There is no guarantee that any particular Talos Island mission door on Citadel's TF will spawn close to the Dark Astoria gate, but when it does it is usually after the team has exhausted their Team Teleporter. I will often pop there after the "Defeat Council in Independence Port" mission.

[Haijinx]

You are actively encouraged to use IOs in this game.  There are popups and everything.  There were even missions, maybe still are.  

 

You are actively encouraged to use Incarnate powers in this game.  There are popups and everything.  There are missions.  

 

So you build your character, the way you are actively encouraged to.  And at some point your character becomes so powerful, that most (almost all) of the opposition you encounter is pathetically weak by comparison.  Sappers? lulz.  A whole horde of +3 Elite Bosses? Don't make me laugh.  Another Archvillian?  Please.   

 

Yes I get that a lot of people like things that way.  But really I think that its bad for the health of the game, as a game.  This is the only MMO I've ever played where I have ZERO fear of ANY content.  I used to.   I remember whole team wipes being common in this game.  It could be really hard if you ran into groups like Arachnos, or Malta or whatever. 

 

Ah well.  This is probably why I find that I'm logging on less and less, and keep finding reasons to put off building any new characters projects.    

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

You are actively encouraged to use IOs in this game.  There are popups and everything.  There were even missions, maybe still are.  

 

You are actively encouraged to use Incarnate powers in this game.  There are popups and everything.  There are missions.  

 

So you build your character, the way you are actively encouraged to.  And at some point your character becomes so powerful, that most (almost all) of the opposition you encounter is pathetically weak by comparison.  Sappers? lulz.  A whole horde of +3 Elite Bosses? Don't make me laugh.  Another Archvillian?  Please.   

 

Yes I get that a lot of people like things that way.  But really I think that its bad for the health of the game, as a game.  This is the only MMO I've ever played where I have ZERO fear of ANY content.  I used to.   I remember whole team wipes being common in this game.  It could be really hard if you ran into groups like Arachnos, or Malta or whatever. 

 

Ah well.  This is probably why I find that I'm logging on less and less, and keep finding reasons to put off building any new characters projects.    

Yeah you are describing the need for new content, and a difficulty option for exotic enemies.

 

Even without that currently it takes a lot for me to not log in as I described above. lol

 

Because I like being super - at the end of the day I'm here to be powerful and sometimes I mighty radial AP hellions just to show them who is boss

 

Because I can.  lol

[oedipus_tex]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

You are actively encouraged to use IOs in this game.  There are popups and everything.  There were even missions, maybe still are.  

 

You are actively encouraged to use Incarnate powers in this game.  There are popups and everything.  There are missions.  

 

So you build your character, the way you are actively encouraged to.  And at some point your character becomes so powerful, that most (almost all) of the opposition you encounter is pathetically weak by comparison.  Sappers? lulz.  A whole horde of +3 Elite Bosses? Don't make me laugh.  Another Archvillian?  Please.   

 

Yes I get that a lot of people like things that way.  But really I think that its bad for the health of the game, as a game.  This is the only MMO I've ever played where I have ZERO fear of ANY content.  I used to.   I remember whole team wipes being common in this game.  It could be really hard if you ran into groups like Arachnos, or Malta or whatever. 

 

Ah well.  This is probably why I find that I'm logging on less and less, and keep finding reasons to put off building any new characters projects.    

 

 

I still think Homecoming has some brilliant designers and they've shown at least a partial willingness to review old systems. I agree though that overall interest has waned a lot. I used to be a team player, just don't enjoy it with the way things work right now. I can solo of course, but would rather do it on a private server where I can adjust mechanics to my liking and no one can type back in all caps.

Edited March 1, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah you are describing the need for new content, and a difficulty option for exotic enemies.

 

Even without that currently it takes a lot for me to not log in as I described above. lol

 

Because I like being super - at the end of the day I'm here to be powerful and sometimes I mighty radial AP hellions just to show them who is boss

 

Because I can.  lol

Just curious, but if you are a superhero fan, I imagine you are a Superman fan?  Thor?  Etc.  

 

Me.  I prefer the gritty street level stuff that is set in Gotham.   Generally not the main title Batman stuff though, since he too is too much of a boring invincible sue.  The off title Batman stuff though I like.   

 

I'm not against powered heroes.  But I want Superheroes that can LOSE.  That struggle against unimaginable odds.  The under dog.   The scrappy kid that is struggling to do something because Captain Super Amazing and his Superbros didn't understand the danger.   And so forth.