Blaster Buff: Tier one immobilization of secondary sets

[atletikus]

I've had a blast with Blasters for the high-risk high-reward aspect, even though it may not as strong an AT as others. The AT got some much needed love, but I felt the changes neglected to address a problem with most of the tier one powers of the old secondary power sets (though the new sets tier one tends to be much better). These are the powers you *have* to take, yet are often so weak - they are unused or under-slotted.

 

• Primarily, remove the annoying knockback/up protection *buff to enemies* of all the immobilizations similar to /Dark, /Mental, and /Ninja as this negate the knockback you want and rely on as a very squishy blaster. EDIT: To sum up my second post; this could preferably be changed from knockback to knockdown.
   
  
• Secondarily, double the speed of the DoT to about 5 secs (similar to Electron Shackles of /Atomic), but reduce the immobilization duration to the same amount. Balance as needed (/Fire). This would give Blasters a power that is both a viable tool for damage AND mitigation and would make the sets who currently don't enjoy decent tier one powers a little more attractive.
  

 

There are several powers who need a little love to be brought into the new meta, but that's for another time.

[_NOPE_]

You mean, still make them immobilized but allow them to be knocked around? Or just take away the immobilize?

 

I don't think you can do the former. And you'd have to talk to a LOT of Blaster mains to convince them of the latter.

 

For a lot, range is its own defense/protection, because ranged attacks usually do far less damage than melee attacks from enemies.

[atletikus]

You mean, still make them immobilized but allow them to be knocked around? Or just take away the immobilize?

 

I don't think you can do the former. And you'd have to talk to a LOT of Blaster mains to convince them of the latter.

 

For a lot, range is its own defense/protection, because ranged attacks usually do far less damage than melee attacks from enemies.

 

The proposed change is primarily just to remove the KB protection compartment of the immobilization (or make it so that all knockback become knockdown instead) as it's basically a buff to the enemy and is really counter to what you want as a Blaster. Think a hybrid between Electron Shackles and Subdual that does the same but allows you to further mitigate damage by combining immobilization and knockbacks. Your powers wouldn't be at odds with each others.

 

The other suggestion would reverse the focus of the power from immobilization to damage. Damage would be the primary effect with immobilization as a secondary effect. Damage would be the same (probably with a tweak to /Fire as it's breaking the mold), but twice as fast, immobilization would be either twice as short or even reduced to match the DoT time from about 17 secs to 5 secs.

[_NOPE_]

I don't think you can have immobilize without "KB protection", because it's IMMOBILIZE... as in... can't move...

 

But I don't know for sure... I haven't looked at that part of those powers yet... maybe in a couple of hours I'll have an easy answer for you, maybe not. But it might be fundamental to how immobilize works.

[Galaxy Brain]

I don't think you can have immobilize without "KB protection", because it's IMMOBILIZE... as in... can't move...

 

But I don't know for sure... I haven't looked at that part of those powers yet... maybe in a couple of hours I'll have an easy answer for you, maybe not. But it might be fundamental to how immobilize works.

 

I know that there are certain immobs that dont prevent knockback. The immobilize just prevents movement by the target, it has to have an actual rooting component (knockback protection) to prevent outside forces from moving them

[_NOPE_]

Do you have a ParagonWiki link to those specific powers for reference?

[Galaxy Brain]

Do you have a ParagonWiki link to those specific powers for reference?

 

Paragon wiki is giving a bad gateway error, but immobilized status does not inherently get rid of knockback on all immobs. I do clearly recall being able to immobilize and knock down certain enemies here and there, or even push them around.

[n00baka]

I did a little digging, because I remembered picking Gravity to pair with Storm specifically so I could knock foes down while Immobilizing them and this is what I found:

 

Gravity Control: Crush

Fire Control: Ring of Fire

 

Specifically, Gravity Control doesn't have the -Knockback, while Ring of Fire does. But for most powers, it is pretty standard for the Immobilize to have -Knockback.

[_NOPE_]

Okay, so they CAN be separated. Good to know, thanks.

[n00baka]

I don't really have a dog in this fight personally, but I feel like the original reasoning for having most Immobilizes contain some anti-Knockback measures is because Immobilize and KB together is kind of a poor man's Hold. I'm not personally opposed to discussing if it is still a viable option, or if it's current status should be maintained. But I do think it's important to consider WHY the developers originally set something like that up and placed a restriction that makes playing harder.

[Erydanus]

There's a reason for the knock protection that went in to a bunch of immobs in one pass. I'm really sketchy but it Happened For A Reason and when it did a BUNCH of controllers were not happy with it, but the OG Devs stuck to their guns. The blasters chimed in at that point too and some loved it and some hated it. But the OGD were like, "discussion over, it's going to be this way." Maybe someone can wayback that exchange...

[_NOPE_]

I always felt like Range = Defense was the reason, but perhaps I'm wrong.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

First off, only BAD blasters do not take and invest in top mods for their first 3 powers. Because even the mod dmg CC ability will when well buffed be very good dmg.

 

My standard single target boss kill chain has been since they changed defiance way back to those 3 powers that can be used even while under CC effects. Ive used them to single handed burn down AVs in incarnate trials back in the old days.

 

They do not need to be altered or tweaked, Players need to learn to make full advantage of what is there rather then thinking blaster must aoe all the time.

 

A blaster gets many attack powers. I usually have several on a different power bar for single target, and the aoe ones on another for mass mob killing.

 

I suggest take the first 3 attacks, then take plenty of pool powers as soon as you can, many are very useful to blasters.

 

If you just feel blaster isnt right for you, then try a corruptor or sentinal. botha re near enough blaster dps, and much hardier without effort.

[atletikus]

I don't really have a dog in this fight personally, but I feel like the original reasoning for having most Immobilizes contain some anti-Knockback measures is because Immobilize and KB together is kind of a poor man's Hold. I'm not personally opposed to discussing if it is still a viable option, or if it's current status should be maintained. But I do think it's important to consider WHY the developers originally set something like that up and placed a restriction that makes playing harder.

 

You're right about the poor mans hold. I don't think it's important to consider the reasons though considering the fact Blasters were allowed to be debt collectors extraordinaire for years before they finally took steps to rectify their design decisions (albeit neglecting touching on the old immobilization). There is a reason why the newer secondaries /Dark and /Mental immobilization both do not have the KB protection; both primary counterparts offer KB powers, so it was easy for the devs to foresee the conflicting powers. I can't simply conceive of a way any Blaster at all would want to give the enemy KB protection; Blasters live or die by damage and active mitigation such as KB. It's simply sloppy work and the meta has long since left it behind. 

[Adeon Hawkwood]

To the OP I'm going to say no, please don't. I play an AR/Dev Blaster and while I generally like knockback there are times when it would be a problem. I use Web Grenade for the -kb protection almost as often as I use it because I want to immobilize something.

 

I think the current system is fine, we've got four sets (Darkness, Ninja, Mental and Temporal) where the immobilize doesn't have kb protection and two sets (Energy and Martial) that have a knockback power instead of an immobilize so basically half of the secondaries have an immobilize with kb protection and half don't.

 

First off, only BAD blasters do not take and invest in top mods for their first 3 powers. Because even the mod dmg CC ability will when well buffed be very good dmg.

Not Devices Blasters. Web Grenade doesn't deal damage so there's no point slotting it for that although it's still worth slotting up a bit for accuracy and immobilize duration.

[atletikus]

First off, only BAD blasters do not take and invest in top mods for their first 3 powers. Because even the mod dmg CC ability will when well buffed be very good dmg.

 

A bold statement that immediately revealed to me your only experience is with /Fire blasters! /Fire is afforded an OP immobilization that offers +50% DMG over all others. If anything, while other immobilizations would need a little love, Ring of Fire should be brought in line with the others. Compare the damage of Arctic and Pyre immobilizations of the newer Brute ancillary pools. Fire is offered +10% dmg for lack of any mitigation, which is where it should be (IO builds can substantially lessen the need for any mitigation through powers anyway). How is Subdual or Penumbral Grasp anywhere near very good damage? 1.67 sec cast time for 62 dmg over 9.2 secs is weak-sauce. I would argue Atomic is also viable due to it's quicker 4.7 sec DoT (but would benefit from removing the KB prot).

 

I suggest you try to see outside your own limited experience.

[atletikus]

To the OP I'm going to say no, please don't. I play an AR/Dev Blaster and while I generally like knockback there are times when it would be a problem. I use Web Grenade for the -kb protection almost as often as I use it because I want to immobilize something.

Name me an instance you want the KB protection? I can't think of any, or at least those instances would be few and far between compared to the times you would want your target to fall flat on its ass. Devices use the immobilization for the amazing -RECH which floors the damage output as much or more than immobilization anyway.

 

I think the current system is fine, we've got four sets (Darkness, Ninja, Mental and Temporal) where the immobilize doesn't have kb protection and two sets (Energy and Martial) that have a knockback power instead of an immobilize so basically half of the secondaries have an immobilize with kb protection and half don't.

 

No, it's not fine. Only Fire/ and Ice/ primaries do not have knockback powers (but even they have access to KB through Nemesis staff and such) and there are a great deal of power set combinations which these powers are at direct odds with one another. Since you have no choice in picking the tier one secondary, this needlessly limits your choices unless you're not concerned about such conflicts.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

To the OP I'm going to say no, please don't. I play an AR/Dev Blaster and while I generally like knockback there are times when it would be a problem. I use Web Grenade for the -kb protection almost as often as I use it because I want to immobilize something.

Name me an instance you want the KB protection? I can't think of any, or at least those instances would be few and far between compared to the times you would want your target to fall flat on its ass. Devices use the immobilization for the amazing -RECH which floors the damage output as much or more than immobilization anyway.

When fighting on ledges (such as circle of thorns maps), when I'm fighting two spawns near each other and want to avoid knocking an enemy into a second group, stuff like that. Also please note that I didn't say I wanted knockback protection as often as the knockback, I said I wanted the knockback protection as often as I wanted the immobilize. So yes, I generally prefer to have knockback but I also view knockback protection as a critical part of Web Grenade.

 

Honestly that's why I love Web Grenade, it's so flexible and multifunctional. Need to bring a sky raider down into melee range? Web Grenade. Need to immobilize an AV so he stops running around? Web Grenade. Want to debuff a bosses recharge? Web Grenade. Want to make sure I don't knock Rikti off the catwalks in the abandoned sewer trial? Web Grenade.

 

So yes, Web Grenade is a lovely, multi-faceted utility tool and you are literally requesting to remove one aspect of that functionality. Given that the number of times when I want to avoid knocking down a non-immobilized enemy greatly exceed the number of times I want to knockdown an immobilized enemy I'd much rather keep the kb protection.

 

I think the current system is fine, we've got four sets (Darkness, Ninja, Mental and Temporal) where the immobilize doesn't have kb protection and two sets (Energy and Martial) that have a knockback power instead of an immobilize so basically half of the secondaries have an immobilize with kb protection and half don't.

 

No, it's not fine. Only Fire/ and Ice/ primaries do not have knockback powers (but even they have access to KB through Nemesis staff and such) and there are a great deal of power set combinations which these powers are at direct odds with one another. Since you have no choice in picking the tier one secondary, this needlessly limits your choices unless you're not concerned about such conflicts.

I would argue exactly the opposite, removing the knockback protection is limiting choices. I like having the ability to shutdown my knockback when it would be an issue, if you remove the kb protection then you're removing my ability to make that tactical decision.

 

So yes, if you don't want the option for kb protection that's fine you can pick one of the six sets that don't have it but don't try to force your choice on everyone else.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

considering there is a thread at this moment debating on wanting KB pretty much torn out of the game, OP you may need to recognize that to many KB is the issue not keeping an enemy in place.

[srmalloy]

First off, only BAD blasters do not take and invest in top mods for their first 3 powers. Because even the mod dmg CC ability will when well buffed be very good dmg.

Not Devices Blasters. Web Grenade doesn't deal damage so there's no point slotting it for that although it's still worth slotting up a bit for accuracy and immobilize duration.

Or Energy Manipulation's Power Thrust, which is perfectly fine as a "Get the hell away from me!" power with just an Accuracy in its base slot.

 

Of course, slotting it to max the KB boost and going to Atlas Park for some Hellion Golf is always a laugh.

 

[atletikus]

When fighting on ledges (such as circle of thorns maps), when I'm fighting two spawns near each other and want to avoid knocking an enemy into a second group, stuff like that. Also please note that I didn't say I wanted knockback protection as often as the knockback, I said I wanted the knockback protection as often as I wanted the immobilize. So yes, I generally prefer to have knockback but I also view knockback protection as a critical part of Web Grenade.

 

Or you could do like most people who want to negate most of this issue; simply position yourself better. The game has 3D and you can jump, hover or change angle. Anyway, yours is a fringe case compared to the conflicts that I'm addressing. But really, this is besides the point as I suggested turning the knockback into knockdown, but to keep the rooting.

 

From today's patch notes; the devs have done exactly what I requested as the main issue, but for two ATs who combined have far less such conflicting powers and far less need of KB as a mitigating tool than Blasters. Time for the change to come the way of Blasters.

 

• Immobilize Powers in Controller and Dominator primary power sets should no longer make their targets immune to KnockUp. KnockBack will be converted to KnockDown. This helps sets like Ice and Earth, as their AOE Immobilize power will no longer make their AOE Knockback power useless.