Random thoughts on leveraging the AE for tip-like missions. Cross-posting.

[Darmian]

It's a bit quiet in the Mission Architect section so I'm reposting this cross link here.

 

The original post IS a bit rambly. I'm still thinking about how to streamline it.  There can be discussions about what could be in it, strict lore/canon guidelines, etc.  That's frankly all for later.  Right now I'm just looking at Avatar in a zone/AE in Base Computer/5 doors.

 

 

[DougGraves]

People do make fantastic arcs in AE.  The problem is finding them amidst all of the farms.

[Darmian]

5 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

People do make fantastic arcs in AE.  The problem is finding them amidst all of the farms.

That's true.  And yeah, finding them is the thing.  I know what I proposing here is really only a "halfway house" sort of thing, but it's a possible start maybe?

[Darmian]

Obviously a point for later, but if an AE was set in the Shadow Shard for instance, amongst other odd places, then perhaps this system would need tweaking/additions.  I'm really looking at it as a building block to getting more content into the game world without (apparently) excessive new coding.

[BurtHutt]

I did a number of posts that discussed, in depth, my idea to use AE and add those missions to the regular game. I was told the idea was feasible but I've never heard back from Devs to see if it could be added to game. It would be a system where you would have strict guidelines to what players could create and then pick from those submissions. It was an idea where Devs could, basically, drag and drop AE content into the regular game and make it canon. 

 

There isn't much new content being added (missions and things to do etc) so this idea seems like a no-brainer. However, I haven't been told if it will happen or if it won't or if there are some other issues. It's too bad cuz it would add a nice new wrinkle to the game and give us lots of radio/paper level missions (tons could be added potentially and it wouldn't seem quite as repetitive as it is now......I mean, how many times can a guy go after the P.L.O.T. device?! lol).

[Darmian]

7 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I did a number of posts that discussed, in depth, my idea to use AE and add those missions to the regular game. I was told the idea was feasible but I've never heard back from Devs to see if it could be added to game. It would be a system where you would have strict guidelines to what players could create and then pick from those submissions. It was an idea where Devs could, basically, drag and drop AE content into the regular game and make it canon. 

 

There isn't much new content being added (missions and things to do etc) so this idea seems like a no-brainer. However, I haven't been told if it will happen or if it won't or if there are some other issues. It's too bad cuz it would add a nice new wrinkle to the game and give us lots of radio/paper level missions (tons could be added potentially and it wouldn't seem quite as repetitive as it is now......I mean, how many times can a guy go after the P.L.O.T. device?! lol).

Yup yup. Thoroughly agree on your posts and with the intent.  Above (& cross posted) I am looking at a barest of bones mechanic to leverage all that into the game with the least amount of work, so that your "drag and drop" could just be implemented. LOL. Now, "least amount of work" is an assumption on my part, but I can't see HOW it could be as much work as Holymittens' mini arcs in 2019.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Darmian

[Darmian]

Based on further chats around this proposed mechanic I've had the following tweaks suggested to me, and I like them but like anything here are up for discussion.

 

1) These missions to have an intro tip drop at the correct level range as a prequel, like Mortimer Kal's Wizard's Weakness. Doing that unlocks the contact avatar in whatever area they're located.

 

2) Contact avatars not to be a green glowing AE type but just to look like a generic NPC, and then to morph to the arc's actual contact when the mission is selected.

 

2) Contact avatars when in generic form to reel off exactly how to use this entire system in the first place!

 

4) Apply the 5 doors needed in the correct zone.

 

5) If you want to bypass the intro tip then the main arc to be available via the base computer like regular tips already are.

 

Variations on this: The initial tip to appear in the Police Scanner/Newspaper/Gold equivalent (Message Man/Clockwork).

 

Some discussion on the places I've suggested as avatar placement areas are that the Red and Blue versions are a bit out of the way.  Studio 55 is pretty central to Gold though.

 

Again, we're just looking at leveraging existing assets. As I've said elsewhere, the actual arcs themselves are a whole other kettle of fish to discuss.

 

Thoughts?

Edited February 18, 2021 by Darmian

[Darmian]

Further chats have suggested leveraging the Information kiosks all over Paragon as an option to access the console if someone doesn't have a base computer, or possibly the phone boxes all over the Rogue Isles.  Praetoria doesn't have either of those but again there are dedicated Clockwork Vendors for other stuff so...

[DougGraves]

I really like the idea of just putting AE contacts out in the world.  The KR arcs have people you talk to who teleport you to a mission, so that is in game already. 

[Darmian]

31 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I really like the idea of just putting AE contacts out in the world.  The KR arcs have people you talk to who teleport you to a mission, so that is in game already. 

That's another addition!

 

[Clave Dark 5]

I'm not exactly sure why these still can't all be houses inside the AE system as-is?  Or maybe set up a special kiosk inside the AE buildings for it, plus giving "normal" rewards instead of tickets or whatever.  I mean, it'd be great to be outside in the real world, but just think of the continuity headaches everything might generate when the new devs want to set up an arc with Clockwork being taken over by Carnies (or whatever else you might come up with) - inevitably someone somewhere would pop up to point out that this contradicts something from a player arc that was added to [name a contact].  Best to keep them all safely walled off behind "this is just a what-if/elseworlds deal, which is good enough to be recognized, but not to be taken as god's own truth."

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I'm not exactly sure why these still can't all be houses inside the AE system as-is?  Or maybe set up a special kiosk inside the AE buildings for it, plus giving "normal" rewards instead of tickets or whatever.  I mean, it'd be great to be outside in the real world, but just think of the continuity headaches everything might generate when the new devs want to set up an arc with Clockwork being taken over by Carnies (or whatever else you might come up with) - inevitably someone somewhere would pop up to point out that this contradicts something from a player arc that was added to [name a contact].  Best to keep them all safely walled off behind "this is just a what-if/elseworlds deal, which is good enough to be recognized, but not to be taken as god's own truth."

Well I had assumed they'd keep track of what AE arcs are released into the wild, so to speak! This isn't supposed to generate just any of the missions in the AE in the outside world, that would be counterproductive to the devs genuinely moving the plot forward. Anything that would be used like this would need to be vetted to be equivalent to the current tip mission level at least, and quite possibly if you wrote an AE they liked but a part contradicted some of their plans they could either not port it into this mechanic or ask you to redo that part of it.

 

The notion that this could be a What if/Elseworlds deal is also nice.  Might require a different sort of intro, like a standard script for a narrator that informs you of that and then leads into the story.

[Clave Dark 5]

See, that the thing with obsessive continuity: after a while it hampers you from telling some stories or forces you to contort things to them fit, without realizing that you're cutting yourself off from that in the future.  To really take a fan-made thing and insert it into "real time" would take a lot of going over to make sure it:

1. conforms to pre-existing lore
2. doesn't violate any copyright ("Who's this 'Bat Guy" character, and why's he blowing up this 'Dead-Star' thing?") that you might not even have even heard of yourself
3. and make sure it doesn't send the character or story down a lane that you don't really want to follow too far

This is a lot.  Easier to leave the story in the sandbox, but flag it "special."  Besides, moving "the only good stuff to come out of AE" is admitting defeat.  Make it relevant! 

[Darmian]

32 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

See, that the thing with obsessive continuity: after a while it hampers you from telling some stories or forces you to contort things to them fit, without realizing that you're cutting yourself off from that in the future.  To really take a fan-made thing and insert it into "real time" would take a lot of going over to make sure it:

1. conforms to pre-existing lore
2. doesn't violate any copyright ("Who's this 'Bat Guy" character, and why's he blowing up this 'Dead-Star' thing?") that you might not even have even heard of yourself
3. and make sure it doesn't send the character or story down a lane that you don't really want to follow too far

This is a lot.  Easier to leave the story in the sandbox, but flag it "special."  Besides, moving "the only good stuff to come out of AE" is admitting defeat.  Make it relevant! 

Ok, we're obviously coming at this from different angles LOL.  Either you have continuity or you don't. We have inconsistencies here and there in the game - mainly from OG devs either not speaking to each other, not passing on notes, people leaving and things not continuing, plenty of stuff - but we do have continuity and we know where the current end line is and that I would leave in the hands of the current devs (please please please don't implement the half thought out nonsense in the AMA about Batallion/Dimensionless!).

 

1. How is going through an already written AE (or many) and checking if it conforms to pre existing Lore/doesn't contradict pre existing Lore, more time consuming that the level of work Piecemeal put into their recent output?  It simply cannot be. 

2. A tester GM team would never do this solo, checks and balances, "is this guy a rip off?  Or is it an homage like Joe Freitag?" Again, how could that take more work than what went into what we recently got?

3. I'm unsure as to what you mean here.

 

As to moving "the only good stuff to come out of AE" somehow admitting defeat?  Of what thought? The Devs' ability to produce more content on a faster timetable?  Possibly!  Or admitting the failure of anything that doesn't make it out of the AE? Again, I'll disagree. There's plenty of stuff that's crazy fun and good that would never fit in the actual game world, not to mention the stupid amount of farms. And I've played a fair number of players' origin tales that are damn good but frankly you wouldn't see them ever in the game.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Darmian

[Clave Dark 5]

1.  That's the point, it's time consuming.  Keeping them within the AE means little needed.

2.  See point 1.  And your five, ten devs might still not know my story ripped off some short film made in Japan five years ago or something.

3.  You get points of "Batman just up and killed this guy in this otherwise solid story.  Do we allow that?  Would he ever?  Do we let it slide, encourage this sort of thing, pretend it never happened later?  What sort of story do we have planned for him in the future?  Might this drive the direction of stories we can or can't tell with him, if we're allowing him to be a killer now?"  Etc.

 

Easier to just set them aside as "good stories to play", but they don't have to be canon by any means.  Don't water down your main story.

[Darmian]

1. Yes there will be some time consumed, no doubt about it. Still a lot less than it took Piecemeal to build their recent releases.  And that's the point.

2. Valid. Maybe they wouldn't. Then apart from them assessing all that's already in there, it could be a clean slate project going forward.  Here's the parameters, stick to this, no this, not that, please include a whatever, and if we like it when we test it then in it goes.

3. By "Batman" can I assume you're saying "Positron/Synapse/Liberty" can't be seen to act outside a remit defined for their character (or even possible growth of their character, because Manticore is barely a step away from being full Vigilante), so if they're in one of these they have to be used in certain defined ways? That's perfectly reasonable to ask for.  Again, that's my reading of your sentence and I may be wrong.

 

Finally, putting them aside as "good stories to play" but they don't have to be canon?  Fine with that!  In fact most actual tips (apart from a few that introduce other things) can themselves be dropped into this category. I also don't think stopping muggers in Atlas park and street sweeping is technically "canon", but it happens in the actual game world.

 

Ultimately there's a need I think - you may differ on this - of delivering "new" content of whatever length into the game world faster than we have been getting it. And I love the AE, I do.  It's a part of the game experience for me to go through other people's stories, to write my own, but we're still stuck in the unrealness of the AE simulation effect. This doesn't affect farms one bit, they will continue to be pumped out ad nauseum and continue to thrive.  In fact if this were ONLY to move story AEs into the real world via the avatars/computer/doors mechanic I mentioned and still have them effectively be "as is" from the AE, not canon, don't water down the story, a What if/Elsewords tale, then that would work too.  I just don't know how you would prevent anyone sticking a farm in the real world without Dev oversight.  They are recruiting AE community officers/liaisons right now though, so that could be a thing for them?

 

There's tons of lore and stories in this game, it would take a while for a single player to get through it all, but with new content coming once a year - and I'm not denigrating the amount of care and skill and work it takes to do those - that will be played in a few hours tops, well, that's not going to cut it.  

[Clave Dark 5]

7 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Still a lot less than it took Piecemeal to build their recent releases.

I'd disagree on that.  I don't know who or what Piecemeal is, but I don't think that would affect anything, feel free to correct otherwise.

 

Batman was placeholder for any character, yes.  Don't get hung up on examples!

 

You want more content?  It's already here in the AE as you said.  What else really needs to be done with it past Dev Choice?  I never argued against Dev Choice.

 

 

[Darmian]

Piecmeal built the recent (November) releases of "The Graveyard Shift" for Blue side,

And "The Freakish Lab of Dr. Vahzilok" for Red side.

 

So I'd disagree right back atcha on the level of time consumption involved there 🙂 

 

These are two biggish releases and were the first story releases since the previous September when Holymittens' two smaller Rogue/Vigilante arcs became HC's first real new story content for the game.

 

 

 

I promise not to get hung up!  I was merely seeking clarity because it's so easy for us (or anyone) to misunderstand something someone has written, or read it in a tone the writer never intended. So me asking for further clarity is trying to aid my understanding rather than anything else.

 

Yep.  I agree there's plenty of content in the AE, from amazing to just god awful, but it's there. And I like the Dev Choice (I would do, I won one!) But when you do have this resource generating content, why not use it to generate content into the game world?

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Darmian