Energy Melee interactions with Energy Focus (new passive)

[Sancerre]

Hi all, i want to preface that i fully understand that the energy melee powerset new Energy Focus passive does not 'need' a unique interaction with every single ability.  Further, i understand scrappers and stalkers have the possibility of grabbing the double focus from a 'crit' and some folks might enjoy being able to still press specific buttons and 'store' that extra charge for a 2nd energy transfer...  finally, the powerset is in a very strong spot now for single target.

 

that said it seems like a lost opportunity to implement Energy Focus only half-way.  my goal would be to make the powerset more synergistic, generally... instead of just only caring about buffing energy transfer and ignoring the entirety of Energy Focus otherwise.  ultimately please keep in mind that even with my suggested changes here you will not be able to spam Energy Focus empowered attacks non-stop.  they are still going to be limited use... and any stacks you have will get used up very quickly... so strategic use of the Energy Focus will allow you to adapt to the situation at hand.

 

Change #1: Provide a raw 10-15% _base_ energy damage bonus (similar to fiery embrace) to any attack that is empowered with Energy Focus... with the caveat that Energy transfer is already amazing (maybe dont modify that one.. but i am suggesting a change to build up here, so maybe its OK?). 

 

• Barrage:  Bump the regen debuff to at least -250%... Replace the Stun with -recharge or -damage debuff.  Hate to cite pay2win powers here but envenomed dagger is -250% and very cheap... the empowered attack should at least be able to compete with that.
• Energy Punch:  -resistance(20%?)/-defense(10%?) proc.  this one will probably be controversial... not sure how much would be 'too much'... just suggesting numbers as the 'offensive debuffer' power.
• Bone Smasher:  place the 100% Mag 3 stun in here (complimenting bone smashers already high chance to stun).  this one might be a little weak, but holds are very powerful.
• Build Up:  lower the damage buff and give 2 or 3 Energy Focus on activation... also rename for flair (like other powersets that dont have standard build up).
• Power Crash:  Yes the target cap is increased but it is still a 7 range cone.  increase the range to 10 while under the effects of Energy Focus.  As it is, it feels pointless to even mention that it increases the target cap because its already hard enough to hit 5 targets with it.
• Taunt/Confront/Placate -- no need to modify these powers specifically.
• Whirling Hands:  increase the range of whirling hands to at least 10 under the effects of Energy Focus... also maybe add a knockup or slow.
• Total Focus -- i might suggest moving it to t7 at _latest_ for all of the melee.  would feel bad if all of the synergy is just not available until so 'late'.  also, to be clear with my proposed changes, total focus should absolutely _only_ be an Energy Focus BUILDER and _never_ a spender.
• Energy Transfer -- excellent concept here, nothing to change.
• **STALKER SPECIFIC** Assassin's Strike -- does not use Energy Focus, do not modify... as with any other stalker powerset.

 

overall i think it would spice up the leveling process and also create a more engaging and flexible level 50 build once you have a ton of recharge to utilize the extra Energy Focus from proposed build-up more often.  Again getting away from the tunnel vision of maximizing DPA on energy transfer (it would still be a great use of Energy Focus)

 

Thank you for reading.

[siolfir]

As someone who does not like the Energy Focus mechanic and never wanted it in the first place, I would not like to see these changes, and would not like to pay the price elsewhere for buffing the existing consumers.

 

We have now each expressed our diametrically opposed opinions, each of which is as valid as the other. Since you'll never convince me that your proposal is a good idea, there's not much discussion that hasn't already been said in a variety of older, pre-EM-buff threads. At least you didn't propose adding focus consumption back to Bone Smasher after it was moved to Barrage, so running your attack chain didn't feel like a penalty if Energy Transfer misses. Edit: oops, missed the line about Bone Smasher.

Edited June 21, 2021 by siolfir

[Razor Cure]

On 6/19/2021 at 11:36 AM, Sancerre said:

Energy Focus passive does not 'need' a unique interaction with every single ability

..and yet you propose changes to every power, bar taunt? I assume you do not mean make ALL changes listed..but still!

 

Bump the -regen on barrage? WHY? It is the only melee attack (only attack, full stop?) in game that does -regen. Also, anyone can get the Envenomed Dagger. Anyone. This argument is like saying Stamina needs to be buffed for everyone, just because Recovery Serum exists.

 

Energy punch getting -def or res? Again, why? The -def makes zero (less than zero) sense at all, and while the -res would be amazing, it would also be broken with how hard the set already hits!

 

Bone Smasher with a 100% stun? Again, come on. Its already a great stun, in a set loaded with them. I have frequently stunned an AV, with just 'my' mez attacks. More overkill.

 

Build up: Lower the buff? How about no. You can already get Energy Focus super easy and fairly fast from Total Focus, AND you get it even if the attack misses.

 

Whirling Hands. Increase the radius? Every other pbaoe is radius 8 (besides spines and TW).  Spine Burst already has the drawback of being slow as all hell, and lethal damage. Whirling smash cant even be used without momentum. Again...your idea would be good, but it just isnt needed even MORE so adding a knockup or slow. Both which make zero sense.

 

I just cant get behind any of these ideas. The set has already gone from borderline rubbish to top tier (at least for me, the number crunchers may show different) with amazing ST, great aoe (and aoe that can be a bit better with Focus) and crazy stun mitigation. Not to mention -regen (again, NO other melee set has this). And all your ideas just wanna turn everything up to 22 with a lot of the things not fitting the set at all.

 

 

 

[Sancerre]

3 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

..and yet you propose changes to every power, bar taunt? I assume you do not mean make ALL changes listed..but still!

 

Bump the -regen on barrage? WHY? It is the only melee attack (only attack, full stop?) in game that does -regen. Also, anyone can get the Envenomed Dagger. Anyone. This argument is like saying Stamina needs to be buffed for everyone, just because Recovery Serum exists.

 

Energy punch getting -def or res? Again, why? The -def makes zero (less than zero) sense at all, and while the -res would be amazing, it would also be broken with how hard the set already hits!

 

Bone Smasher with a 100% stun? Again, come on. Its already a great stun, in a set loaded with them. I have frequently stunned an AV, with just 'my' mez attacks. More overkill.

 

Build up: Lower the buff? How about no. You can already get Energy Focus super easy and fairly fast from Total Focus, AND you get it even if the attack misses.

 

Whirling Hands. Increase the radius? Every other pbaoe is radius 8 (besides spines and TW).  Spine Burst already has the drawback of being slow as all hell, and lethal damage. Whirling smash cant even be used without momentum. Again...your idea would be good, but it just isnt needed even MORE so adding a knockup or slow. Both which make zero sense.

 

I just cant get behind any of these ideas. The set has already gone from borderline rubbish to top tier (at least for me, the number crunchers may show different) with amazing ST, great aoe (and aoe that can be a bit better with Focus) and crazy stun mitigation. Not to mention -regen (again, NO other melee set has this). And all your ideas just wanna turn everything up to 22 with a lot of the things not fitting the set at all.

 

 

 

 

Yes, i proposed changes to (mostly) everything to make Energy Focus feel like it was a _powerset_ interaction, not just a situational Energy Transfer DPA modifier... and i think i explained that much.  i was looking to give each attack a unique identity when using Energy Focus with it.  Perhaps a point that seems to have been misunderstood here by both folks that have replied so far.  All of the suggestions are only intended to be buffs when consuming a stack of Energy Focus.  And hopefully a modified build-up would allow flexibility to do something with Energy Focus aside from modify Energy Transfer DPA.

 

if a number i suggested seems 'over the top', i think a discussion surrounding a 'better number' is more productive than 'your number is too high'.

i also appreciate if folks just flat out disagree with the design change concept as whole, such as Siolfir.

 

barrage -- your point on other pay2win powers exist and we shouldnt be balancing around them existing is fair.  i can concede that.  just having barrage do only -regen (and such a small value) seemed like i was removing power from it... so i suggested a bump in the -regen and other additions in place of me moving the stun elsewhere.

 

energy punch -- you do need to acknowledge that my changes force you to use up Energy Focus and leave little room to 'save' it purely for energy transfer.  if you use Energy Focus for energy punch, that is Energy Focus you are _not_ using on energy transfer, for example.  the debuff duration doesnt need to last forever either, it can be a 4 second debuff.  again numbers presented were suggestions to start a conversation.

 

Bone Smasher -- yes i feel like the ability with a 60% stun chance would be the natural place to move the Energy Focus empowered stun to.  im a bit mystified as to why you think this specifically is broken.  it is fundamentally not much different than the current Live implementation on Barrage.  The flip side is that Siolfir appears to be of the opinion that holds are not that valuable and could be "wasting" an Energy Focus charge with this suggested change.

 

Build up -- I would say that you believe it is easy to get Energy Focus currently because you only care about using it with Energy Transfer.  if your only goal was to continue using Energy Focus specifically for Energy Transfer, then yes i can understand where you see this is pointless and effectively a 'nerf'.  that is not what i am presenting here, however.  Also, i did suggest that all empowered attacks receive an additional damage modifier (10-15% base bump).  this interaction does reduce damage of armor/epic/patron/power pool abilities though, yes.  However, it is a balancing point that other powersets applying secondary effects via buildup cope with, such as radiation melee and contamination.  i suggested a flat number of charges, but a possible alternative is 10 seconds of 'all abilities are empowered'... seemed a bit much though.  Incidentally stalkers usually dont get a modified build-up, so i'm not sure how my suggestions would impact them differently than tanker/brute/scrapper.

 

Whirling Hands -- it would still be 8 radius default.  larger radius only under the empowering effects of Energy Focus... you cite whirling smash vs momentum limitations and i think that is a great comparison!  thank you.  i would point out that whirling smash also has a 1 second cast time and a knockup though.  i actually thought asking only for 2 yards during empowerment would seem like too small of buff, so i suggested secondary effects (knockup/slow).  Maybe that was greedy of me.

 

Power Crash -- i do want to make a correction that this skill is already 10 range currently.  i am not sure why but it really doesnt _feel_ like it.  i play a titan weapon scrapper as well, but power crash doesnt feel like the same hitbox as arc of destruction... may just be personal problem and visual cues.  that said, power crash is fine as it is.

 

 

personally i feel like the the powerset is still very weak on AoE -- certainly nowhere near claws, for example.  and that is fine because claws doesnt have energy transfer.  the single target is extraordinary, but that is entirely resting on the shoulders of Total Focus and Energy Transfer.  The other 3 single target abilities are very... solidly average otherwise.  i believe that my suggestions in general play would still lean towards tunneling on doing Total Focus -> Energy Transfer. but.. during buildup use, you can choose to apply _other_ interactions.

[arcane]

Don’t see EM needing any buffs in its current state. It’s now firmly back in the “one of the best sets” categories. It’s single target damage is so incredible that it has to have relatively weak AoE. Think it’s time to focus on other sets.

[siolfir]

16 hours ago, Sancerre said:

Perhaps a point that seems to have been misunderstood here by both folks that have replied so far.  All of the suggestions are only intended to be buffs when consuming a stack of Energy Focus.  

 

<snippage>

 

Bone Smasher -- yes i feel like the ability with a 60% stun chance would be the natural place to move the Energy Focus empowered stun to.  im a bit mystified as to why you think this specifically is broken.  it is fundamentally not much different than the current Live implementation on Barrage.  The flip side is that Siolfir appears to be of the opinion that holds are not that valuable and could be "wasting" an Energy Focus charge with this suggested change.

 

<snippage>

 

personally i feel like the the powerset is still very weak on AoE -- certainly nowhere near claws, for example.  and that is fine because claws doesnt have energy transfer.  the single target is extraordinary, but that is entirely resting on the shoulders of Total Focus and Energy Transfer.  The other 3 single target abilities are very... solidly average otherwise.  i believe that my suggestions in general play would still lean towards tunneling on doing Total Focus -> Energy Transfer. but.. during buildup use, you can choose to apply _other_ interactions.

I just want to clarify - I missed the part about Bone Smasher (I edited my earlier post saying as much) but I assumed that you wanted all of the powers listed with bonuses as consumers.

 

I don't like that the Energy Focus mechanic was added. When I provided my feedback - both before I knew what the changes were while the set was still in a closed beta, and after when it was opened up for everyone - I expressed this. But I also understood that it was going to be here to stay whether I like it or not so I wanted it to have as little impact on the set as possible, because I played it before the TF and ET nerfs and loved it then despite its flaws. Thus my response that your opinion and mine could not be farther apart. You want it to expand and touch everything; I don't consider the set that result from that to be Energy Melee - it's some twisted version with the same name that I don't want or need. I also want to never see a slow Energy Transfer animation ever again, so the more consumers that are added to the set, the more it dictates "this is how you should use your powers in this specific order."

 

I'm also not of the opinion that stuns (it's a stun, not a hold) are not valuable, but boosting a 60% chance in a set where you're already stacked with single target stun is mostly irrelevant - you're probably going to stun the target without burning your charge of focus, so using a charge of focus to do so is just penalizing you for using a damage power in your attack chain. Going from Barrage's 30% chance to 100% and having -special and -regen takes a power people aren't using much (unless they have to) into something that people can choose to use for the special effect. That's why I suggested moving it there in the open beta feedback thread - it's a larger boost to the power and it gets a "penalty" feeling out of the standard attack chain (which uses Bone Smasher).

 

And yes, the set is weak on AoE. It's better than it was, though, and having low-to-mid AoE is a balancing point for its great single target damage.

 

And all of this has been said elsewhere, ad nauseum.

[Sancerre]

So i had actually stepped away from this game for over a year before i picked it back up recently.  Some of these changes over the time gone were exciting to see.  I suppose I should have read up on the old topics debating energy melee changes first... before suggesting even more controversial sweeping changes.  the idea of a 'combo' system in any form seems to be a hard line that people are generally unhappy with... among other adamant opinions...

 

My personal look at the 'revised' powerset is that it appears under-cooked -- or just dipped the toes in the water.  The biggest red herring to me is the Barrage interaction -- it just doesnt appear to have a meaningful interaction, especially comparing with the power disparity of using Energy Transfer instead.  Beyond that, it appeared odd to me that the powerset had this unique mechanic but build-up was still... just standard build-up that didnt lean into Energy Focus at all.  But it also doesnt really make sense to force Energy Focus into build-up (along with the power reduction compensation that is standard fare) just to tunnel it into Energy Transfer only.

 

Regardless, it is still a very strong powerset that doesnt necessarily need to see any more changes.  I am enjoying my energy melee toon as is.  I still like my ideas, but i can accept that the current energy melee 'revision' was already a massive controversial leap.

[Talen Lee]

On 6/19/2021 at 11:36 AM, Sancerre said:

Replace the Stun

One of the best things about Energy Melee is the way that its passive perk stacks and layers the way it does. I really like that it's all stuns.

[BrandX]

45 minutes ago, Talen Lee said:

One of the best things about Energy Melee is the way that its passive perk stacks and layers the way it does. I really like that it's all stuns.

 

Agreed!  Not only do I love the pom pom animations, but I love just having the stun effects!