Mind/ dom. Mass confusion buff?

[Psilencer]

Hi there,

 

Are there any buffs coming to Mass Confusion (maybe relating to the Cool Down being lowered?).  I'm not sure how it can be justified as a top tier power when Seeds of Confusion is a thing.

 

My Mind/Psi dom is my favorite character ever.  I played him YEARS before CoH came out in a pencil and paper RPG and was delighted to be able to make him in a video game setting.  However Mind/ has always gnawed at me because of the excessively long recharge on Mass Confusion.  This has been made even more apparent with Seeds in the game.

 

Cheers!

[oedipus_tex]

There's been no specific mention of a buff, but I agree with you Mind Control deserves one.

[Psilencer]

13 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

There's been no specific mention of a buff, but I agree with you Mind Control deserves one.

 

Appreciated.  It's also nice knowing that I'm not the only one hoping for it! 

[SwitchFade]

Seeds will most likely see a detune. It's out of whack.

 

That said, mass confusion is very, very powerful. If it had any kind of buff, there would be a commensurate reduction to total domination. A well built mind down, between MC and TD, has a potent set of aoe control.

 

A few powers could use tweaks (I'm looking at you, TK!) But nothing major.

[MoonSheep]

i don’t think it needs a buff, put the confuse proc in the ST confuse and that helps spread it around

 

there’s enough other mez powers in the set to choose from if mass confusion is recharging

[Psilencer]

On 7/4/2021 at 3:44 AM, MoonSheep said:

i don’t think it needs a buff, put the confuse proc in the ST confuse and that helps spread it around

 

there’s enough other mez powers in the set to choose from if mass confusion is recharging

 

How is this reconciled with Seeds of Confusion being better than the T9?

[laudwic]

It seems like every week or two we have a discussion about this powerset.  It generally comes down to Mass Confusion vs. Seeds of Confusion and Lack of a Pet vs. Mass Confusion makes them all your pets - not really as they fight and I don't get all xp and so on.

[MoonSheep]

7 hours ago, Psilencer said:

 

How is this reconciled with Seeds of Confusion being better than the T9?

 

I believe SoC aggros enemies whereas mass confusion doesn’t, putting MC at a significant advantage 

[oedipus_tex]

Mass Confusion was given the 240 recharge because the set was around during the great control nerf around Issue 4. It was the only clickable AoE Confuse at the time, so with nothing to compare it to, those numbers were assumed to be fine. Sets that came later were balanced differently. You can see how Plant and especially Electric and Dark Control were created by self-aware dev teams who were reacting to what turned out to be popular and what did not. That's fine, but its why Mind and some other sets deserve a revisit.

 

One kinda interesting thing about the history is that until those latter sets came out, it wasn't even clear that AoE immobilize was a Controller staple. Four sets had it (Ice, Earth, Fire, Gravity) and two did not (Mind, Illusion). It wasn't until Plant, Electric and Dark all showed up on the scene with AoE immobilize that it was clearly defined as a class trait, with Mind and Illusion as huge outliers.

Edited July 7, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

On 7/7/2021 at 3:26 AM, oedipus_tex said:

You can see how Plant and especially Electric and Dark Control were created by self-aware dev teams who were reacting to what turned out to be popular and what did not.

 

I'd say the self-awareness kicked in when they changed Mass Confusion before those new shinies came out.  This nerf was before IO's and likely an anticipation of how strong control was about to be.  Although I do like my sci-fi movies where the Psychic comes to realize their full potential I just don't think that walking through missions perma-confusing the map would seem very challenging.  

 

Those new shinies were intentionally left a bit too good likely to promote how good of a job they did at creating something new that people wanted to play with.  They were and still are due for some toning down in some areas.  

[vibal]

On 7/8/2021 at 2:02 PM, Mezmera said:

 

I'd say the self-awareness kicked in when they changed Mass Confusion before those new shinies came out.  This nerf was before IO's and likely an anticipation of how strong control was about to be.  Although I do like my sci-fi movies where the Psychic comes to realize their full potential I just don't think that walking through missions perma-confusing the map would seem very challenging.  

 

Those new shinies were intentionally left a bit too good likely to promote how good of a job they did at creating something new that people wanted to play with.  They were and still are due for some toning down in some areas.  

Of the three listed (plant, dark, electric) plant is the only outlier in that list.

 

Dark is at best a mid tier set. Low damage, schizophrenic positioning requirements due to pboae's and cones. The aoe hold is slightly better as it has a chance to reapply to new targets, but haunt doesn't even compare to PA - the most likely mirror. It feels like the watered down illusion we would've gotten if the late game devs redesigned the set.

 

Electric works very favorably with procs, but that's not unique. A chaining KB and an aggro inducing chain confuse aren't broken (coercive persuasion arguably is). The sleep is nice as it pulses which makes it the only general use sleep available. It's definitely a fun & chaotic set, but isn't in the same league as plant/illusion.

[JJDrakken]

Mass Confusion in my opinion should replace Telekinesis.  They should give top spot to Psi Pet, that Yin creates.

[SwitchFade]

On 7/6/2021 at 7:16 AM, Psilencer said:

 

How is this reconciled with Seeds of Confusion being better than the T9?

Seeds will see a detune, a Bit over performing.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, JJDrakken said:

Mass Confusion in my opinion should replace Telekinesis.  They should give top spot to Psi Pet, that Yin creates.

Mind is "no fixed single pet" by design, which is good. I would not want to see it turned into a pet.

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, vibal said:

Of the three listed (plant, dark, electric) plant is the only outlier in that list.

 

Dark is at best a mid tier set. Low damage, schizophrenic positioning requirements due to pboae's and cones. The aoe hold is slightly better as it has a chance to reapply to new targets, but haunt doesn't even compare to PA - the most likely mirror. It feels like the watered down illusion we would've gotten if the late game devs redesigned the set.

 

Electric works very favorably with procs, but that's not unique. A chaining KB and an aggro inducing chain confuse aren't broken (coercive persuasion arguably is). The sleep is nice as it pulses which makes it the only general use sleep available. It's definitely a fun & chaotic set, but isn't in the same league as plant/illusion.

 

Yes Plant is the top dog of the bunch. 

 

Dark to me seems a bit more damage oriented with those haunts plus then the ability to pump out that -tohitt, it is a clunky set to use set at times, I wouldn't say it's middle of the pack, more top end with the benefits listed if you're looking for those specific things.  

 

Electric is as you say but I wouldn't call this one middle of the pack either, it's a better control than most.  

 

You're right though nothing is in the league of Plant or Illusion.  Illusion is just as it is, it's had a few passes, it's probably best just to leave it on Controllers where it's at.  Plant has had no such pass and it is deserving of one.   Then on that same token most other control could use a sprucing up.  

Edited July 15, 2021 by Mezmera

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, JJDrakken said:

Mass Confusion in my opinion should replace Telekinesis.  They should give top spot to Psi Pet, that Yin creates.

 

The intent of Mind Control is that the world is your oyster.  You can make everything around you do whatever you feel.  What use would you have of some hanger-on when we can revamp TK that empowers you even more? 

 

It's a unique control set.  We don't need to be like those other lame control sets.  

Edited July 15, 2021 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

FWIW, Synaptic Overload is coded to skip targets that are Confused, so the way it functions with Contagious Confusion slotted are hard to measure. Generally its good to have the proc if fighting a big group, and bad if its a small or isolated group because the proc triggering can block the power from propogating.

 

Does make me wonder how folks would react to Seeds of Confusion that Replaces or Ignores rather than Stacks. It's the only existing AoE Confuse that's feasible to self stack. Synaptic mostly doesn't, as mentioned above, Arctic Air can't self stack, and Mass Confusion is mostly Recharge limited. I'm not sure I have enough fire resistant armor to withstand the reaction if Seeds got that nerf, but it's how the other confuses mostly work.   

Edited July 15, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[vibal]

Spot on @oedipus_tex  - my gameplay experience is that it's generally more valuable to be able to confuse bosses for 10s without the overpower proc than to stack it as it has a notable recharge.

[vibal]

3 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

Dark to me seems a bit more damage oriented with those haunts plus then the ability to pump out that -tohitt, it is a clunky set to use set at times, I wouldn't say it's middle of the pack, more top end with the benefits listed if you're looking for those specific things.  

 

 

Every power in dark's base toolkit does the same damage or less damage than plant. That doesn't take into account sets that have an actual attack in the set (ill/grav). The haunts could be as you describe, but they're awful. They have travel time, low damage, there's only 2, and they can be targeted. A 60 degree cone is pretty good, but it's still not as usable as a TAoE. Said cone also does less damage (11.93) than plant (18.35). Roots is a bit of an outlier there and living shadows does a tick more damage than something like chain fences (9.18) or fire cage (10.09) it pays a toll in that regard for being less applicable than either as a cone.

 

-ToHit is an attractive secondary effect, but I think that highlights a separate issue with control sets. More than any other archtype controllers and doms lean into every aspect of the toon. It doesn't add to the damage of dark, but does tip the utility slightly. How much is debatable.

[DZKFire]

I am still of the opinion for giving Mass Confusion a minor buff, probably a slight recharge buff at the cost of reducing duration. For (reliable) AoE controls: we have total domination and mass confusion, both with extremely long cool downs, shortened durations and an accuracy penalty. The fillers we have are mass hypnosis and terrify, both are kind of unreliable and can be broken by the smallest amount of damage. I am actually a fan of mass hypnosis and I use it all the time to function as a pseudo-interrupt, and with terrify I slot in the immobilize proc (or knockdown proc, whichever chaos I want that day) so it acts a little more reliable as a CC.

[laudwic]

On 7/15/2021 at 2:08 PM, SwitchFade said:

Mind is "no fixed single pet" by design, which is good. I would not want to see it turned into a pet.

 

I disagree, I would greatly prefer if mind had a pet. 

 

I would especially like if I could confuse an enemy and take them around as a helper, with no xp loss for the damage they do like every other pet, until they are defeated or I use a confuse power on something else.  Limit it to a minion or an LT.  Heck, make it so you have to do Mass Confusion and then Confuse the target.  Make it something that makes the set stand out and be unique.  Make 'no fixed single pet' special not blah.

 

Mind suffers from early design that was not reviewed as the game grew.  Right now, 'no fixed single pet' is not special or set defining.

 

By the 'no fixed single pet' logic, Illusion has Phantasm, Phantom Army, and Deceive (Mind's no fixed pet)

 

Oh, but you say, deceive is single target, Mass Confusion is mass!

 

Yeah, still Plant Control has Seeds of Confusion as a level 8 power that is superior in a whole bunch of ways.

 

If you could keep one and it's damage counted as your damage for xp, that would be something special.  Even if it was only a minion or LT.

 

Mind could use a little something special.  Especially since folks will still complain about lost xp due to a confuse power.

[oedipus_tex]

I've been looking closer at the publicly available CoX code and am reasonably sure it would be possible to allow players to command enemies to perform emotes. Game Devs can force an enemy to do to it, Masterminds I believe can already do it for their pets. It would require some configuring for the appropriate checks, but would be very on-theme to force a squad of enemies to perform jumping jacks. 

 

That probably isn't an update to Mass Confusion, but to Mass Hypnosis instead, which currently can be used without enemies noticing you, so if you set an animation bit on them they'd continuously do that animation.

 

It's not a practical change but would make Mind Control feel a lot more "psychic" to me. Plus the LOLs.

Edited July 21, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

 

I disagree, I would greatly prefer if mind had a pet. 

 

I would especially like if I could confuse an enemy and take them around as a helper, with no xp loss for the damage they do like every other pet, until they are defeated or I use a confuse power on something else.  Limit it to a minion or an LT.  Heck, make it so you have to do Mass Confusion and then Confuse the target.  Make it something that makes the set stand out and be unique.  Make 'no fixed single pet' special not blah.

 

Mind suffers from early design that was not reviewed as the game grew.  Right now, 'no fixed single pet' is not special or set defining.

 

By the 'no fixed single pet' logic, Illusion has Phantasm, Phantom Army, and Deceive (Mind's no fixed pet)

 

Oh, but you say, deceive is single target, Mass Confusion is mass!

 

Yeah, still Plant Control has Seeds of Confusion as a level 8 power that is superior in a whole bunch of ways.

 

If you could keep one and it's damage counted as your damage for xp, that would be something special.  Even if it was only a minion or LT.

 

Mind could use a little something special.  Especially since folks will still complain about lost xp due to a confuse power.

 

See: Darkness Control, Earth Control, Electric Control, Fire Control, Gravity Control, Ice Control, Plant Control.

 

Also see: Leviathan Mastery, Mace Mastery, Mu Mastery, Soul Mastery

 

And also see: All Lore pets.  

 

There's a plethora of options for you to get your pet fix.  I'd still take not one but two confuses over just about all of those but for the Lore pets, which they should never make pets as good as those in the primary power sets.  

 

Mind is special.  You may be doing it wrong?

Edited July 21, 2021 by Mezmera

[laudwic]

15 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

See: Darkness Control, Earth Control, Electric Control, Fire Control, Gravity Control, Ice Control, Plant Control.

 

Also see: Leviathan Mastery, Mace Mastery, Mu Mastery, Soul Mastery

 

And also see: All Lore pets.  

 

There's a plethora of options for you to get your pet fix.  I'd still take not one but two confuses over just about all of those but for the Lore pets, which they should never make pets as good as those in the primary power sets.  

 

Mind is special.  You may be doing it wrong?

 

You forgot masterminds pets.  If the argument is pets are readily available, then the actual pet class should be cited.

 

You also forgot the unimplemented Wind Control which was also planned to have a pet at level 32.   It also looks like the proposed level 18 power would have been better than Mass Confusion as Seeds of Confusion was with Plant Control.  Homecoming hasn't implemented this set, but some of the other servers have.  I hope Homecoming is able to do so.

 

Each of the go red to get a a pet is a limited duration pet with a high recharge.  None of them is anywhere near comparable to any of the level 32 controller pets.

 

I pointed out, directly, how mind 'no one set pet' idea that you put across is inaccurate and lacking.  I even gave a suggestion of a possible, I do not know enough to say probable or feasible (Although I would imagine it would be considering we have a good number of powers that add an additional effect if used in conjunction with another power, see gravity control, psy melee, or beam rifle), fix that would not need to add additional powers that I think people would be excited about.

 

Instead of actually approaching what I was suggesting, there is deflection.  Because I do not agree with you does not mean either of us is 'doing it wrong' or even doing it right.  There can be disagreement.  Just because something is available with a pet, that is available to every other controller and many other ATs, does not correct, in my opinion, the problems with this power set.

 

Now, Minds cap stone level 32 power is surpassed by a level 8 plant control power.  Even if Seeds of Confusion did not exist, Mass Confusion in its current version still lacking and should be reevaluated.  At a minimum, the recharge time is too long.

 

As it stands now, Mind is special in a negative way as it is an original power set that has not been reexamined. reevaluated, and updated based upon how the game has changed since the start.

 

 

[Mezmera]

3 hours ago, laudwic said:

 

You forgot masterminds pets.  If the argument is pets are readily available, then the actual pet class should be cited.

 

You also forgot the unimplemented Wind Control which was also planned to have a pet at level 32.   It also looks like the proposed level 18 power would have been better than Mass Confusion as Seeds of Confusion was with Plant Control.  Homecoming hasn't implemented this set, but some of the other servers have.  I hope Homecoming is able to do so.

 

Each of the go red to get a a pet is a limited duration pet with a high recharge.  None of them is anywhere near comparable to any of the level 32 controller pets.

 

I pointed out, directly, how mind 'no one set pet' idea that you put across is inaccurate and lacking.  I even gave a suggestion of a possible, I do not know enough to say probable or feasible (Although I would imagine it would be considering we have a good number of powers that add an additional effect if used in conjunction with another power, see gravity control, psy melee, or beam rifle), fix that would not need to add additional powers that I think people would be excited about.

 

Instead of actually approaching what I was suggesting, there is deflection.  Because I do not agree with you does not mean either of us is 'doing it wrong' or even doing it right.  There can be disagreement.  Just because something is available with a pet, that is available to every other controller and many other ATs, does not correct, in my opinion, the problems with this power set.

 

Now, Minds cap stone level 32 power is surpassed by a level 8 plant control power.  Even if Seeds of Confusion did not exist, Mass Confusion in its current version still lacking and should be reevaluated.  At a minimum, the recharge time is too long.

 

As it stands now, Mind is special in a negative way as it is an original power set that has not been reexamined. reevaluated, and updated based upon how the game has changed since the start.

 

 

 

I forgot nothing.  This is the Dominator thread.  I mentioned everything pertaining to Dom's on HC at the moment.  I could mention the Wind Control/Psychokinetic Assault (whips) dom I have on Thunderspy but that doesn't pertain to here.  

 

Now If we are talking wanting to add more power sets I'll take Wind Control and anything else HC can come up with being implemented here for certain.  Mind Control though is fine as it is just about, and wasting time addressing this set would be time better used implementing new toys to play with.   

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mezmera