Dark / Martial vs Rad / Martial

[Carnifax]

Hi folks

 

So I wanted a new Tank which could handle the stuff I traditionally leave as "build holes" on my other two toughest characters (Fire/Claws Tank and Mace/Rad Brute). I also had a character name "Null the Skull", a traditional gang member who was confused by the fact heroes kept coming up to him and asking them to change their alignments. 

 

So Dark Armour was the obvious candidate. I could make them basically immune to Psi and laugh at the stuff which made my other two chars go "Ow, that stings / urrgh I need to pop insps to live". But I'm really struggling with Dark. The heal is great and all but the End woes, even mid 20s with every +Recovery / Chance for End slotted is horrific. 

 

So I looked at making a Rad / Martial in Mids instead and just patching up the Psi hole and it looks much better overall. Way better End management. An Absorb shield to layer over the silly resists and (very strippable) high defenses. Couple of AoE Proc Bomb powers in Ground 0 & Rad Therapy.

 

So given all of that how do people cope with Dark Armours crappy End management and am I just better to colour Rad Darkity dark dark and use that instead? 

 

Dark / Martial

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.9
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Dark Armor
Secondary Power Set: Martial Arts
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Death Shroud -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(3), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(3), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), EndRdx-I(7)
Level 1: Thunder Kick -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(31), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(7), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(23)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(11), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), UnbGrd-Max HP%(13), GldArm-3defTpProc(13)
Level 6: Obsidian Shield -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(15), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(15), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 8: Dark Regeneration -- ThfofEss-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(A), ThfofEss-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(17), ThfofEss-Acc/Heal(19), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(19), EndRdx-I(21), ThfofEss-+End%(43)
Level 10: Storm Kick -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(34), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(48), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 12: Warrior's Provocation -- PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(A)
Level 14: Cloak of Darkness -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(25), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(25)
Level 16: Crane Kick -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(21), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(33), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(46), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(47), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(47)
Level 18: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Dragon's Tail -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(45), FrcFdb-Rechg%(45)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), WntGif-ResSlow(42)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 26: Oppressive Gloom -- RopADop-Acc/EndRdx(A), RopADop-Acc/Stun/Rchg(27), RopADop-Acc/Stun(27)
Level 28: Super Jump -- BlsoftheZ-Travel(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(29)
Level 30: Focus Chi -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 32: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(33), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(34), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), ImpArm-ResPsi(37), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(37)
Level 35: Weave -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(36), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(36)
Level 38: Crippling Axe Kick -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40), Hct-Dam%(42)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), DefBuff-I(39), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(39)
Level 44: Focused Accuracy -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 49: Energy Torrent -- Bmbdmt-Dam(A), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(49), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(49), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech(50), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech/End(50), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(50)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(23), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(42)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(46)
Level 28: Double Jump 
------------

 

Rad / Martial

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.9
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Radiation Armor
Secondary Power Set: Martial Arts
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Alpha Barrier -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(3), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), UnbGrd-Max HP%(5), ImpArm-ResPsi(7)
Level 1: Thunder Kick -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(31), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Gamma Boost -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal(7), PrfShf-End%(9)
Level 4: Proton Armor -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(11), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(13), ImpArm-ResPsi(13)
Level 6: Fallout Shelter -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(15), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(15), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), ImpArm-ResPsi(25), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 8: Radiation Therapy -- Prv-Heal/Rchg(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(17), Obl-%Dam(19), Erd-%Dam(19), Arm-Dam%(21), ThfofEss-+End%(43)
Level 10: Storm Kick -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(34), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(48), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 12: Warrior's Provocation -- PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(A)
Level 14: Beta Decay -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A)
Level 16: Crane Kick -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(21), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(33), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(46), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(47), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(47)
Level 18: Particle Shielding -- Prv-Heal/Rchg(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(23), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(23), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 20: Dragon's Tail -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(45), FrcFdb-Rechg%(45)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), WntGif-ResSlow(42)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 26: Ground Zero -- Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(27), AchHee-ResDeb%(27), TchofLadG-%Dam(29), Erd-%Dam(29), Obl-%Dam(33)
Level 28: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Focus Chi -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 32: Meltdown -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), ImpArm-ResPsi(33), Ags-Psi/Status(34)
Level 35: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(36), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(36), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), ImpArm-ResPsi(37), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(37)
Level 38: Crippling Axe Kick -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40), Hct-Dam%(42)
Level 41: Weave -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(39), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(39)
Level 44: Focused Accuracy -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), DefBuff-I(49), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(49)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(42)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(46)
------------

 

Like I said I'd prefer to stick with Dark, but I'm struggling to see why Rad wouldn't be a option. It seems to do everything Dark does but better overall. 

[arcane]

Keep in mind endurance problems are only relevant to level 44 and below. There isn’t a powerset combo in the game Incarnates can’t fix end-wise. So unless you exemp a lot, just cast that thought from your mind.

 

Other than that, they’re both going to be great. Rad will do more damage, Dark will be tougher, but Rad will usually be tough enough.

 

Both of your builds in particular will have no sturdiness issues though, because you’ve slotted for bonuses an awful lot. My tankers prefer more proc bombin offensive power 🙂

Edited September 27, 2021 by arcane

[Carnifax]

I have a Brute for proc bomb madness. This is my attempt at a "proper tanky tank" who doesn't go "Eeek" because we're on the Mother Mayhem mission (or similiar). 

 

My big issue with Dark is possibly that I'm still levelling, but he does have every +End / +Recovery IO going already slotted and it's still painful. That said there's currently few other sets slotted so maybe this is just me. Worried because the same thing happened with a Fire/NRG Domi and I ended up abandoning them at 47. End was seemingly impossible to sort out fully (I exempt a lot doing SG TFs so Incarnates are not a good solution there). 

 

Another thing I noticed was that the Acc of Rad Therapy is WAY better than Dark Regen. Seems almost unfair (I noticed it on a Posi 2 where Dark Regen kept whiffing on me)

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Carnifax

[ZemX]

You definitely won't have end issues with Rad Armor.  Between Particle Shielding, Gamma Boost, and Rad Therapy, you don't even really need Physical Perfection.  I'd replace it with Taunt or another one-slot wonder of your choice.   You might consider Tactics, since yet more toHit/+percep is never a bad thing and Rad Armor doesn't otherwise have any Confuse protection.

 

I don't know how much you exemplar, but I do... so I pushed Maneuvers/Tactics earlier and Kick/Tough/Weave later.  I found I had more trouble hitting than I did with having a bit of extra S/L resist earlier.  I generally built in as much debuff resistance as I could find because everything hits me.  Movement/Recharge resist.  Perception.  ToHit.  etc.  One thing I can't get anywhere outside of Incarnates is DDR... so I kind of didn't bother trying to stack too much defense.  It's so often stripped anyway.  Recharge is more important.   

 

If they can't kill you before Particle Shielding recharges... they can't kill you.

[Carnifax]

So I ended up taking both for a drive on Beta vs +4x8 Arachnos. The Dark/Martials 1st spawn was mostly Mu(!) which resulted in a war of attrition thanks to my poor AoE & lack of End tools and eventually they detoggled and overwhelmed him. Rad / Martial happily ploughed his way through them. 

 

So I've gone with Rad/Martial as my "tanky-tank". I know Inv is tougher overall but Rad has more 'fun' powers.

 

Final build available on @Procats CoH BuildShare (which is a great place to host your builds). 

https://cohbuildshare.com/builds/249

[PLVRIZR]

4 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I know Inv is tougher overall but Rad has more 'fun' powers.

 

More fun?  Pshttttt...says the Inv fanboy (see sig)...😝

[Werner]

6 hours ago, Carnifax said:

So I ended up taking both for a drive on Beta vs +4x8 Arachnos. The Dark/Martials 1st spawn was mostly Mu(!) which resulted in a war of attrition thanks to my poor AoE & lack of End tools and eventually they detoggled and overwhelmed him.

Although he's been mostly shelved since I finished my Shield/MA, I didn't remember having a problem with +4x8 Arachnos on my Dark/MA, so I dove in to refresh my memory. Once I got enough Mus around me from multiple pulls, they did start slowly dragging my endurance down. It looks like I took Physical Perfection and Conserve Power, and using Conserve Power made my endurance go back up. Or I could have gone with Ageless, though probably Ageless Radial since I need some way of dealing with extreme defense debuffs like Cimerorans, but I think that's still a full endurance bar, giving you more time to take them down. Hmmm, I also had Focused Accuracy toggled on, but thinking back I think I only toggled it on situationally. If I didn't have any of these tools, I could have detoggled Assault, and even Maneuvers since I was being significantly defense debuffed anyway. I also could have corner pulled the Mus and then stuck them in my stun aura, though they'd probably then slowly wander back out. In any case, it seems like there are lots of ways to handle them. I hear Radiation is great, and maybe it handles them more easily, but Dark/MA should be able to handle +4x8 Arachnos just fine. Here's my build.

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.6.0
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Olafur: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Dark Armor
Secondary Power Set: Martial Arts
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Death Shroud -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(5), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(7)
Level 1: Thunder Kick -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(7)
Level 2: Storm Kick -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(9), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(13)
Level 4: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(19), Ksm-ToHit+(19), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(21), WntGif-ResSlow(21)
Level 6: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(23), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), UnbGrd-Max HP%(25)
Level 8: Dark Regeneration -- FuroftheG-Acc/End/Rech(A), FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg(25), FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(27), TchoftheN-Heal(27), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(29), ThfofEss-+End%(29)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- StdPrt-ResKB(A)
Level 12: Murky Cloud -- GldArm-End/Res(A), GldArm-RechRes(31), GldArm-RechEnd(31), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(31), GldArm-ResDam(33), GldArm-3defTpProc(33)
Level 14: Cloak of Darkness -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(34), ShlWal-Def(34), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(34)
Level 16: Boxing -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 18: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 20: Dragon's Tail -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(36), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Arm-Acc/Rchg(37), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Arm-Dam%(37)
Level 22: Warrior's Provocation -- PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(A)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), ShlWal-Def(40)
Level 26: Oppressive Gloom -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 28: Focus Chi -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(40), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(40), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--Build%(42)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(43), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 35: Crippling Axe Kick -- Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Acc/Rchg(45), Hct-Dmg(46), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Hct-Dam%(46), AchHee-ResDeb%(48)
Level 38: Eagles Claw -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(50), TchofDth-Dam%(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 47: Focused Accuracy -- HO:Cyto(A)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Brawl -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(9)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), Prv-Absorb%(15), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(17)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment 
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement 
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon 
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 50: Portal Jockey 
Level 50: Task Force Commander 
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion 
------------

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		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

[Gobbledigook]

A well built Dark shouldn't have much trouble with endurance with ageless and a theft of essence proc in Dregeneration. 

 

They are fairly similar. Rad you need to move about more to give your heals time when getting overwhelmed and Dark just stands there and hopefully the heal is up quick enough. But that is more extreme content.

 

Martial arts would add to Darks Cloak of Darkness defence quite nicely.

 

Dark has an aura and Rad has an AoE nuke. Rads nuke is good for jumping into a group and unleashing that extra AoE but its slow to use.

 

Rad will be easier at lower levels due to better endurance management.

 

Dark Obliteration or one of the other AoE powers in the epic pools will help MA with some extra AoE.

 

Both are good choices.