The Reason "Master Of..." Trials Fail (It's the leader's fault)

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, Icy Mike said:

Just a blanket reply to all of the "yOu ShOuLd AsK qUeStIoNs!" responses: this is a pretty illogical view.

No it isn't. As an adult and teammate you have a responsibility to try to work with your other teammates. Saying "hey guys, what are we doing" is the absolutely minimum effort of teamwork. Or are you going to claim that asking questions is hard?

 

2 hours ago, Icy Mike said:

It just doesn't make any sense. If everyone was willing and capable to suddenly become more knowledgeable and competent... then we wouldn't really need leaders would we?

I've known a lot of people who were very competent at their specific field who aren't leaders, they aren't the same thing. And, in any case, there needs to be one leader, just as there needs to be one person managing a schedule, otherwise you end up with conflicts.

 

2 hours ago, Icy Mike said:

The big problem here is you want a bunch of incompetent and uninterested people to do things.

No, sorry. I absolutely refuse to believe that anyone who's found Homecoming, figured out how to download and run the game, played awhile, figured out how to join a team or task force, is then suddenly so stupid that they can't even say "hey guys, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, can someone explain it to me?"

 

And if they're that uninterested in what's going on then why would they have joined that team/task force in the first place?

 

Look, I'm one of those who believes that when anything goes wrong it's always the Captain's fault. Always. But, if you were the one who caused the ship to sink then it's your fault too. And trying to use "oh, I'm too incompetent and uninterested to ask a question" is really not a defense. Or at least it's a defense that you should be too embarrassed to use.

 

But hey, if refusing to learn and blaming all of your mistakes on others, instead of accepting some personal responsibility, is your thing then... Welcome to Twitter!  🙂 

[Ukase]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:07 AM, Veracor said:

I have to agree.  After many MoTFs/iTrials led on Everlasting, I have observed that it really is mostly my fault if something fails.  Most causes of failure are from someone simply not understanding a pre-run instruction, rather than someone being a jerk about following them.  Should they have spoken up about what they're confused by?  Yeah.  But it's still my fault.  A lot of experienced players get on my case for having extremely long and detailed instructions for MoKeyes, but it has proven to make a significant difference in getting through it with new players in the league.

 

1. The leader is responsible for making sure people know what the run entails.  If they don't, the leader is responsible for explaining it to them.  If this is a league, the leader is also responsible for league management to help success, including equalizing levels or level shifts, ATs, and support among the teams.
2. The leader should be putting out detailed instructions before the run to give a plan of action, and then giving simpler versions of those instructions during the run to make sure everyone is on the same page.  You shouldn't be messaging people directly before the run starts unless it genuinely looks like they're going to be in over their heads.
3. During the run, the leader should be messaging anyone that doesn't seem to be following instructions and making sure they understand what's going on.  Sometimes it's just a cat on their lap distracting them.  At the very least make sure they didn't close their chat window after the run started (Yes, this is a thing).
4. If a squishy is bragging about how good their softcap build is and is running into melee range, it is still on the leader when they inevitably die to defense debuffs.  It is also on the leader to be chill and to tell the person what they need to do differently on the re-run.  Be informative and decisive about it, no matter how much it personally irks you.  Sometimes a dummy has to die first before they're open to any advice.
5. The leader is responsible for kicking griefers, and usually immediately as soon as they act.  You must be watchful and suspicious at all times, but also to not jump to conclusions until you get that split-second confirmation.  It is also the leader's responsibility to keep track of intentional leechers and to not invite them in the future.  The team/league's well-being is on the leader.
6. One thing that the leader is not really responsible for is experienced players running ahead of the league in good faith.  I don't care if it's your 100th MoUG run with me and you're simply moving down the hall to where we begin the bomb phase.  Don't go past me until I've run the bomb instructions so that newer players understand how the badge works.  I will give you the Incan of Shame back to my position if you do.

 

You have to be patient when leading public Mo runs.  While you should always shoot to win, in the grand scheme it's not a big deal to lose.  Try again tomorrow or next week.  Be observant for things you can improve upon and treat the failed runs as lessons.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on #4. This is the squishy's fault, absolutely. Unless you have control of their keyboard and mouse, in no way is this any leader's fault.  Anytime you're going for a Master badge, everyone on the league should have run the content before - perhaps not on that character, but on an alt, at a minimum. They should already have a clear understanding of what's expected. For an incarnate trial, most of the time, inexperience isn't much of a deal breaker, as there's so many buffs/debuffs in a league, it covers a multitude of errors. But for a Master of Task Force that doesn't allow defeats, if they've never experienced the explosion of a Cyst in ITF, and don't stay at range, that's something they should know before hand. It doesn't hurt for a leader to remind them of it - but if they don't, that's something I would expect people on a Master run to know before hand. 

The leader's role is simply recruiting & inviting and sharing the strategies. With your criteria, nobody but you would be leading anything. You have to leave the onus of familiarity of the trial or task force with the players. Granted, different leaders will employ varying strategies - and it's the leader's role to make those strategies clear.  But we shouldn't set the bar of leadership so high that nobody will want to lead anything. 

 

[CaptainAmazing]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:39 PM, Techwright said:

While I've definitely seen some leaders who provide little to no explanation, I've definitely seen a larger share of "Master Of..." trials where seasoned, near-universally respected leaders cannot get folks to pay attention.  I've seen multiple occasions where the leaders repeat the steps of the situation multiple times, before and during the trial, often in bold text or duplicating on bright-colored special channels (that all were informed about before going into the trial), and I've even seen a string of other players adding their pleas for people to pay attention only to see several members of the league still mow down the target with no regard to the reward goal or the instructions given repeatedly. The only thing I've not seen these incredibly patient leaders try is individually getting responses from each player going into the trial that they understand the instructions and will abide by them.  And frankly, that should not be necessary.

 

I've totally done this, on DFB badge runs and even then, even then, it fails.

 

..and then I do one with a number of self confessed new returnees and just given one line of guidance and its gone perfectly.

 

I've also lost my poop once or twice but I try to remember that you just dont know who is on the other side of the keyboard, you dont know how their day has gone and you certainly have no concept of what distractions (most likely far more important than this game) are happening in the background.

 

Leading TF's and retaining sanity is about patience and perspective...or at least thats the spirit I try so very hard to embody.

[Ukase]

4 hours ago, Icy Mike said:

Just a blanket reply to all of the "yOu ShOuLd AsK qUeStIoNs!" responses: this is a pretty illogical view. Teaching special, outstanding and very interested people a leadership skill is a much higher yield solution than demanding that an enormous pile of average folks become special, outstanding and very interested.

 

It just doesn't make any sense. If everyone was willing and capable to suddenly become more knowledgeable and competent... then we wouldn't really need leaders would we? Everyone would just be awesome. This also ignores my overall message... in that the people who you are blaming for a failure may not even know what questions they should have asked... or that there are any questions to be asked.

 

I'll put it another way... none of the people screwing things up are regularly checking and reading a forum about City of Heroes. Your perspective is that of a competent and interested player who would ask questions and do research. When I join a trial I always open up the wiki entry on it because I'm trying NOT to be "that guy." I'm also competent and interested. The big problem here is you want a bunch of incompetent and uninterested people to do things.

So...that's interesting to me. 
If these players are not interested and/or competent, why are they pursuing a badge? To me - that doesn't make sense. I can count on one hand the folks I've run into in game that have a badge count greater than 500 that were not both competent and interested. (that's not to say that there aren't competent/interested players with badge counts of less than 100 - there certainly are.) 

I'll concede the point though, you're making sense, as much as it pains me. And, what's worse, you're confirming something some of us have always thought. Our fellow players, on average, are simply not smart enough to read, or perhaps worse, can't be bothered to do so. This is what you're telling me, right? 

It's just my opinion, but I don't think a leader is supposed to dumb things down and spend needless moments of time explaining things to those who are joining a league or team in pursuit of a badge. The players should have experience in the same trial or task force prior to a master effort. Not just the leader - all the players. Again, that's just my thought on the matter. To have a new player expect to badge with no experience? That's an unfair burden on the rest of the team. Now - if you're in an SG - I'd expect the SG to break things down very clearly and be patient. But for a PUG Mo run? No, that's too much to ask. 

 

[Ruin Mage]

There's two distinct Master ofs.

The reason why Master of v1 (no deaths, no temps, and no incarnates now) fails is usually because someone got into a pickle they couldn't get out of. Mobs can be nasty if you get cocky, or if you pull too much. Now without a Barrier to save you, stuff like the Rikti or Ghost Widow are back to dangerous form. Someone somewhere forgot that stuff used to be a team effort and paid the price.

The reason why Master of v2 fails is because some of the challenge badges are very precise about their meaning & because sometimes you over-burn and overlap two mechanics. Occasionally there's a griefer. This is the challenge stuff like Avoid The Green Stuff, Bunker Buster, etc.

If a leader doesn't anything and there's a new guy on the team, well RIP in Pepperoni Slices.

[Excraft]

On 11/25/2021 at 5:45 PM, Icy Mike said:

It's the leader's fault almost every time.

 

This is an observation of every single trial, task force or raid team I have ever been a part of... but other than Master Of runs, it usually doesn't matter as you're still going to finish even though leaders are making this pretty significant mistake.

 

The end game content is almost ALL new to me. Sometimes when I'm on these, it's the very first time I've done the trial, let alone tried to do it in a specific way. The leaders of these are typically so well versed in the trial that they take for granted how little people know about it. In fact, many of the people joining your trials might not even know what "master of..." means or why anyone wants it. They may not even know that things they do keep the entire team from getting the badge. This is hard for people who are very competent and knowledgeable to wrap their brain around but it is common in nearly every field. The more advanced you are in a skill or subject, the further your perspective shifts away from the beginner's... until you become an experienced teacher of that discipline.

 

People like to be told WHY they are doing something. If we are not supposed to kill a certain person, or if we are supposed to stay in a certain area... it helps to be told why. "If anyone leaves this spot, we won't get credit for X." is a pretty simple way to cover things like this. If you're confused by this because "Duh... everyone knows why we're doing this" then you need to go back to the previous paragraph. People still might run ahead or lag behind or do the wrong thing, but I bet you would see a significant increase in compliance if you were just more thorough in your explanations instead of just assuming everyone already knows the play.

 

Not that I think you're entirely wrong, however it's your responsibility to speak up and let people know that you're a beginner/novice at these Master of runs and have a lot of questions.  Speaking up and letting others know where you're coming from doesn't hurt either. 

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

But hey, if refusing to learn and blaming all of your mistakes on others, instead of accepting some personal responsibility, is your thing then... Welcome to Twitter!  🙂 

Hahaha, I love this quote!