The Reason "Master Of..." Trials Fail (It's the leader's fault)

[Icy Mike]

It's the leader's fault almost every time.

 

This is an observation of every single trial, task force or raid team I have ever been a part of... but other than Master Of runs, it usually doesn't matter as you're still going to finish even though leaders are making this pretty significant mistake.

 

The end game content is almost ALL new to me. Sometimes when I'm on these, it's the very first time I've done the trial, let alone tried to do it in a specific way. The leaders of these are typically so well versed in the trial that they take for granted how little people know about it. In fact, many of the people joining your trials might not even know what "master of..." means or why anyone wants it. They may not even know that things they do keep the entire team from getting the badge. This is hard for people who are very competent and knowledgeable to wrap their brain around but it is common in nearly every field. The more advanced you are in a skill or subject, the further your perspective shifts away from the beginner's... until you become an experienced teacher of that discipline.

 

People like to be told WHY they are doing something. If we are not supposed to kill a certain person, or if we are supposed to stay in a certain area... it helps to be told why. "If anyone leaves this spot, we won't get credit for X." is a pretty simple way to cover things like this. If you're confused by this because "Duh... everyone knows why we're doing this" then you need to go back to the previous paragraph. People still might run ahead or lag behind or do the wrong thing, but I bet you would see a significant increase in compliance if you were just more thorough in your explanations instead of just assuming everyone already knows the play.

[arcane]

But often it's the stoner's fault who can't be arsed to pay complete attention.

[SuperPlyx]

It was my fault once . Was still learning the iTrial badge stuff and doing Keyes, get Anti-Matter health down but don't kill him. I was totally in scrapper-lock mode on my stalker.

I saw that little bit of health and popped him with my heaviest attack, boom Anti ded.....then I noticed chat...oops

[Luminara]

47 minutes ago, Icy Mike said:

People like to be told WHY they are doing something.

 

Then ask questions.  I have social anxiety disorder and I can ask for clarification when I feel it's necessary.  Rather than point your finger at someone else and complain, speak up.  Not doing so brings the blame full circle.

 

"You decide your own level of involvement." - Tyler Durden

[Snarky]

So. First. You are wrong

 

i do not say this because i am a leader.  I am not.  I hate leading

 

i am saying this because you are wrong

 

maybe the leader could spend more time organizing.  However i am lucky enough to be part of a very organized group that explains things meticulously.   Things still go wrong.  Many times things go correctly.  Good organization helps with that.  
 

fundamentally , and i cannot stress this enough, you are very wrong

[Techwright]

While I've definitely seen some leaders who provide little to no explanation, I've definitely seen a larger share of "Master Of..." trials where seasoned, near-universally respected leaders cannot get folks to pay attention.  I've seen multiple occasions where the leaders repeat the steps of the situation multiple times, before and during the trial, often in bold text or duplicating on bright-colored special channels (that all were informed about before going into the trial), and I've even seen a string of other players adding their pleas for people to pay attention only to see several members of the league still mow down the target with no regard to the reward goal or the instructions given repeatedly. The only thing I've not seen these incredibly patient leaders try is individually getting responses from each player going into the trial that they understand the instructions and will abide by them.  And frankly, that should not be necessary.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Techwright

[arcane]

13 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Then ask questions.  I have social anxiety disorder and I can ask for clarification when I feel it's necessary.  Rather than point your finger at someone else and complain, speak up.  Not doing so brings the blame full circle.

 

"You decide your own level of involvement." - Tyler Durden

Yeah, if you're joining a "Master of" anything, and you know enough to know that "Master of" means special requirements but not enough to know the requirements... yes you should be proactively trying to figure that out if you're going to join.

[Cobalt Azurean]

57 minutes ago, Techwright said:

While I've definitely seen some leaders who provide little to no explanation, I've definitely seen a larger share of "Master Of..." trials where seasoned, near-universally respected leaders cannot get folks to pay attention.  I've seen multiple occasions where the leaders repeat the steps of the situation multiple times, before and during the trial, often in bold text or duplicating on bright-colored special channels (that all were informed about before going into the trial), and I've even seen a string of other players adding their pleas for people to pay attention only to see several members of the league still mow down the target with no regard to the reward goal or the instructions given repeatedly. The only thing I've not seen these incredibly patient leaders try is individually getting responses from each player going into the trial that they understand the instructions and will abide by them.  And frankly, that should not be necessary.

QFMFT.

[Icy Mike]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

Yeah, if you're joining a "Master of" anything, and you know enough to know that "Master of" means special requirements but not enough to know the requirements... yes you should be proactively trying to figure that out if you're going to join.

 

My point was that a some of the people joining these trials do not in fact know what Master Of means... or that it means anything.

[Icy Mike]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Then ask questions.  I have social anxiety disorder and I can ask for clarification when I feel it's necessary.  Rather than point your finger at someone else and complain, speak up.  Not doing so brings the blame full circle.

 

"You decide your own level of involvement." - Tyler Durden

It's definitely easier to teach a very small group of competent, interested people a leadership skill then to teach everyone everywhere at all times to "ask questions" when they might not even know that they have questions.

[Icy Mike]

3 hours ago, Techwright said:

While I've definitely seen some leaders who provide little to no explanation, I've definitely seen a larger share of "Master Of..." trials where seasoned, near-universally respected leaders cannot get folks to pay attention.  I've seen multiple occasions where the leaders repeat the steps of the situation multiple times, before and during the trial, often in bold text or duplicating on bright-colored special channels (that all were informed about before going into the trial), and I've even seen a string of other players adding their pleas for people to pay attention only to see several members of the league still mow down the target with no regard to the reward goal or the instructions given repeatedly. The only thing I've not seen these incredibly patient leaders try is individually getting responses from each player going into the trial that they understand the instructions and will abide by them.  And frankly, that should not be necessary.

Right. Those are the ones I'm talking about. I've been on plenty of trials with seasoned, universally respected leaders who explained everything very thoroughly and at each step said what we are supposed to do. That's who I'm talking to. They almost never explain why... and I've only ever seen one guy explain what a "Master Of" run meant. I'm saying that explanations of the "why" will increase compliance. You will probably still get people who don't get it... that's why I said that.

[Icy Mike]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

So. First. You are wrong

 

i do not say this because i am a leader.  I am not.  I hate leading

 

i am saying this because you are wrong

 

maybe the leader could spend more time organizing.  However i am lucky enough to be part of a very organized group that explains things meticulously.   Things still go wrong.  Many times things go correctly.  Good organization helps with that.  
 

fundamentally , and i cannot stress this enough, you are very wrong

You can keep repeating that I'm wrong if you want, but it doesn't make it true or even compelling. I think it's a little odd that you think people don't like to be told why they are doing something when they are told to do something. I've never, ever heard anyone argue that before.

[Snarky]

10 minutes ago, Icy Mike said:

 I think it's a little odd that you think people don't like to be told why they are doing something when they are told to do something.

has nothing to do with my statement.  also, really crappy sentence structure.

 

my statement.  you are wrong.  specifically, you are wrong because most times it is not the leaders fault

 

most times it is a player who knows what they should be doing and fails.  sometimes it is this old game code glitching.  sometimes it is the leaders fault.  but that is not what you stated.  i disagree with your statement.

 

because you are wrong.

[Jitsurei]

20 minutes ago, Icy Mike said:

You can keep repeating that I'm wrong if you want, but it doesn't make it true or even compelling. I think it's a little odd that you think people don't like to be told why they are doing something when they are told to do something. I've never, ever heard anyone argue that before.

I led at least a hundred trials, and I explained the whys and how’s as you are requesting. While you may enjoy this, the average player responds with “zzz”. They may just stop reading, may still disregard all instructions, and may still just not have the experience needed to do things a certain way. I also prefer to know why things work the way they do, but not everyone does, and you’ll still get renegades no matter what. 

[Six-Six]

To me, there are two types of leaders: One is the commander. he oversees the entire scope of what needs to be done, what should happen, what can happen and what to do when things don't go as planned. He's the guy with the intel, the instructions, and the insight to have plan A, B, C, etc. There aren't a lot of leaders like this in the real world, and we can count the ones that history has venerated; but I have seen a few potential people with such qualities running leagues and trials. quite impressive. Then there's the spearhead. He's basically the guy who says "follow me"-- in short, he leads and others follow. He may or may not have a plan, but he does expect you to pull your weight, having almost utter trust that the troller will hold a mob, a fender will buff/debuff a teammate, the designated tank will pull aggro off from someone and take it himself, while the rest whittle away at the foes. Is one better than the other? hard to answer. But in both cases, should the mission fail, the onus is on each member for some reason or the other. while IT DOES fall on the leader to take responsibility for a job well done or gone wrong, each member is at fault some way or another.

If you as a member don't feel there's no clear instruction or strategy, speak up and say, hold on, I'm not too clear on this next part. If you think the guy with the star is leading you to certain death, then object. Do note though that having the star doesn't make one the leader.

[Veracor]

I have to agree.  After many MoTFs/iTrials led on Everlasting, I have observed that it really is mostly my fault if something fails.  Most causes of failure are from someone simply not understanding a pre-run instruction, rather than someone being a jerk about following them.  Should they have spoken up about what they're confused by?  Yeah.  But it's still my fault.  A lot of experienced players get on my case for having extremely long and detailed instructions for MoKeyes, but it has proven to make a significant difference in getting through it with new players in the league.

 

1. The leader is responsible for making sure people know what the run entails.  If they don't, the leader is responsible for explaining it to them.  If this is a league, the leader is also responsible for league management to help success, including equalizing levels or level shifts, ATs, and support among the teams.
2. The leader should be putting out detailed instructions before the run to give a plan of action, and then giving simpler versions of those instructions during the run to make sure everyone is on the same page.  You shouldn't be messaging people directly before the run starts unless it genuinely looks like they're going to be in over their heads.
3. During the run, the leader should be messaging anyone that doesn't seem to be following instructions and making sure they understand what's going on.  Sometimes it's just a cat on their lap distracting them.  At the very least make sure they didn't close their chat window after the run started (Yes, this is a thing).
4. If a squishy is bragging about how good their softcap build is and is running into melee range, it is still on the leader when they inevitably die to defense debuffs.  It is also on the leader to be chill and to tell the person what they need to do differently on the re-run.  Be informative and decisive about it, no matter how much it personally irks you.  Sometimes a dummy has to die first before they're open to any advice.
5. The leader is responsible for kicking griefers, and usually immediately as soon as they act.  You must be watchful and suspicious at all times, but also to not jump to conclusions until you get that split-second confirmation.  It is also the leader's responsibility to keep track of intentional leechers and to not invite them in the future.  The team/league's well-being is on the leader.
6. One thing that the leader is not really responsible for is experienced players running ahead of the league in good faith.  I don't care if it's your 100th MoUG run with me and you're simply moving down the hall to where we begin the bomb phase.  Don't go past me until I've run the bomb instructions so that newer players understand how the badge works.  I will give you the Incan of Shame back to my position if you do.

 

You have to be patient when leading public Mo runs.  While you should always shoot to win, in the grand scheme it's not a big deal to lose.  Try again tomorrow or next week.  Be observant for things you can improve upon and treat the failed runs as lessons.

[Magnificus]

Forget trials with special requirements, a third (or worse) of the people going into a safeguard mission cant read "Please wait or everyone to zone onto the map before heading straight to the bank." Some folks just do not give a shit and they are not reading the forums either.

 

(forums have a profanity filter right?)

Edited November 26, 2021 by Magnificus
oops guess that they dont.

[JasperStone]

17 hours ago, Snarky said:

So. First. You are wrong

 

i do not say this because i am a leader.  I am not.  I hate leading

 

i am saying this because you are wrong

 

maybe the leader could spend more time organizing.  However i am lucky enough to be part of a very organized group that explains things meticulously.   Things still go wrong.  Many times things go correctly.  Good organization helps with that.  
 

fundamentally , and i cannot stress this enough, you are very wrong

 

What Snarky said.

Also....what Snarky said

 

I do the iTrials on Indom, nightly runs for about two hours.

The leaders are fantastic and talk us thru everything.

Literally talk us through step by step.

 

Sometimes stuff happens and you miss out on Master of

Like inb BAF where you havew 5 seconds to go ...and a prisoner escapes....

 

Also ...it becomes clear some people have chat closed because they are Not following instructions and the screw up all our work.

[A Cat]

I haven't done the most MO runs but they have all been successful for me. Almost all of them have been lead by Veracor. They were all Everlasting TF's run ones anyway. The leaders seem to explain things pretty well imo. I never did any incarnate trials on live, and my first one was a MO Keyes run of all things, but the instructions were easy to follow even for a newbie like I was. 

[Ukase]

21 hours ago, Icy Mike said:

It's the leader's fault almost every time.

 

This is an observation of every single trial, task force or raid team I have ever been a part of... but other than Master Of runs, it usually doesn't matter as you're still going to finish even though leaders are making this pretty significant mistake.

 

The end game content is almost ALL new to me.

So, if I understand you correctly, you go on a "Master of" run, and have never done the content before? Or have only done it once or twice? 

Sorry, but while I do think a good leader should go out of their way to explain things when they can, whenever there's something you don't understand, it is incumbent upon YOU to ask questions. Even the best leaders are not mind-readers. They cannot anticipate all questions. 

I would encourage you to try and solo each TF (non-master) to experience these task forces and absorb how they play out. Some teams will go so fast, you afk for a drink, you'll miss a mission (or two). Teach yourself how things are, then you can lead a team and be as good as you expect a leader to be. 


 

[Ironblade]

21 hours ago, Icy Mike said:

It's the leader's fault almost every time.

I kind of agree with Snarky.  Or else my experience has been anomalous.

 

Pretty much every failed MO attempt I've been on has been due to people getting careless, overconfident or just stupid mistakes.  Like the MoITF where we had finished off Romulus and just had to pick off a few more random mobs to hit the total.  And a defender waded into a group and died.  Or the Lady Grey where the tank had the wrong inspirations when he went to tank the weakened Hamidon (he had Ambrosia from the Woodsman trial, instead of EoE).

 

Most failures that I've seen, the person KNEW WHAT TO DO but got overconfident, or misclicked, or forget to activate something, etc.

 

 

I see that Veracor agreed with your position.  I certainly concede that he has been on a HELL of a lot more Master runs than I have.  So, as I said, perhaps my experience is anomalous.

[Icy Mike]

19 hours ago, Veracor said:

I have to agree.  After many MoTFs/iTrials led on Everlasting, I have observed that it really is mostly my fault if something fails.  Most causes of failure are from someone simply not understanding a pre-run instruction, rather than someone being a jerk about following them.  Should they have spoken up about what they're confused by?  Yeah.  But it's still my fault.  A lot of experienced players get on my case for having extremely long and detailed instructions for MoKeyes, but it has proven to make a significant difference in getting through it with new players in the league.

 

1. The leader is responsible for making sure people know what the run entails.  If they don't, the leader is responsible for explaining it to them.  If this is a league, the leader is also responsible for league management to help success, including equalizing levels or level shifts, ATs, and support among the teams.
2. The leader should be putting out detailed instructions before the run to give a plan of action, and then giving simpler versions of those instructions during the run to make sure everyone is on the same page.  You shouldn't be messaging people directly before the run starts unless it genuinely looks like they're going to be in over their heads.
3. During the run, the leader should be messaging anyone that doesn't seem to be following instructions and making sure they understand what's going on.  Sometimes it's just a cat on their lap distracting them.  At the very least make sure they didn't close their chat window after the run started (Yes, this is a thing).
4. If a squishy is bragging about how good their softcap build is and is running into melee range, it is still on the leader when they inevitably die to defense debuffs.  It is also on the leader to be chill and to tell the person what they need to do differently on the re-run.  Be informative and decisive about it, no matter how much it personally irks you.  Sometimes a dummy has to die first before they're open to any advice.
5. The leader is responsible for kicking griefers, and usually immediately as soon as they act.  You must be watchful and suspicious at all times, but also to not jump to conclusions until you get that split-second confirmation.  It is also the leader's responsibility to keep track of intentional leechers and to not invite them in the future.  The team/league's well-being is on the leader.
6. One thing that the leader is not really responsible for is experienced players running ahead of the league in good faith.  I don't care if it's your 100th MoUG run with me and you're simply moving down the hall to where we begin the bomb phase.  Don't go past me until I've run the bomb instructions so that newer players understand how the badge works.  I will give you the Incan of Shame back to my position if you do.

 

You have to be patient when leading public Mo runs.  While you should always shoot to win, in the grand scheme it's not a big deal to lose.  Try again tomorrow or next week.  Be observant for things you can improve upon and treat the failed runs as lessons.

This is why you are most likely a very good leader. Most of the arguments against it being the leader's fault are still based around assuming a certain level of understanding and familiarity. I've seen leaders flip out and cuss and insult a guy for griefing a run including accusations that the guy knew exactly what he did... and the guy will chat back indicating he honestly had no idea.

 

And if you go back to the instructions, it often wasn't explained well.

[Albion]

23 hours ago, Icy Mike said:

This is why you are most likely a very good leader. Most of the arguments against it being the leader's fault are still based around assuming a certain level of understanding and familiarity. I've seen leaders flip out and cuss and insult a guy for griefing a run including accusations that the guy knew exactly what he did... and the guy will chat back indicating he honestly had no idea.

 

And if you go back to the instructions, it often wasn't explained well.

Veracor is one of the BEST, top notch, and also humble about it so of course he is going to agree with you, but I have to agree with the rest instead, most of the time fails happen because of the league/team members, not the leader, I have ruined runs, knowing what I was meant to do, and not knowing, I have seen others mess it up on purpose for "fun", I have seen players not giving two damns about the detailed indications and caring patience of leads, and yes I have seen leaders too not giving a damn about any strategy or composition and being the equivalent of French officers on trench warfare in WWI, but they are few; all in all your statements are too generic and coming from your personal perception, raids, trials, tf's, fail for several reasons, and the best way to deal with that is to be vocal about it, ask questions, make suggestions, contend decisions, visit the wiki, do a pre-run without pressure, who knows, you may end up leading your own runs and doing it properly.

[Icy Mike]

Just a blanket reply to all of the "yOu ShOuLd AsK qUeStIoNs!" responses: this is a pretty illogical view. Teaching special, outstanding and very interested people a leadership skill is a much higher yield solution than demanding that an enormous pile of average folks become special, outstanding and very interested.

 

It just doesn't make any sense. If everyone was willing and capable to suddenly become more knowledgeable and competent... then we wouldn't really need leaders would we? Everyone would just be awesome. This also ignores my overall message... in that the people who you are blaming for a failure may not even know what questions they should have asked... or that there are any questions to be asked.

 

I'll put it another way... none of the people screwing things up are regularly checking and reading a forum about City of Heroes. Your perspective is that of a competent and interested player who would ask questions and do research. When I join a trial I always open up the wiki entry on it because I'm trying NOT to be "that guy." I'm also competent and interested. The big problem here is you want a bunch of incompetent and uninterested people to do things.

[Solarverse]

On 11/25/2021 at 5:45 PM, Icy Mike said:

It's the leader's fault almost every time.

 

This is an observation of every single trial, task force or raid team I have ever been a part of... but other than Master Of runs, it usually doesn't matter as you're still going to finish even though leaders are making this pretty significant mistake.

 

The end game content is almost ALL new to me. Sometimes when I'm on these, it's the very first time I've done the trial, let alone tried to do it in a specific way. The leaders of these are typically so well versed in the trial that they take for granted how little people know about it. In fact, many of the people joining your trials might not even know what "master of..." means or why anyone wants it. They may not even know that things they do keep the entire team from getting the badge.

 

 

Ever try to get the badge in DFB? Even when you say something in chat and give details on how not to screw that up, one of the easiest badges to get in theory can be one of the most difficult because people (especially new players) seldomly read chat. So although the Leader saying something can greatly increase the odds for the team, it does not mean that the team is going to listen. In fact, judging from what I have seen players say on these very boards, there are those who just flat out don't like being told what to do and they will do what they want anyway. Just asking a player to refrain from using knock back on a team who is trying to focus on mass AoE is a sinful act these days, much less trying to get everyone to work together for a greater goal. I think there might be some Leaders who have learned that opening their mouth only leads to arguments, especially when you have that one player on your team that wants to override your direction and give direction of their own because their way is a "better way." I can't even count how many times I have seen leaders actually try to lead just to meet opposition from some know-it-all player who would rather join your team and dictate rules rather than start their own and dictate rules.

Just trying to give you a flip side to this and possible reasons why so many Leaders seldom speak up anymore.