Change Confront and Assassin's Strike into a distance-closing attack

[Rudra]

Apologies. DPA has always been and will always be damage per attack to me.

[Solvernia]

Just now, Rudra said:

How is quick-form AS higher Damage per ATTACK than the long-form which does... double? triple? that damage per attack?

Let's take a look in Mids.

 

You can see that Assassin's Strike out of hide does 153.5 damage with a cast time of 0.67s. This gives it a DPA of 229.1.

 

 

 

In hide, Asssassin's Strike does 389 damage with a 2.67s cast time. This gives it a DPA of 145.8.

 

If you put the chance to hide ATO proc in Assassin's Strike, you can follow AS up immediately with a critical hit from your strongest attack. Quick form AS, combined with a critical hit from your strongest attack, would do far more damage in the same amount of time than long form AS does.

 

 

[Uun]

4 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Are you really saying you'd rather spend all your time spamming taunt to get enemies to slowly walk over you, instead of instantly getting up in their face to do damage? It's a garbage power. No reason to take it except for RP purposes. Your epic pool targeted AoE does the same exact thing but is overwhelmingly better in every single way.

I can already get up in their face to do damage without using Taunt. Others have already listed the many forms of unsuppressed movement the game offers. But maybe I don't want to fight the enemies where they're standing. Maybe I want to separate two spawns that are close to each other. Maybe I want to combine two spawns that are close to each other. It's not a garbage power if you know how to use it. 

[Solvernia]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

So wait.. you can use outside powers for DPE arguments, but not for 'gap closing' arguments? Pick a side buddy, you can't have it both ways.

Yes? Ageless and Recovery Serum don't require you to waste a power pool choice. Ageless is an Incarnate power and Recovery Serum is a temporary power. You can swap incarnate powers in and out of your build freely in order to fit different situations. On my farmer, I have both Assault Core and Assault Radial, since Radial's doublehit is better if I'm already damage capped.

 

You can't swap pool powers in and out without respeccing, and you're very limited in that you can only have four power pools at once. This means having a gap closer inherent to the melee powerset would make things better than being forced to pick a specific pool power and potentially lock yourself out of others.

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Every modern MMO has gap closers for their melee characters

 

Scrappers have access to 20 primaries and 13 secondaries.  That's 260 possible combinations on one archetype, or about 1000 possible combinations across four archetypes.  I'm a bit out of the loop, but I don't think there are any other MMORPGs with 1000 possible melee builds (and that's not including SoAs, Kheldians or left field builds which build and use melee attack chains from pool and *PP powers).  Do you really expect all 1000 of those possible combos to be homogenized into a single class design just so you can avoid taking a pool power or building a character with better unsuppressed movement speed?

 

Demanding that existing powers be taken away from players using them and shoving your play style down their throats, because you refuse to exercise the options available, isn't going to get you anything but grief.  The HC team isn't going to yank Confront and/or Taunt out of the sets, no matter how hard you campaign for it, and the players you're arguing with aren't going to be shouted into agreement.  Play a primary or secondary with a "gap closer", or use a pool power (Combat Teleport, Teleport, Mystic Flight, Speed of Sound, Spring Attack), or build better.  Those are your options.

[Solvernia]

1 minute ago, Uun said:

I can already get up in their face to do damage without using Taunt. Others have already listed the many forms of unsuppressed movement the game offers. But maybe I don't want to fight the enemies where they're standing. Maybe I want to separate two spawns that are close to each other. Maybe I want to combine two spawns that are close to each other. It's not a garbage power if you know how to use it. 

You would still be able to do this. Melee powersets have ranged powers and epic pools do too. Ball Lightning for example would serve this purpose well as if you're a tank or brute it will taunt enemies too.

[Rudra]

You're the only one defending this thread. Take the hint.

[Solvernia]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Scrappers have access to 20 primaries and 13 secondaries.  That's 260 possible combinations on one archetype, or about 1000 possible combinations across four archetypes.  I'm a bit out of the loop, but I don't think there are any other MMORPGs with 1000 possible melee builds (and that's not including SoAs, Kheldians or left field builds which build and use melee attack chains from pool and *PP powers).  Do you really expect all 1000 of those possible combos to be homogenized into a single class design just so you can avoid taking a pool power or building a character with better unsuppressed movement speed?

 

Demanding that existing powers be taken away from players using them and shoving your play style down their throats, because you refuse to exercise the options available, isn't going to get you anything but grief.  The HC team isn't going to yank Confront and/or Taunt out of the sets, no matter how hard you campaign for it, and the players you're arguing with aren't going to be shouted into agreement.  Play a primary or secondary with a "gap closer", or use a pool power (Combat Teleport, Teleport, Mystic Flight, Speed of Sound, Spring Attack), or build better.  Those are your options.

You clearly haven't read anything I've posted, have you?

 

Every single melee powerset has confront/taunt. They are already homogenized. There would be no additional homogenization.

 

I'm not arguing for taking away existing powers. I'm arguing for augmenting them with a gap closer. The existing functionality of the powers would not change except that instead of bringing enemies (very slowly) to you, you will (very quickly) move to your enemies. Outside of very specific fringe cases, this changes nothing. Please read my posts more carefully in the future; I'm tired of having to explain this to everyone who has a knee-jerk rage reaction to the idea that change can be a good thing.

 

Taking an entire power pool choice for a single power from that pool is a waste. It would be better to incorporate the functionality of those powers into a power that already exists in every melee set, but is functionally useless. This would solve two problems at once: it would make the power functionally useful and worth taking, and free up a power pool choice. Nothing but improvements.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Uun]

13 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

You would still be able to do this. Melee powersets have ranged powers and epic pools do too. Ball Lightning for example would serve this purpose well as if you're a tank or brute it will taunt enemies too.

The ranged AoEs aren't available until lvl 41 or 44 (and have a 32 second recharge). Taunt is available at lvl 10 (tank) or 12 (brute). Not everyone PLs their characters to 50. 

 

Edit: and the epic ranged attacks don't taunt

Edited April 28, 2022 by Uun
added info

[Arbegla]

3 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Most of the opposition in this thread boils down to "I don't like change, please don't change anything, everything is fine as is". Not an argument.

 

My opposition to this thread isn't that I don't like change, its that this change legit doesn't make any sense, especially when you consider the other options available to suit your needs, including using a primary OR secondary power set that has the 'gap closer' you want.

 

Shield Defense -> Available to Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers has Shield Charge, which is a gap closer.
Elec Melee -> Available to ALL melee ATs, has Lightning Rod

Savage Melee -> Available to ALL melee ATs, has Savage leap.

 

That's 2 primaries, and 1 secondary that already includes the very thing you're advocating for.

[Solvernia]

3 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

My opposition to this thread isn't that I don't like change, its that this change legit doesn't make any sense, especially when you consider the other options available to suit your needs, including using a primary OR secondary power set that has the 'gap closer' you want.

 

Shield Defense -> Available to Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers has Shield Charge, which is a gap closer.
Elec Melee -> Available to ALL melee ATs, has Lightning Rod

Savage Melee -> Available to ALL melee ATs, has Savage leap.

 

That's 2 primaries, and 1 secondary that already includes the very thing you're advocating for.

 

It's a very simple and sensible change, for the following reasons:

 

• It is not fun to slowly walk up to a group of enemies before you're allowed to use your attacks.
• It is not fun to make a group of enemies slowly walk over to you before you're allowed to use your attacks.
• It is fun to quickly close the distance so you can use your attacks as soon as possible.
• It is not fun to have to take a specific powerset in order to do this.

 

Do you disagree with any of these statements? If so, why?

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Arbegla]

Just now, Solvernia said:

 

It is a very simple and sensible change, for the following reasons:

 

1) It's not fun to slowly walk up to a group of enemies before you're allowed to use your attacks.

 

2) It's not fun to make a group of enemies slowly walk over to you before you're allowed to use your attacks.

 

3) It is fun to quickly close the distance so you can use your attacks as soon as possible.

 

Do you disagree with any of these statements? If so, why?

 

I'm adding bullet points, just to address the statements specifically.

I disagree with all of them, for the following reasons:
 

1) Again, my, and others definition of 'slowly' is different than yours. Also, multiple melee sets also have a ranged attack.

2) See 1)

3) See my previous post about power sets that include a gap closer, and ranged attacks.
 

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

It is a very simple and sensible change, for the following reasons:

 

It's not fun to slowly walk up to a group of enemies before you're allowed to use your attacks.

 

It's not fun to make a group of enemies slowly walk over to you before you're allowed to use your attacks.

 

It is fun to quickly close the distance so you can use your attacks as soon as possible.

 

Do you disagree with any of these statements? If so, why?

Again, it is not slow. Unless you have walk on. Even with no Sprint, travel power, or fake travel power like Ninja Run, the amount of time it takes me just using normal move even to another room to find mobs, is not slow.

 

If you are waiting for the mobs to go to you as a melee, and you aren't already fighting something, then I can't help you.

 

We already quickly close the distance. And has been pointed out, no less than 3 power sets instantly close the distance as you are asking for.

 

In order for this to be a discussion, both sides must debate in good faith. You refuse to accept any argument given to you as being simply opposed to change, even when actual, honest to goodness reasons are given.

 

You are arguing in bad faith.

[Solvernia]

Just now, Arbegla said:

 

I'm adding bullet points, just to address the statements specifically.

I disagree with all of them, for the following reasons:
 

1) Again, my, and others definition of 'slowly' is different than yours. Also, multiple melee sets also have a ranged attack.

2) See 1)

3) See my previous post about power sets that include a gap closer, and ranged attacks.
 

 

Not every set has a ranged attack. Not every set has a gap closer. I shouldn't be forced to play only specific powersets in order to have functionality that should be a basic feature of every melee powerset as it is literally eveywhere else.

[Solvernia]

Just now, Rudra said:

In order for this to be a discussion, both sides must debate in good faith. You refuse to accept any argument given to you as being simply opposed to change, even when actual, honest to goodness reasons are given.

 

You are arguing in bad faith.

You spent the entire last page shitting up the thread with angry comments because you thought I was telling you that you were playing the game wrong. I don't think you are qualified to talk about arguing in good faith.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Solvernia]

4 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

1) Again, my, and others definition of 'slowly' is different than yours. Also, multiple melee sets also have a ranged attack.
 

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Again, it is not slow. Unless you have walk on. Even with no Sprint, travel power, or fake travel power like Ninja Run, the amount of time it takes me just using normal move even to another room to find mobs, is not slow.

 

Travel suppression in combat makes you slow. Moving at only 40-50mph and constantly jumping back and forth between that and full speed at essentially random due to bad and unnecessary mechanics is not fun.

[Rudra]

None of my comments were typed or meant in anger. If that is how they were taken, I apologize. Your own comments have taken "defensive" to a whole new plateau.

 

If the only ones responding to a thread are negative, then by consensus it is not accepted. Even if you consider those who do not care, because they do not care. They are neither for nor against. If the thread stays open for a while and all you get are "no", then maybe it is time to accept it and move on to the next idea.

[Widower]

Okay, I'm going to tell you all a little secret. If there's a suggestion made you really hate, do you know what's the best way to get people with colorful names to notice it? Yes, that's right, it's to make so many posts about how much you hate the suggestion that the thread grows three pages in an hour or two. If you don't want something to happen, perhaps you're better off ignoring the suggestion so nobody ever sees it. In other words: chill out.

[Solvernia]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If the only ones responding to a thread are negative, then by consensus it is not accepted.

 

Vocal minorities are not representative of an entire demographic. People are always going to more openly and frequently comment on things they don't like than what they do like. It's unreasonable to assume that four or five people opposing a thread is a 'consensus'.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

You clearly haven't read anything I've posted, have you?

 

Everything you've posted in this thread has been the same.  "Condense all melee to a single play style so I don't have to take pool powers".  I don't have to read that thirty times to get the gist.

 

10 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Taking an entire power pool choice for a single power from that pool is a waste.

 

And yet, players take one power from a pool and skip the rest every day.  Not because they have to, but because they want to.  Hasten.  IO mules.  One more power to finish an attack chain.  An extra movement power.  A single bonus power to use on a team or pet.  The game forces players to take at least one pool power by level 24, another by level 30, and four more pool or *PP powers after that, even if they don't want to.  It's utterly impossible to level to 50 without taking some pool powers.  Some of that is bound to be "a waste".

 

Amazingly, no-one's died because they had to take a pool power and didn't want to.  Yet.  You might be the first after you have your heart attack from the stress it's apparently causing you.

 

Also, as someone who builds for unsuppressed movement speed, I'm calling you out on your bullshit claims of Sprint/Swift/Hurdle being too slow (CJ doesn't buff Jump Speed, it's unnecessary unless you want the control mid-leap).  I peg 50+ mph unsuppressed Run/Jump Speed on several of my characters, and 63+ mph Jump Speed on a couple.  If you want to move faster, build for it.  It's not that hard, especially now, with a thriving economy, increased drop rates on high value recipes, PvP recipes dropping from PvE enemies, enhancement catalysts dropping from PvE enemies, free bases and empowerment stations which use standard salvage, day jobs building up much more quickly and even Safeguard/Mayhem missions opened to all levels so you can go back and pick up that 15% +Movement Speed if you missed it.  If you're slow, it's because you choose to be, and if you choose to be slow, you have no right to demand that the game change to compensate for that.  If you'd like some assistance refining your builds to improve movement speed, ask.

[Solvernia]

21 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Everything you've posted in this thread has been the same.  "Condense all melee to a single play style so I don't have to take pool powers".  I don't have to read that thirty times to get the gist.

 

This is nowhere near what I'm saying. You still aren't reading. Please read before posting.

 

When I make a suggestion, I consider carefully whether it would result in more fun overall, or less fun overall. Therefore I avoid making suggestions that remove things that already exist, and instead focus on suggestions that add or improve features without causing significant amounts of change.

 

There is absolutely no way that this addition would affect gameplay to such a degree that it would result in less fun overall. The majority of the arguments against it are centered around fringe use cases of the Taunt power in which having a movement component would be a detriment, or the classic "I don't want anyone to have more fun or more options, because I'm fine with the way things are" argument. The former is a fairly valid argument, but the latter is a harmful sentiment that has a long track record of causing problems throughout human history and should not be seriously entertained.

 

That being said, let me explain, again, how this addition would result in more fun:

 

Suppressed movement speed in combat is slow. 40mph is a third of what I can reach with Super Speed, and no matter how much speed you build for you won't get much more than that. 50mph isn't much faster and it's worthless to waste set bonuses going specifically after movement speed when you could be improving max HP, resists, def, etc. instead. 

 

Moving at 33% speed in combat and then randomly being shot around to full speed due to bad suppression mechanics is not fun.

 

Being locked out of taking other pool powers because you have to take Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport to have a gap closer is not fun.

 

Incorporating a gap closer into the useless taunt/confront powers would make them a better choice. It would make Taunt more effective and the Confront powers actually worth taking in the first place, resulting in more fun.

 

Since every single melee powerset already has taunt/confront, it would not result in any more homogenization than what already exists. There would be no reduction in overall fun.

 

The idea that giving every melee powerset a gap closer would make Elec and Savage less fun or meaningful to play is absurd, unless the idea of having access to something that other people don't is fun to you, in which case that's a pretty selfish way of thinking.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[El D]

Say that the devs did implement this change - that taunts as they currently exist get eliminated at the gap closing teleport is put in. What would replace that missing ranged taunt mechanic for overall gameplay? How would the content and challenges that require the use of a ranged taunt specifically to pull mobs from one location to where the player is/wants them to be get modified to work without it? Would Dwarf form Peacebringers and Warshades also have their taunt powers replaced with distance closers? What modifications would have to happen to the Treat Duration IO sets and enhancements to make sure they're still worth taking? Or would Treat Duration enhancements even still be slottable in this new power? What would happen to Scrappers who have taunt from their primary, and have it slotted, once the change was implemented and they no longer have any taunt power at all - a forced respec?

 

This would require a significant amount of gameplay changes across the board for missions, task forces, and trials, as well as respec'ing for a huge number of tank characters, and require all of Homecoming's players to adjust to the new style of default gameplay. Stepping aside from like or dislike, it just seems like way, way too much of a mechanical overhaul to feasibly implement.

[Solvernia]

11 minutes ago, El D said:

Say that the devs did implement this change - that taunts as they currently exist get eliminated at the gap closing teleport is put in. What would replace that missing ranged taunt mechanic for overall gameplay? How would the content and challenges that require the use of a ranged taunt specifically to pull mobs from one location to where the player is/wants them to be get modified to work without it? Would Dwarf form Peacebringers and Warshades also have their taunt powers replaced with distance closers? What modifications would have to happen to the Treat Duration IO sets and enhancements to make sure they're still worth taking? Or would Treat Duration enhancements even still be slottable in this new power? What would happen to Scrappers who have taunt from their primary, and have it slotted, once the change was implemented and they no longer have any taunt power at all - a forced respec?

 

This would require a significant amount of gameplay changes across the board for missions, task forces, and trials, as well as respec'ing for a huge number of tank characters, and require all of Homecoming's players to adjust to the new style of default gameplay. Stepping aside from like or dislike, it just seems like way, way too much of a mechanical overhaul to feasibly implement.

 

The sole change being discussed here is adding a teleport component to Taunt/Confront and possibly long form AS as well, to make it fair.

 

Nowhere did I say the taunt component of the power should be removed. Nowhere am I saying the power itself should be removed or replaced with an entirely new and different one.

 

There would be no change regarding enemy repositioning. If you want to move a group of enemies to a different location you can still do so. In fact, this would make it easier, since at melee range your aura and melee AoEs will be taunting even more enemies.

 

Peacebringers and Warshades in Dwarf form should have a distance closer too. No reason they shouldn't.

 

The overwhelming minority of Scrappers who, for some arcane and esoteric reason, decided to take Confront, will still have Confront. It will just have an additional teleport element to it. No other change. If for some equally unusual reason they decide that being able to jump into melee range is a deal-breaker, they can respec.

 

Homecoming is no stranger to making massive, sweeping changes to ATs -- just look at Blasters. However, adding a gap closer is not a massive, sweeping change. It's something that can already be done, this would just make it easier to do and make it a more natural part of the AT. This is a QoL improvement, not a groundbreaking paradigm shift.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Rudra]

Except by turning taunt into a teleport to target, whether or not it still taunts, you take away the ability to bring targets to you. As you said, not every power set has a ranged attack.

 

Examples:

A) My scrapper is running with a blaster. My scrapper is playing impromptu tank. A mob ignores me and goes for the blaster. I taunt that target, and now I am at that target and the mobs I was trying to keep away from the blaster follow me to the blaster.

 

B) My scrapper is looking at a room of death. There are multiple groups all within aggro radius of each other. My Savage Melee lacks any ranged attacks. I taunt the nearest mob, and am now suddenly in the room and everything I was trying to keep from aggroing has aggroed on me. And if I had wanted to just jump into the lot of them, I already had Savage Leap.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct "no" to "now".

[Arbegla]

I'm going to number these again, because I want to respond specifically to the points you're bringing up.
 

44 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

1) Moving at 33% speed in combat and then randomly being shot around to full speed due to bad suppression mechanics is not fun.

 

2) Being locked out of taking other pool powers because you have to take Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport to have a gap closer is not fun.

 

3) Incorporating a gap closer into the useless taunt/confront powers would make them a better choice. It would make Taunt more effective and the Confront powers actually worth taking in the first place, resulting in more fun.

 

4) Since every single melee powerset already has taunt/confront, it would not result in any more homogenization than what already exists. There would be no reduction in overall fun, unless the idea of having access to something that other people don't is fun to you, in which case that's pretty selfish.

1) Its not random at all, its actually about 3 seconds of not attacking iirc. I know this, because I used to PvP and travel suppression is a major feature you have to overcome to be a good PvPer, as it affects everyone, and a slow target is a dead target. Also, as @Luminara pointed out, you can easily get over 50mph combat speed, which is actually quite fast, especially in some of the smaller maps. Think the small caves, or the CoT maps. Anything above 50mph and you're going to literally be bouncing off the walls. Combat suppression is easily overcome by skillful use of attacks, 'jousting' or other movement tricks that PvPers and veteran players of City of Heroes have developed, outside of picking specific power pools and powersets.

2) As many people have pointed out, you literally can not play this game without taking some power pools. I've listed 3 of them that give you boosts to combat speed, and you've listed a 4th. That is a large number of power pools available to give you boosted combat speed, which you are required to take somewhere in your build already, due to the limited number of primary and secondary powers available to you.

3) Taunt is not useless. Many people have pointed that out. Confront, however is mostly useless, especially when you consider Taunt Auras in the secondary powers that are available to every armor set. But Taunt itself, which Brutes and Tankers have, is not useless at all. There are many uses for it, especially when handling multiple groups at once. Provoke, another power pool available, is also not useless, though it does hit less targets, and is less effective then Taunt. Would your proposal also convert Provoke into a gap closer?

4) I'm also finding it hard to understand exactly what you're asking for, as Taunt already pulls mobs to you due to the -range modifier. Which while you agree is a thing it does, because movement speed is involved, its too slow to accurately do what you want? Do you want Taunt/Confront to work like Wormhole/Fold Space? So the mobs are instantly teleported to you? Do you want Taunt/Confront to teleport you instantly to the mobs, like Shield Charge/Savage Leap/Lightning Rod? Why would this be better/faster then what is already available via power pools like Combat Teleport, Fold Space, Speed of Sound, and Spring attack? What problem are you actually trying to solve, using real world examples in THIS game, not comparing this to other games, which I've asked specific examples for, and you haven't provided.

Certain powerset combinations already have those powers built into them as mentioned above and there are power pools that lets you decide how best to approach the mobs. Under your proposal, would Savage Melee, Elec Melee, and Shield charge have 2 'gap closer' powers? What about those who are already picking the power pools available? Do they just get a potential 3rd gap closer?

Why are you taking away build diversity and uniqueness between the different melee sets to accommodate something that seems to only be a problem you are experiencing, as everyone else seems to either not care about travel suppression, or found ways around it that exist in the game now.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Arbegla
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