Seismic

[Tankshock]

Does the set synergy power of Recharge Reduction reduce base recharge or actual?  It would make a big difference for a power like Meteor.

Also, is there a guide that breaks down the mechanics?  I've only taken freshman City of Data.  😉

[Galactiman]

All recharge reduction is additive. So adjusted recharge of a power is RechargeTime / (1 + (TotalRechargeReduction / 100)) where TotalRechargeReduction is the sum of recharge reduction enhancements slotted into the power and any other global sources of reduction such as Hasten, buffs such as Speed Boost, set bonuses from enhancements, Alpha Incarnate, etc.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Galactiman

[Tankshock]

Are you sure that is true for Seismic?  City of Data lists it as "-x recharge".  Attack powers reduce other recharges by 1, Seismic Force reduces each by a different amount that scales up based on the base recharge.  It wouldn't have to do that if operated as a divisor.

[Onlyasandwich]

Ate you referring to the recharge buff conferred by seismic force when under seismic shockwave effect?

 

It so, this is a strict -seconds off current cooldown time of seismic blast powers, and not a %recharge buff. This isn't actually quite right - refer below.

 

The cooldown redux will depend on the power used while under this effect. For example, casting one of the lower tier blasts knocks 1-2 seconds off all seismic blast cooldowns, while casting your nuke cuts 20+ seconds off. Take a look at the power info on cod for exact numbers.

 

Note that this doesn't affect the power just cast, ie nuke doesn't cut its own recharge by 20 when cast.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[Tankshock]

Thanks.  From what I see on CoD for Corrupters, the basic attacks all reduce each other by 1 sec.  Meteor doesn't reduce anything.  Seismic Force reduces attacks by a varying amount, up to 25 sec for Meteor. 

So if you have Meteor recharging every 50 seconds, using Seismic Force AFTER casting Meteor reduces it to a 25 sec recharge, which is then further reduced by 1 for every other power used.  Incentivizes using the buff after the nuke, which is obviously counter-intuitive.

Just trying to understand how the new set works, so I don't build my toon bass-ackwards.

[Onlyasandwich]

I thought I had it, but I'm actually doubting myself again!

 

Reading CoD again, I think you are closer to the truth. 

 

I went in game and tested, and really none of the numbers make sense. In game, it seems like only the one time -seconds off cooldown happens when casting Seismic Force itself. If the "1 second" discounts are happening with other powers, it is imperceptible to me. 

 

Even then, in game it looks like Seismic Force casting takes off ~11 seconds of Meteor's charge time rather than the -25 seconds that CoD seems to indicate in the text of Seismic Force. Maybe it is somehow modified further by recharge rates after all? That would make rough mathy sense if so, as I have ~90% local recharge slotted in it. Would have to reslot the power and test to confirm if true.

 

It is a pretty wonky mechanic, but in practice more powerful than it may seem at first, especially at higher levels of recharge. The flat recharge effect is proportionally more powerful if you have high recharge, given the otherwise diminishing returns of more recharge.

 

If someone else has more precise info, I'd be very interested! Ultimately I found it a noticeable enough effect that I was able to drop hasten from my Seismic Blaster and make up the difference by timing my casts of Seismic Force appropriately. I was able to enable this a bit better perhaps on my blaster than on a corruptor though, as my secondary powers also contribute Seismic stacks to help me build back up in time for other powers that benefit.

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[Tankshock]

Wait, your secondary powers contribute Seismic stacks?

-Rech to base sounds more likely than to net, but a guy can hope.

[Onlyasandwich]

41 minutes ago, Tankshock said:

Wait, your secondary powers contribute Seismic stacks?

For blaster Seismic Manipulation, yes they do contribute Seismic stacks. This wouldn't apply to any other set on any AT.

 

I still suspect it is a different effect than an actual recharge % modifier, but that the -seconds shaved off is simply reduced in proportion to local recharge in the power as well.

 

The real effect is still obscure to me looking at CoD. Perhaps others will have more insight! 

 

I also found this better on a Blaster than you likely would on a Corruptor because I have actual Build Up to lean on as well. This means that I can use Build Up to buff (with gaussian's) pre-nuke, and then cycle in Force in the next rotation so Nuke cooldown is happenign.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[Bopper]

@Tankshock and @Onlyasandwich

 

The mechanic works off of the Base Cooldown of the power, so global/enhanced recharge will make those "1 second" reductions less impactful in practice (which is good, otherwise this would be a completely overpowered mechanic otherwise). I'll try to explain what is going on with the mechanic without going into painfully mathy language, but if you are interested in the mathy side of recharge I have a link in my signature block to a Recharge Guide.

 

The powers of Seismic Blast all have the following cooldowns:

Encase - 4s

Shatter - 7s

Rock Shards - 8s

Entomb - 11s

Upthrust - 16s

Tombstone - 12s

Stalagmite - 8s (16s if affected by Seismic Shockwaves and does more damage)

Meteor - 170s

 

Let's say you do a 5-attack rotation of:

Upthrust > Tombstone > Stalagmite >  Entomb > Rock Shards > Repeat

 

All of these attacks will effectively have new base cooldowns of

Upthrust - 12s (reduced by 4s)

Tombstone - 8s (reduced by 4s)

Stalagmite - 4s or 12s (reduced by 4s)

Entomb - 7s (reduced by 4s)

Rock Shards - 4s (reduced by 4s)

 

Now, let's assume you had 100% slotted recharge in all these attacks and you have another 100% global recharge. That means all these powers recharge in 1/3rd the time.

Upthrust - 12s/3 = 4s

Tombstone - 8s/3 = 2.67s

Stalagmite - 4s/3 = 1.33s

Entomb - 7s/3 = 2.33s

Rock Shards - 4s/3 = 1.33s

 

Keep in mind, you don't have to hit your target to get this reduction. It uses Activation Effect Groups to guarantee the benefit. Also keep in mind all the numbers I did above are for illustration purposes only. Obviously you only get the 1s reduction off of base cooldown if the power is on cooldown. 

 

I hope that helps, let me know if you have other questions.

 

 

[Onlyasandwich]

Thank you for the explanation,  @Bopper !

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Thank you for the explanation,  @Bopper !

 

Anytime, I'll add one more thing if it helps. If you want a ballpark* of the recharge reduction you will see in game, just take that 1s and divide it by your total recharge. So in the example I provided where each power had 300% total recharge strength, you would divide the 1s by 3.

 

 

*The reason why I say ballpark is because your total recharge strength can fluctuate over time (like when FF proc goes off). 

[Tankshock]

Thanks.  Not sure that a Nuke with high recharge going off every 25 seconds would be overpowered, especially since you have to do your buff after it in order for that to happen.

 

Do we know how much each Seismic Shockwave buffs Rock Shards and Stalagmite? Is it all or nothing?

 

Seems like Mids assumes those powers are buffed, at least for Corrupters. But I can't tell for sure.

[Tankshock]

@Bopper I think the math on the Seismic cooldowns is a little more complicated.  The reduction to recharge is a stepped function.  Using your example, Upthrust would have a recharge of 16/3*(whatever percentage of time it takes to fire Tombstone) + 15/3*(whatever percentage of time it takes to fire Stalagmite) + etc... (which doesn't really matter, because it's now recharged).  Meteor really is the only power that matters.

It's a very challenging set to understand.

[Bopper]

On 5/8/2022 at 5:58 PM, Bopper said:

I'll try to explain what is going on with the mechanic without going into painfully mathy language, but if you are interested in the mathy side of recharge I have a link in my signature block to a Recharge Guide.

 

2 hours ago, Tankshock said:

little more complicated.  The reduction to recharge is a stepped function

 

@Tankshock you're right, it is more complicated, which I tried to avoid getting into. More accurately, the reduction in recharge is an impulse response.

 

If you would like me to break down how it works in terms of the math, let me know. I have to take my dog to the vet in 20 minutes, but I can help out when I get back home.

[Tankshock]

Very kind of you, sir.  But I don't think it's necessary - the point is that it is considerably more complicated than a normal attack chain.  I'm really just interested in how to maximize Meteor, or whether it's even worth taking in a high end build.

Are the mechanics for Seismic Shockwaves explained anywhere? 

Hope the little Bopper is doing well.

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Tankshock said:

Are the mechanics for Seismic Shockwaves explained anywhere? 

I dont know if it's explained anywhere but the details are on CoD. What would you like to know? How the knockdown works? How you generate Seismic Shockwaves? How to spend it on a powerful attack?

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Tankshock said:

Very kind of you, sir.  But I don't think it's necessary - the point is that it is considerably more complicated than a normal attack chain.  I'm really just interested in how to maximize Meteor, or whether it's even worth taking in a high end build.

Are the mechanics for Seismic Shockwaves explained anywhere? 

Hope the little Bopper is doing well.

Little Bopper is doing well. For $300, I hope she's doing great. As for your question, here is my explanation on how I think Seismic Shockwaves works:

 

Everytime you cast a Seismic Blast attack while near the ground you will have a chance to proc Seismic Shockwaves. If it doesn't proc, your probability to proc in your next attack will increase by 30% (Earth Manipulation powers do this too, but it goes up by 15% instead of 30%).  

 

Your chance to proc Seismic Shockwaves starts at -20%. So you get the following probabilities to proc Seismic Shockwaves over time:

1st Attack: -20% (can never be proc'd)

2nd Attack: 10%

3rd Attack: 40%

4th Attack: 70%

5th Attack: 100% (guaranteed to proc)

 

When Seismic Shockwaves is active (successfully proc'd), it will last for up to 45s (you can spend/revoke this earlier with Seismic Force, Rock Shards, and Stalagmites - which will make those powers do something extra special). Also, Seismic Shockwaves will only be active while on the ground. If you start to fly or jump, it will turn off until you return back near the ground. Also also, while Seismic Shockwaves is active, you can't proc it again. Your probability to proc will be floored to something like -10,000%.

 

When Seismic Shockwaves is active it will have a chance to knockdown 1 target every 0.2s within a 15' radius. To do this, the target must be near the ground, not asleep, and haven't been knocked at anytime within the past 10s.

 

---

 

As for the recharge thing, I'll try to explain the performance with a little more math. First, let me try to change your perception on how recharge works. Often, we just think of the cooldown as a timer that needs to hit 0:00. Instead of thinking of recharge as a countdown, let's start thinking of recharge as a counter that goes up. When a power is on cooldown it must add/count up time units until it reaches its base cooldown value. So for example, Meteor has a base cooldown of 170s so we need to accumulate 170s worth of time units for the power to become fully recharged.

 

So how do we factor in recharge buffs and Seismic Blast's -RechargeTime effects? For simplicity's sake, let's assume the game updates the cooldown every 0.125s. If you have no recharge buffs, then every 0.125s of game time you will earn 0.125s of cooldown for your power. If you have 400% recharge strength (100% base + 300% global/enhancement), then every 0.125s of game time you will earn 0.500s of cooldown for your power. As your recharge buffs vary over time, the cooldown time you earn will change with it.

 

As for Seismic Blast's -RechargeTime, thats basically instantaneous cooldown credit. So let's say you have 400% recharge strength and you cast a Seismic Blast attack that grants -1s recharge, then for that 0.125s game time will earn you 1.500s of cooldown for your power.

 

So what does this do for Meteor? Every Seismic Blast attack you cast will give you 1s cooldown credit for Meteor. So let's say over a period of 40s you cast 20 Seismic Blast attacks, you will have earned 20s cooldown credit for Meteor. If Meteor has slotted 95% recharge and you have global 180% recharge, then Meteor normally experiences 375% recharge strength. Without Seismic Blast that would make Meteor recharge in 45.33s. But thanks to the 20s cooldown credit, your new recharge for Meteor would be 40s. Math shown below:

Normal Meteor Cooldown: 170s / 3.75 = 45.33s

New Meteor Cooldown: (170s - 20s)/3.75 = 40s.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Bopper

[Tankshock]

Awesome, that makes sense.  Didn't understand the -(0.2) for Shockwaves before.  What does "Melee_Ones" mean?

 

Man, that really makes Seismic Force suck.  If you use it as a buff for Stalagmite, it actually steals a lot of bonus damage by using up the Shockwaves.  Not sure I understand that logic.  I guess the optimal cast is with about 25 seconds left on Meteor.

 

Having Recharge count up makes sense, only took 18 years for me to find that out.   😉

[Shred Monkey]

On 5/8/2022 at 7:58 PM, Bopper said:

@Tankshock and @Onlyasandwich

 

The mechanic works off of the Base Cooldown of the power, so global/enhanced recharge will make those "1 second" reductions less impactful in practice (which is good, otherwise this would be a completely overpowered mechanic otherwise). I'll try to explain what is going on with the mechanic without going into painfully mathy language, but if you are interested in the mathy side of recharge I have a link in my signature block to a Recharge Guide.

 

The powers of Seismic Blast all have the following cooldowns:

Encase - 4s

Shatter - 7s

Rock Shards - 8s

Entomb - 11s

Upthrust - 16s

Tombstone - 12s

Stalagmite - 8s (16s if affected by Seismic Shockwaves and does more damage)

Meteor - 170s

 

Let's say you do a 5-attack rotation of:

Upthrust > Tombstone > Stalagmite >  Entomb > Rock Shards > Repeat

 

All of these attacks will effectively have new base cooldowns of

Upthrust - 12s (reduced by 4s)

Tombstone - 8s (reduced by 4s)

Stalagmite - 4s or 12s (reduced by 4s)

Entomb - 7s (reduced by 4s)

Rock Shards - 4s (reduced by 4s)

 

Now, let's assume you had 100% slotted recharge in all these attacks and you have another 100% global recharge. That means all these powers recharge in 1/3rd the time.

Upthrust - 12s/3 = 4s

Tombstone - 8s/3 = 2.67s

Stalagmite - 4s/3 = 1.33s

Entomb - 7s/3 = 2.33s

Rock Shards - 4s/3 = 1.33s

 

Keep in mind, you don't have to hit your target to get this reduction. It uses Activation Effect Groups to guarantee the benefit. Also keep in mind all the numbers I did above are for illustration purposes only. Obviously you only get the 1s reduction off of base cooldown if the power is on cooldown. 

 

I hope that helps, let me know if you have other questions.

 

 

 

I've done a lot of playing with this set before I could find the details online... then I found the details and confirmed my testing.  The above sounds correct, but with 1 minor exception.  The -1 sec occurs sometime in the middle of an activation (or maybe it's a server/client lag thing), so if that last -1 sec is what takes a power off cooldown, you can't always have it queued and fire immediately without a gap in your chain.  It's best to use -3s instead of -4s in your maths.  That 4th second occurs, but it's a timing thing.

 

For example, In theory I have enough recharge to use the following chain of:

 

Shatter> Tombstone > Shatter> Upthrust > Rock Shards > repeat.   

 

But In practice I use Encase instead of Shatter because that 2nd Shatter isn't actually off cooldown at the end of the Tombstone .  It does get the -1 second from using Tombstone , but not in time to be triggered immediately following Tombstone with no gap.

  

Edited May 16, 2022 by Shred Monkey

[Shred Monkey]

On 5/8/2022 at 3:49 PM, Tankshock said:

Incentivizes using the buff after the nuke, which is obviously counter-intuitive.

 

Here's the trick.  You jump and then click the buildup.  Because you're not on the ground it won't consume seismic shockwave but you still get the buildup.  Then you can burn SS on one of your other finishers.  You don't get the cooldown reduction, but you do get the buff on your nuke and can still use SS with another power.  You have to wait just a beat after leaving the ground before clicking because it takes a moment for seismic shockwave to drop off.  But this works well. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Shred Monkey

[Tankshock]

Good pro tip.  So Stalagmite isn't part of your attack chain?  Isn't it the highest dam power when enhanced?

[Shred Monkey]

29 minutes ago, Tankshock said:

Good pro tip.  So Stalagmite isn't part of your attack chain?  Isn't it the highest dam power when enhanced?

I swap it in and out with rock shards depending if I'm doing ST or AoE damage.   I actually also switch the order between upthrust and tombstone so I can juggle AoE knockdowns with upthrust and rockshards.