KB to KD toggle

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, 723wolf said:

People seem passionate about this. I agree with the sentiment that most people who slot the kb->kd do it begrudgingly because the rest of the set bonuses don't help with the main reason I slotted it in the first place.

 

I think a potential fix would be to make overwhelming force a global proc, so that if you equip the enhancement all your powers are kb->kd. The sudden acceleration can remain the same to be used when you only want some powers to change. Well except also remove that chance for kb in overwhelming force, why is that even on there? 

 

Definitely do not want this.  I want to change my KB -> KD in Nova, and only in Nova, and I sure as hell do not want to slot Sudden Acceleration in Nova.  Overwhelming Force is my saving grace here.

 

If I had two powers I needed to slot KB -> KD in (which is to say, if I wasn't a hoverblaster who can use Hover to turn my Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast KB into KD as needed), I'd have to slot Sudden Acceleration in one of them, which would suck, and it's to help people who are in that situation that I made my suggestion of adding another attack set - this one not unique - that has a KB -> KD in it in another thread.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stormwalker
grammar fix

[Mythical Creature]

9 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Definitely do not want this.  I want to change my KB -> KD in Nova, and only in Nova, and I sure as hell do not want to slot Sudden Acceleration in Nova.  Overwhelming Force is my saving grace here.

 

If I had two powers I needed to slot KB -> KD in (which is to say, if I wasn't a hoverblaster who can use Hover to turn my Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast KB into KD as needed), I'd have to slot Sudden Acceleration in one of them, which would suck, and it's to help people who are in that situation that I made my suggestion of adding another attack set - this one not unique - that has a KB -> KD in it in another thread.

 

I forgot that Overwhelming Force also had a damaging component because it also has a knockback proc which is why I feel forced into using Sudden Acceleration. 

 

I guess in light of that info I would amend my suggestion to say that the +damage should be added to the sudden acceleration enhancement so that more or less the choice is, do I want kb->kd for all my powers or just one or a few?

 

I think what really kills me is how much of a burden I feel to my team with knockback so much that I can't really play knockback and have a good time without seriously hindering my characters build. If I could just throw overwhelming force on kick or brawl and be done with it, I would and I think many others would as well. 

[Stormwalker]

28 minutes ago, 723wolf said:

 

I forgot that Overwhelming Force also had a damaging component because it also has a knockback proc which is why I feel forced into using Sudden Acceleration. 

 

I guess in light of that info I would amend my suggestion to say that the +damage should be added to the sudden acceleration enhancement so that more or less the choice is, do I want kb->kd for all my powers or just one or a few?

 

I think what really kills me is how much of a burden I feel to my team with knockback so much that I can't really play knockback and have a good time without seriously hindering my characters build. If I could just throw overwhelming force on kick or brawl and be done with it, I would and I think many others would as well. 

 

I don't really want to change Sudden Acceleration because, as @Rudra pointed out to me, some people would like it and use it the way it is.  I mean, I don't think anyone would object to a straight buff of the set* (i.e. just adding damage to it), but some people might actually want to keep all the KB enhancement that is in it and wouldn't want to trade it out.

 

Again, this is why my suggested solution is a new IO set that doesn't spend most of its enhancement value on KB (like Sudden Acceleration), and isn't unique (like Overwhelming Force, which is just fine except for being unique) but does have the KB -> KD function. 

 

Or else, as someone else suggested, making Overwhelming Force not unique, but some might consider that to be too strong.  My goal here isn't power creep, it's just to give people who feel pressured into slotting KB -> KD to make their teammates happy a better option for doing so.

 

* Well, realistcally, a lot of people would (rightfully) object to a straight buff of the set on grounds of power creep, but... probably not the people who are actually slotting it!

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Mythical Creature]

I can agree those changes would be helpful, it sucks that sudden acceleration set bonuses does the opposite of what you want, I don't get what the point of that is. 

 

It would be nice to have a choice to slot one thing for a global kb->kd or individually per power but I would settle for at least a set worth taking to achieve that goal. 

[Stormwalker]

2 minutes ago, 723wolf said:

I can agree those changes would be helpful, it sucks that sudden acceleration set bonuses does the opposite of what you want, I don't get what the point of that is. 

 

It would be nice to have a choice to slot one thing for a global kb->kd or individually per power but I would settle for at least a set worth taking to achieve that goal. 

 

Well, as was pointed out to me by @Troo on the other thread, the KB enhancement in the Sudden Acceleration set isn't completely nullified by the KB -> KD IO.  It does still increase the Magnitude of the knockdown effect, which means you should get knockdowns on knockdown-protected enemies more easily.  The problem is that this isn't very useful in the particular powers that people like energy blasters are pressured to slot KB -> KD in (i.e. Nova, Explosive Blast, Energy Torrent) because those are slow-cycling powers where the KD-stacking won't be effective and additionally are powers that are counted on for high damage output in teams (which is to say, AoE powers).

 

Sudden Acceleration as it is might actually be useful in a fast-cycling single-target power, but there's very little pressure to slot KB -> KD in single-target powers because single-target KB is much less of a problem in teams than AoE KB.'

 

Thus, a damage set with KB -> KD would meet the needs of those players much more effectively than Sudden Acceleration does.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, 723wolf said:

People seem passionate about this. I agree with the sentiment that most people who slot the kb->kd do it begrudgingly because the rest of the set bonuses don't help with the main reason I slotted it in the first place.

 

I think a potential fix would be to make overwhelming force a global proc, so that if you equip the enhancement all your powers are kb->kd. The sudden acceleration can remain the same to be used when you only want some powers to change. Well except also remove that chance for kb in overwhelming force, why is that even on there? 

The reason Overwhelming Force has the chance for KD is because it is a universal damage set. So it can be slotted into powers that don't do KB. So powers that do KB, Overwhelming Force converts it to KD. For powers that don't do KD, they now have a chance to do KD.

[thunderforce]

4 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Because I don't want to join a team and have the team leader tell me, "Turn the KD toggle on or leave."  Which would absolutely happen, based on my previous experience with teaming as an energy blaster on Live.

Has whatever happened to you on live happened on Homecoming? My experience is once the early months were over and people's live habits faded, teams were enormously more relaxed about that sort of thing - it turns out, say, tankers' heads don't explode if you dare attack a single mob before they have neatly arranged every enemy they can exactly as they please. That said, I play on Reunion which has a distinctly different culture in some respects.

 

I do agree that if this happened it would be a problem; it's a legitimate concern. I'm not sure it's a bigger problem than the same tosser telling you "reslot your powers or leave".

[thunderforce]

4 hours ago, 723wolf said:

I think a potential fix would be to make overwhelming force a global proc, so that if you equip the enhancement all your powers are kb->kd.

The OP discusses how approaches that depend on messing around with unslotters every time you go from a fun team to a no-fun team aren't ideal.

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, thunderforce said:

Has whatever happened to you on live happened on Homecoming? My experience is once the early months were over and people's live habits faded, teams were enormously more relaxed about that sort of thing - it turns out, say, tankers' heads don't explode if you dare attack a single mob before they have neatly arranged every enemy they can exactly as they please. That said, I play on Reunion which has a distinctly different culture in some respects.

 

I do agree that if this happened it would be a problem; it's a legitimate concern. I'm not sure it's a bigger problem than the same tosser telling you "reslot your powers or leave".

 

I haven't been in any teams with my Energy Blaster on Homecoming because I get headaches whenever I join teams because of the sound stacking problem and some sound sensitivity issues that I have.  This was actually a problem on Live, too, though back then I didn't know why.  Fortunately, this will be fixed when Page 4 goes live!

 

That said, I have played a lot of MMO's.  And one of the universal truths of MMO's is that some party leaders think they are God, and try to make everyone else play their way.  There might be less of those people on HC (because HC seems to have a more mature player base than most MMO's, probably because most of us are old CoH Live vets), but I guarantee you there are still some of them.

[thunderforce]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

I am against the free advantage on specific powers. I don't care if it saves 1 slot. I don't care if it saves 1 million slots. I don't care about the slots. I care about the fact this thread is effectively asking for a free advantage.

It's not because it is not an advantage to me (except, I guess, in terms of the social business of finding teams). If Tornado or Bonfire knock mobs down not back they are _worse powers_. I'm asking for a way to have making them worse, a thing I don't much like doing but am willing to for the sake of an easier life sometimes, made slightly less awkward; I hope this may also please players who don't like knockback because they'll find it easier to recruit people who do to teams without being annoyed by it.

 

To anticipate your next reply; no, your belief that "better as in XP/hour matters" is not somehow more objectively correct than mine that "better as in more ragdolling everywhere matters".

 

You may care about one slot (frankly completely ridiculous as that is in the game we have; it wouldn't even make the list of the top hundred balance issues); I don't for a variety of reasons including that I wouldn't actually gain a slot if the proposed change was made.

 

That said, if we are going to pretend it's a serious issue, by all means the implementation could be to make the KB-to-KD IOs be "enable the KB-to-KD toggle" IOs. Bit clunky, but I could live with it.

Edited July 19, 2022 by thunderforce

[thunderforce]

7 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

That said, I have played a lot of MMO's.  And one of the universal truths of MMO's is that some party leaders think they are God, and try to make everyone else play their way.  There might be less of those people on HC (because HC seems to have a more mature player base than most MMO's, probably because most of us are old CoH Live vets), but I guarantee you there are still some of them.

I couldn't even tell you the last time I met one. Not this year. Of course, your experience may vary... but on reflection I think a feature that will cause those people to immediately and unequivocally identify themselves as soon as possible would be a good thing just because of that. Saves time figuring it out anyway and quitting.

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, thunderforce said:

I couldn't even tell you the last time I met one. Not this year. Of course, your experience may vary... but on reflection I think a feature that will cause those people to immediately and unequivocally identify themselves as soon as possible would be a good thing just because of that. Saves time figuring it out anyway and quitting.

 

Well, when I was back on Live, I was generally able to win those players over by demonstrating to them that, properly used, Knockback can be an asset to the team rather than a detriment.  But that requires being given a chance, and when you dangle an "easy" solution to their "problem" (their problem being that they hate Knockback) they're less likely to actually give that chance.

 

Without the toggle, a party leader is essentially forced to choose between a). accepting that the energy blaster has knockback and hoping they're telling the truth when they say they know how to manage it, or b). kicking them out of the party just for being an energy blaster and risking having the party rebel.  Note that I did a couple of times on Live see party leaders actually choose option b), and I quit a couple of parties (in which I was not the energy blaster in question) because of that.

 

Adding such a toggle gives that party leader a third option: c). demand the energy blaster turn off their knockback and make THEM look like the badguy for refusing to do it.

 

I'd sooner not give them that option.

[thunderforce]

8 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Well, when I was back on Live, I was generally able to win those players over by demonstrating to them that, properly used, Knockback can be an asset to the team rather than a detriment.

I was born in the mid-70s. I mention this because it's somewhat relevant; I have reached a point in life where I simply cannot be arsed to spend my time on that sort of person. Couple that with the fact that they're much rarer on HC and it seems certain that I will never do this and will never be denied the opportunity to do it by the feature I propose.

 

Now, I appreciate you may well be more willing than me to do that, not least because you couldn't be less willing; for all I know you also are my age, or older, but have retained more patience than I have. So yes, I understand that to you personally this proposal has a downside; but given (as discussed) those people seem much rarer now (when did you last team with a team leader who was a live-style control freak about _anything_?) I'm not sure it could be a very large downside for you, and I think it is extremely likely the total upside for the playerbase enormously exceeds the total downside for people like you (indeed, I think the net benefit from making it easier to identify control-freak team leaders alone might justify this proposal.)

 

I'm not trying to dismiss the concern; but I think one has to recognise that someone's gameplay is damaged by essentially any change, sometimes someone is you (or me), and it can still be a good change overall even if someone is less happy - and the game could not be changed in _any respect_ if finding that someone meant a new feature could not be developed. In this particular case - and yeah, Reunion may be odd - I don't even know if the kind of players who cause the concern even exist anymore.

[Stormwalker]

4 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

I was born in the mid-70s. I mention this because it's somewhat relevant; I have reached a point in life where I simply cannot be arsed to spend my time on that sort of person. Couple that with the fact that they're much rarer on HC and it seems certain that I will never do this and will never be denied the opportunity to do it by the feature I propose.

 

Now, I appreciate you may well be more willing than me to do that, not least because you couldn't be less willing; for all I know you also are my age, or older, but have retained more patience than I have. So yes, I understand that to you personally this proposal has a downside; but given (as discussed) those people seem much rarer now (when did you last team with a team leader who was a live-style control freak about _anything_?) I'm not sure it could be a very large downside for you, and I think it is extremely likely the total upside for the playerbase enormously exceeds the total downside for people like you (indeed, I think the net benefit from making it easier to identify control-freak team leaders alone might justify this proposal.)

 

I'm not trying to dismiss the concern; but I think one has to recognise that someone's gameplay is damaged by essentially any change, sometimes someone is you (or me), and it can still be a good change overall even if someone is less happy - and the game could not be changed in _any respect_ if finding that someone meant a new feature could not be developed. In this particular case - and yeah, Reunion may be odd - I don't even know if the kind of players who cause the concern even exist anymore.

 

We're about the same age, for what it's worth.

 

As for those players existing... I guarantee they do.  Based on my Live experiences, I would be willing to bet that most of them are on Excelsior.  Nothing against Excelsior, mind you, it's just that those kind of players tend to gravitate to the most populated server.  When I had my worst experiences on Live, it was when I was playing on Justice, for exactly the same reason.  After I moved to Virtue, things were generally much better (though I still ran into people like that from time to time, it was a lot less often!)

 

It's funny how we get less patient with some things as we get older, and more patient with others?  Or maybe we just have a better sense of what we're willing to spend that patience on?  Because I am also definitely less patient with that kind of player than I once was, make no mistake.  But part of that impatience leads me to stubbornly resist handing them any kind of weapon to use against others.

[thunderforce]

25 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

As for those players existing... I guarantee they do.  Based on my Live experiences, I would be willing to bet that most of them are on Excelsior. 

Realistically, yeah, there's always going to be someone (and I agree re Excelsior). But I think it seems much less likely they exist in such numbers that you, or someone like you, is going to be troubled by "toggle or quit" other than extremely infrequently. (Of course, this also means that someone like me won't be pleased by "toggle or quit" -> "oh good, immediate identification of bad team leader" other than extremely infrequently.)

 

Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, or Reunion really is much nicer even though I play on it and I'm not very nice. (Or, a cynic would say, no-one can get a team on Reunion because it has no players - but joking aside, it's quiet, not dead.)

Edited July 20, 2022 by thunderforce

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, thunderforce said:

It's not because it is not an advantage to me (except, I guess, in terms of the social business of finding teams). If Tornado or Bonfire knock mobs down not back they are _worse powers_.

You and I have a very different definition of advantage versus disadvantage. Tornado and Bonfire keeping the target in its damage effect is an advantage to me. They can't fight back because of being bounced. And they stay in the effect that keeps bouncing them while taking damage from it? Yeah, I'm not going to say you're wrong because I'm sure you have your reasons. but I definitely do not see that as a disadvantage.

 

1 hour ago, thunderforce said:

To anticipate your next reply; no, your belief that "better as in XP/hour matters" is not somehow more objectively correct than mine that "better as in more ragdolling everywhere matters".

That was not going to be my response. My response is above. I don't bother tracking xp/hour. I don't even track DPS.

 

1 hour ago, thunderforce said:

You may care about one slot (frankly completely ridiculous as that is in the game we have; it wouldn't even make the list of the top hundred balance issues)

I've said repeatedly it is not about a single slot. You keep refusing to acknowledge my answers and keep focusing on a facet I have told you repeatedly it has nothing to do with.

 

You're fixated. You don't even acknowledge what I say. I'm done bashing my brains out just to be ignored. I made my case. You chose to ignore it. What happens, happens.

[thunderforce]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You and I have a very different definition of advantage versus disadvantage.

Well, yes. To me the advantage is in having more fun which for me - personal choice - is quite closely related to, among other things, enemies being knocked back, sideways, over cliffs and I would say "knocked up" but that might be misinterpreted. If that happens less it's a disadvantage.

 

You seem to be talking about game-mechanical efficiency - maybe effective defence by soft control not DPS - but either way I don't care very much, if anything I think the game could do with being a bit harder, and as far as possible I want to _not have_ this supposed advantage.

Quote

That was not going to be my response. My response is above. I don't bother tracking xp/hour. I don't even track DPS.

I think it's essentially the same response; I was wrong about what kind of game-mechanical efficiency you were on about, that's all.

Quote

I've said repeatedly it is not about a single slot.

Indeed. However, the supposed "free advantage" this change would convey can often be had now with the expenditure of one slot, so it _is_ about a single slot.

Quote

You're fixated. You don't even acknowledge what I say.

I am, yes, a bit fixated on the way you have repeatedly characterised my request as "asking for a free advantage" when I was doing nothing of the kind. I tend to concentrate on things people say about me which are both demeaning and false. I think most people do and you should not be surprised when it happens.

 

However, I have in the course of this thread alone made two further suggestions which as far as I can tell entirely overcome your objection even though I think that objection is absurd. I'm not sure why that isn't acknowledging what you say.

Quote

I'm done bashing my brains out just to be ignored. I made my case. You chose to ignore it. What happens, happens.

I'm quoting this because I'm an awful cynic and I think there might just be a _tiny_ chance it turns out to have been slightly misleading.

[Troo]

On 7/17/2022 at 1:17 AM, blue4333 said:

Yeah I agree with adding the KB - KD toggle. I play an Energy Assault and I feel bad whenever my powers knock enemies back at a random probability.

 

Maybe get better at Energy Assault.

Random?!

That's what I meant to do.

 

A good knockback player can knock mobs into a teammates AoEs.

Players can figure out when knockbacks are helpful and when to lay off. We don't have to use all our powers all the time. Choices -> Consequences

[Talsiar]

Just adding another vote for a change, just about any at this point, to reduce the amount of slotting in KB prone power sets.  Worked out a really fun NRG/MA Blaster I'm now scrapping to Rad Blast because NRG loses 5 6 piece bonuses, cutting my ranged defense by about 18% and my Melee D by 3.75%.  I was able to work around it on my PB, but it feels suboptimal to have to do so.

 

For my part, I don't think the toggle is the right way to do it, because I don't think the toggle would fix MM Bots from having ludicrous levels of KB, and Robot MMs already have a lot of slot tax problems.  I also acknowledge some people want KB in certain situations, even if I don't understand it and would be just as happy if they removed it from the game.  Ideally I would have wished most damage focused powers were .67 mag with KB sets having good stats and set bonuses, justifying their existence and maybe getting some occasional use, but yes realistically you'd be judged for adding/ever knocking back a target, similar to how people are judged for doing so now.

 

I can't think of a solution that hasn't been talked/debated/shotdown/resurrected/beaten to death already, but I think ignoring the problem and/or saying just get good (functionally the exact same argument as 'turn on the anti KB toggle or quit group') isn't the right answer.  There's a fundamental design flaw in how KB has been over applied to damaging powers for thematics instead of judiciously added to a couple to give sets utility, and I don't think the onus should be on players to work around the problem.  Not really fair to make it the problem of the devs either at this point, but I think a fix at the code/design level is better than not.

[thunderforce]

1 minute ago, Talsiar said:

For my part, I don't think the toggle is the right way to do it, because I don't think the toggle would fix MM Bots from having ludicrous levels of KB

I don't see why it _wouldn't_ apply to a MM's minions.

[Talsiar]

My understanding (based off inference, I have by no means looked at code and am not an authority on how CoH works) is that buffs to a character, such as Damage Bonus, To Hit Bonus, Recharge Bonus prior to MM pets ignoring recharge enhancements, defense bonuses, resistances and the like, would not transfer to MM pets.  Similar to how if thermal radiation hits an MM with Forge, none of the minions are getting the damage/toHit buffs because that's done as an effect to the player, not as an enhancement to the power.  Likewise, I don't know that any power with a psuedo pet would actually get the effects of that toggle, because the pseudopet itself wouldn't have the toggle running, so my assumption is that Bonfire wouldn't actually have reduced KB anyway.

 

I guess you could make the toggle an AoE similar to Supremacy, affecting only MM's owned henchmen (and other spawned pet entities like time bomb, trip mine, but exclude from bonfire?), with an exceedingly large range and no LoS check or something?  Or maybe coded similar to spirit ward, a toggle that maintains the buff on all MM pets that were nearby when activated.  I'm not sure, but both feel like square peg -> round hole solutions, it'll work if someone bashes it enough but it's not going to be pretty when it's done.

[thunderforce]

16 hours ago, Talsiar said:

My understanding (based off inference, I have by no means looked at code and am not an authority on how CoH works)

This kind of speculation based on implementation details would not be very helpful _with_ some familiarity with the code. Without, I'm afraid it really is completely pointless. Yes, it wouldn't work exactly like any existing power - no more than Bodyguard mode did when it was implemented. No, that isn't a reason to suppose it would be hard to implement.

[Talsiar]

I appreciate your position that people who haven't looked at the code shouldn't make technical recommendations.  Having looked at the power data I can actually now say that MM pets are specifically flagged to not accept caster mods to the power, while Bonfire is flagged to allow those mods, so at base level a toggle for the MM would actually be completely useless for their pets but successfully make their version of Bonfire overpowered.

 

Since we are now in a situation of having to apply some amount of unique code to the solution, I feel moderately confident in saying it's no longer as simple as making a toggle power that applies % reduction to KB strength to the user and call it a day.  The point remains valid that I am not versed in the code base enough to say how complicated that problem is, nor would I attempt to.  I'll leave considerations for that to the development team, as well as the detailed pro's and con's for any given solution since they have both more vested interest and greater insight than most people here would. 

 

Per the stickied thread, I'm just providing feedback on a thing that is a pain point to me, and my hope that whatever solution is chosen I would like it to:

 

1) Help every character class, including MMs, and not be a bandaid fix that helps 90% only.  This is mostly because the odds of the last 10% getting a fix are greatly diminished once the greater portion is appeased

2) Preferably a change that does not penalize people who want KB on some/all of their powers.  I may not understand their preference to have such and may not use a system that allowed such, but I don't want their opinions quashed for my own play style.

 

That said, as I'm sure the devs have read pretty much every possible suggestion or recommendation of a fix since live, I'll refrain from any further speculation and just reiterate my support for a change whenever a thread or opportunity to do so arises.

[Legion of One]

If Knock of any kind had its own additional damage associated with the mechanic, this wouldn't really be an issue.  As it is, knock is just disruptive-- it messes up herding, it messes up AOE attacks and debuffs, and it can lead to unintended aggro.  If NPCs got an extra helping of damage when tornado flings them around a room, that would be awesome and make a little more sense.  Storm summoning is one of my all time favourite sets, but it is build wrecking to have to neuter the knockback out of my power set.  Add some + damage, or rework knock mechanics to make them more of a control, such as trapping enemies within a vortex without hurling them away.

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 7/19/2022 at 1:31 PM, Rudra said:

I am against the free advantage on specific powers. I don't care if it saves 1 slot. I don't care if it saves 1 million slots. I don't care about the slots. I care about the fact this thread is effectively asking for a free advantage.

 

So you've been against every buff to anything ever added to the game? Because that's all any buff is: a sudden "free advantage" that didn't exist before the change.