Too strong

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Again, if xp/time while soloing isn't relevant, what exactly is? If I run a tank from 1 to 50 solo faster than the same combo brute and scrapper because I can push the diff higher and sooner, why isn't that a balance issue?

To push content high means you can survive it. Tankers do this better naturally. Brutes take a bit longer to build their survival also as they do not gain the secondary skills as fast as a Tanker gains its primary skill set.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

To push content high means you can survive it. Tankers do this better naturally. Brutes take a bit longer to build their survival also as they do not gain the secondary skills as fast as a Tanker gains its primary skill set.

 

Yea, that's the point. Tanks get to push diff higher at lower levels and thus level faster. Why isn't this a problem? (And meleers get to do the same across the board compared to squishies, why isn't THAT a problem?)

[Gobbledigook]

A Tanker can take a lot longer than a Brute to gain some decent attacks to take mobs out though. Super stength on a Tanker does not gain any decent AoE until level 38 with footstomp.

A brute gets it earlier and is still pretty damned tough.

[Gobbledigook]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Yea, that's the point. Tanks get to push diff higher at lower levels and thus level faster. Why isn't this a problem? (And meleers get to do the same across the board compared to squishies, why isn't THAT a problem?)

So a Tanker might take on +3 mobs due to better survival and be slow to take them down due to limited attack skills but a Brute might take on +2 mobs and clear them much faster due to better dps and access to better attacks faster.

 

Seems normal to me.

 

Blasters are glass cannons, defenders etc are buffers/debuffers. They are also at range

Edited August 11, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm asking all these questions because without solid answers I have absolutely no way to provide useful information from testing.

 

I do not think there is necessarily one single metric. I said solo was not the metric but I think if one is really going to go after balance one needs to look at both solo and group play and do so as it actually is experienced by the majority of players.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

So a Tanker might take on +3 mobs due to better survival and be slow to take them down due to limited attack skills but a Brute might take on +2 mobs and clear them much faster due to better dps and access to better attacks faster.

 

Seems normal to me.

 

If that's the case. I'm arguing that it's not. based on the game as it is right now, tanks will level faster solo to 50 than brutes simply due to the extra XP that comes from being able to punch the diff higher sooner. It shouldn't be this way. It's broken and unbalanced. All the melee ATs should level at exactly the same rate. As mitigation goes up, damage output should go down.

[Gobbledigook]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

If that's the case. I'm arguing that it's not. based on the game as it is right now, tanks will level faster solo to 50 than brutes simply due to the extra XP that comes from being able to punch the diff higher sooner. It shouldn't be this way. It's broken and unbalanced. All the melee ATs should level at exactly the same rate. As mitigation goes up, damage output should go down.

But they don't. 

A tanker may take on +3 mobs and take 1 minute say to clear them with their limited secondary attack picks.

Whilst a Brute may take on +2s only and clear them in maybe half the time due to better dps and faster access to the good attacks. Abuse the inspirations and the Brute will pull ahead easily.

 

I think you are basing it all on just your own personal results. Those results may not be very accurate. My view is very different.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

A Tanker can take a lot longer than a Brute to gain some decent attacks to take mobs out though. Super stength on a Tanker does not gain any decent AoE until level 38 with footstomp.

A brute gets it earlier and is still pretty damned tough.

 

Every Tanker gets three attacks by level 4. Most have their fourth attack at level 16 (assuming you did not go Fighting pool). Super Strength is an outlier, getting the miserably useless Hand Clap at level 16. Not sure it should be held up as the exemplar of the Tanker experience. While Brutes will typically have two more attacks by 16th level, those are also the least experiencing demanding levels for one to play through and also levels one is not likely to be turning up the difficulty on, unlike the later levels on a Tanker.

[Gobbledigook]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Every Tanker gets three attacks by level 4. Most have their fourth attack at level 16 (assuming you did not go Fighting pool). Super Strength is an outlier, getting the miserably useless Hand Clap at level 16. Not sure it should be held up as the exemplar of the Tanker experience. While Brutes will typically have two more attacks by 16th level, those are also the least experiencing demanding levels for one to play through and also levels one is not likely to be turning up the difficulty on, unlike the later levels on a Tanker.

For fast leveling it is the access to the AoE attacks that really matter. Brutes win there. SS should absolutely be considered but yes others set should be also. It will also depend on the Armor set picked. Also there are many outside buffs in the game to boost a brutes survival enough for leveling.

 

A Tanker may have an easier time turning the diffeiculy up but slowing its clear rate but a Brute is more than capable if you use inspiration/outside buffs etc.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

So a Tanker might take on +3 mobs due to better survival and be slow to take them down due to limited attack skills but a Brute might take on +2 mobs and clear them much faster due to better dps and access to better attacks faster.

 

Seems normal to me.

 

No. The Brute will not be turning up the difficulty at the same time but to one lower setting because while Brutes can reach Tanker caps, they do not get the inherently larger values for defense and resistance Tankers do. Some chunk of their survivability is gate kept behind ED and IO sets. Sticking 3 SOs into any of a Brute's armor abilities will leave them woefully behind where Tankers get to in terms of survivability. So unless you like dirt naps, you will not be turning things up very far.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Whilst a Brute may take on +2s only and clear them in maybe half the time due to better dps and faster access to the good attacks.

 

That's just false.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

For fast leveling it is the access to the AoE attacks that really matter. Brutes win there. SS should absolutely be considered but yes others set should be also. It will also depend on the Armor set picked. Also there are many outside buffs in the game to boost a brutes survival enough for leveling.

 

You have to be able to survive the crowd. I have already covered that Brutes are behind both by raw value and ED.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

No. The Brute will not be turning up the difficulty at the same time but to one lower setting because while Brutes can reach Tanker caps, they do not get the inherently larger values for defense and resistance Tankers do. Some chunk of their survivability is gate kept behind ED and IO sets. Sticking 3 SOs into any of a Brute's armor abilities will leave them woefully behind where Tankers get to in terms of survivability. So unless you like dirt naps, you will not be turning things up very far.

Inspirations.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

Inspirations.

 

They run out. Tanks can spam reds and combine to make more just like the brute and benefit more from them due to their higher base damage mod. Edit: while never needing them for survivability.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Gobbledigook]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That's just false.

It was just a rough example to give you the idea not exact maths.

 

Clearing +2s much faster could be better than slowly taking out +3s

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Inspirations.

 

There went the supposed time gain as you have to go visit a vendor after every mission (or possibly while in the middle of one) to stock up.

 

Or is one supposed to rely on random chance to always provide the necessary inspirations?

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

They run out. Tanks can spam reds and combine to make more just like the brute and benefit more from them due to their higher base damage mod. Edit: while never needing them for survivability.

Fire Brute will level faster than any Tanker. Just hit AE.

Brutes are quite sturdy themselves.

 

As i said it depends on sets used. Build. Outside buffs and probably a lot more. I have not done the math and i don't think  you have either. You are just going off your own gut feeling.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

It was just a rough example to give you the idea not exact maths.

 

Clearing +2s much faster could be better than slowly taking out +3s

 

Easy to test. But again, I need exact parameters to test with. SOs only? Total time from 1 to 50? Insps on or off? Binds for combining insps allowed?

 

Or just a fa/rad tank vs a rad/fa brute in a fire farm?

 

What's the criteria?

[Gobbledigook]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

There went the supposed time gain as you have to go visit a vendor after every mission (or possibly while in the middle of one) to stock up.

 

Or is one supposed to rely on random chance to always provide the necessary inspirations?

You can select which inspirations you don't want to drop and the vendor is right there in AE.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

Just hit AE.

 

That's awfully myopic.

[Gobbledigook]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Easy to test. But again, I need exact parameters to test with. SOs only? Total time from 1 to 50? Insps on or off? Binds for combining insps allowed?

 

Or just a fa/rad tank vs a rad/fa brute in a fire farm?

 

What's the criteria?

You tell me it seems you have already worked it out and judged.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

I have not done the math

 

Maybe we all should. Maybe the devs should. Maybe that's the point of everything I've been spewing on about for the last 2 years.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Gobbledegook said:

You tell me it seems you have already worked it out and judged.

 

I have based on Claws and SR but was told my testing was invalid because of the way followup functions and it wasn't relevant to every attack set that didn't have a constant damage buff.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Maybe we all should. Maybe the devs should. Maybe that's the point of everything I've been spewing on about for the last 2 years.

Perhaps it will amount to nothing and be a waste of time also. Perhaps everything it just fine. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Gobbledegook said:

Perhaps it will amount to nothing and be a waste of time also. Perhaps everything it just fine. 

 

Everything is absolutely just fine when you don't give a shit about numerical balance.