Someone Explain Taunt to Me.

[Sura]

Taunt and taunt effects are basically building agro without damage (or in addition to) at a greater scale (generally speaking).

 

simplifying this thread that way seems... perverse.

 

makes sense, I think I will stick with the damage slotting as I have several powers that taunt and mobs are usually dead by the time the taunt duration is up.

 

that's probably the right call.  from what we've gotten here, taunt enhancements only go in your taunt power or (rarely) your aura.  as long as you're using your taunt power, taunt enhancements anywhere else are wasted.

 

I've got taunt in Chilling Embrace, is that wasted?  I'm trying to follow the technical discussion but not doing very well.  :)

[Herotu]

 

I've got taunt in Chilling Embrace, is that wasted?  I'm trying to follow the technical discussion but not doing very well.  :)

I'm surprised it lets you slot taunt into it because paragonwiki...

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ice_Armor#Chilling_Embrace

... says it does neither damage (which I presume would trigger Gauntlet's taunt) nor it's own taunt. So I wonder how that works.

 

[Sura]

It's always taken taunt, but that's all I can tell you.  I don't really get how everything works behind the scenes, so I don't know whether there's a point in slotting it.

[Sarrate]

I'm surprised it lets you slot taunt into it because paragonwiki...

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ice_Armor#Chilling_Embrace

... says it does neither damage (which I presume would trigger Gauntlet's taunt) nor it's own taunt. So I wonder how that works.

 

Chilling Embrace definitely taunts. Check out its entry in City of Data.

 

Gauntlet actually isn't a proc, it's just an effect baked into all Tanker attacks. It doesn't exist without a developer explicitly adding it.

 

I've got taunt in Chilling Embrace, is that wasted?  I'm trying to follow the technical discussion but not doing very well.  :)

 

It's always taken taunt, but that's all I can tell you.  I don't really get how everything works behind the scenes, so I don't know whether there's a point in slotting it.

 

If you have Taunt (and use it), I wouldn't recommend putting taunt into Chilling Embrace unless you're chasing set bonuses. The game only uses the longest taunt effect per character, and Taunt is ~3x longer than CE's taunt. If you want to make sure things stick to you, slot and use Taunt.

[Sura]

Wow, I didn't know we could get to Red Tomax anymore! 

 

I use taunt even when I solo, it's just part of my rotation.  I was thinking with Chilling that since Taunt only hits five people I'd bump Chilling to help grab more, thus the taunt enh.  I can change it to a slow, that'd be easy.

[Herotu]

 

Gauntlet actually isn't a proc, it's just an effect baked into all Tanker attacks. It doesn't exist without a developer explicitly adding it.

 

Wow! That's interesting, does it mean that pool punches (cross punch, boxing, kick etc) don't have it, or did developers add it to tank pool punches?

[Kruunch]

Taunt and taunt effects are basically building agro without damage (or in addition to) at a greater scale (generally speaking).

 

simplifying this thread that way seems... perverse.

 

makes sense, I think I will stick with the damage slotting as I have several powers that taunt and mobs are usually dead by the time the taunt duration is up.

 

that's probably the right call.  from what we've gotten here, taunt enhancements only go in your taunt power or (rarely) your aura.  as long as you're using your taunt power, taunt enhancements anywhere else are wasted.

 

I've got taunt in Chilling Embrace, is that wasted?  I'm trying to follow the technical discussion but not doing very well.  :)

 

I don't usually slot my taunt auras with taunt enhancements but if you want/need the longer duration then that's the way to go (or save yourself the slots for other things).

 

Incidentally, my Taunt power almost always gets one accuracy as Taunt *can* miss (I have 2 slotted Taunt with Perfect Zingers for Toxic resist on my Elec Tanker to help shore up that hole).

[Sura]

Huh, I thought the Tanker secondary taunt was auto-hit, and Provoke from the pools had a roll to-hit.  Pine's says "A To Hit check is required to taunt enemy players, but is not needed against critter targets." when I look at Taunt in my Secondary (elec). 

[Sarrate]

Wow, I didn't know we could get to Red Tomax anymore!

 

All hail the Wayback Machine!

 

Wow! That's interesting, does it mean that pool punches (cross punch, boxing, kick etc) don't have it, or did developers add it to tank pool punches?

 

This was brought up in a separate thread, but -- for Air Superiority at least -- it looked like it was only taunting the primary target, not an AoE (arc and radius are both "-", or n/a).

 

There may be other pool attacks that do have an AoE for Tankers, or they could have been changed by the devs here, I can't confirm those.

 

Incidentally, my Taunt power almost always gets one accuracy as Taunt *can* miss (I have 2 slotted Taunt with Perfect Zingers for Toxic resist on my Elec Tanker to help shore up that hole).

 

Pretty sure it can only miss against players, according to City of Data:

 

Max targets hit     5
Entities affected   Foe
Entities autohit    Foe   <---

(PvE) 41s Taunt (mag 4)
(PvP) 10.25s Taunt (mag 4)
        If (@ToHitRoll < @ToHit) or @ForceHit   <---

 

-- edit 1 --

Actually, I was remembering something about higher rank mobs having a tohit roll, but it wasn't for Taunt, it was for taunt auras. I check Blazing Aura, Chilling Embrace, and Invincibility, and they all have the same entries:

 

13.6s Taunt (mag 4)
  If target.HasTag?(Raid) and (@ToHitRoll + 0.2 < @ToHit)
13.6s Taunt (mag 4)
  If (target.enttype == critter) and not target.HasTag?(Raid)

 

I think that means the tohit check would have to make the tohit check by a margin of 20%, but only against "Raid" mobs. (Not sure if that's just mobs in Incarnate trials, if that includes all AVs, or if it there was no standard on which mobs received that flag.)

 

Also, interestingly enough, all three of those auras' tuant effect are different.

 

Invincibility - Canceled on Held, Stun, Sleep && does not stack

Chilling Embrace - Canceled on Held, Stun, Sleep

Blazing Aura - None of the above

 

Very strange.

 

-- edit 2 --

 

Actually, the tohit check for taunt effects (for Raid tagged enemies) applies to Gauntlet as well as auras. (Check out any Tanker melee set on CoD, like Radiation Melee.

 

-- /edit --

 

 

(Side note: It's interesting that Taunts aren't defined consistently, some are Ranged, some are AoE, some have a "Null" entry, and some don't.)

[Kruunch]

Great catch and digging +1 inf for you!

[NEW DAWN]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 3:54 AM, Sarrate said:

 

At least Brutes benefit by way of Fury. Scrappers, on the other hand...  😮 (Of course, Taunt duration outstrips Confront, so they'd be fighting a losing battle, there!)

 

Scrappers can steal aggro from Tankers, even if the tankers taunt. I have lived on both sides. Who is closest, who is doing the most damage does come into play. I also can say that Scrappers taunt auras can also strip aggro from a kiting scrapper with confront, as they are closest and doing damage. It's not all about the duration, it's all about the threat. Sorry for the necro post. I have been doing search fu.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by NEW DAWN

[Heraclea]

59 minutes ago, NEW DAWN said:

Scrappers can steal aggro from Tankers, even if the tankers taunt. I have lived on both sides. Who is closest, who is doing the most damage does come into play. I also can say that Scrappers taunt auras can also strip aggro from a kiting scrapper with confront, as they are closest and doing damage. It's not all about the duration, it's all about the threat. Sorry for the necro post. I have been doing search fu.

 

Some scrappers have taunt auras.  At least one scrapper armor set does not: I know regen scrappers do not have a taunt aura.  My regen scrapper has Invisibility, and approaching a mob does nothing until I want something to happen.  I am not sure whether reflexes scrappers or ninjitsu scrappers have taunt auras either. 

[NEW DAWN]

4 hours ago, Heraclea said:

Some scrappers have taunt auras.  At least one scrapper armor set does not: I know regen scrappers do not have a taunt aura.  My regen scrapper has Invisibility, and approaching a mob does nothing until I want something to happen.  I am not sure whether reflexes scrappers or ninjitsu scrappers have taunt auras either. 

All scrappers can get confront. Regens can steal aggro from Tanks with confront, scrappers were meant to take on AVs from the beginning, they can have the tools available and means to do it in a team.

 

Threat = Dam*debuffmod*ATmod*RangeMod*Tauntdurationremaining*1000.

 

So lets say the Tank was kiting to prevent AoEs wiping the team, the scrapper is doing damage+possible debuffs, the scrapper is closer doing the damage, the Tanker is further away, all the scrapper has to do is used confront. AV picks up on Scrapper and numbers around it, AVs AoE is fully rechg'd. Whack. AV goes from low DPS range attack on Tank to PBAoE on team.

 

 

Scrapper is kiting with confront, and the team are around the AV, one scrapper in melee does a lot of damage plus has their damage and taunt aura on, same again, AV goes from low dps range attack on Kiting Scrapper to the Scrapper doing lots of damage and a taunt aura on, whack, pbaoe on team.

 

You rarely see teams with no support characters or scrappers with confront, but this can happen.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by NEW DAWN

[Generator]

4 hours ago, Heraclea said:

I am not sure whether reflexes scrappers or ninjitsu scrappers have taunt auras either.

SR scrappers don't have a taunt aura unless Homecoming changed that (but I know they put a Taunt effect onto one of toggles for Tanker SR).

[Mr. Wallet]

Sorry to necro but I was searching for threads about taunt and this one came up. Sadly I don't have access to the code, but I can share my own experiences with what amounts to a long and strange experiment in taunting:

I have been playing a no-damage invuln tanker for a while (Invincibility giving a taunt aura, spamming Taunt/Provoke with absolutely zero damage, not even from required secondary or procs) and I can say that he's very effective at taking and holding aggro. As srmalloy wrote, "Taunt gives you a measure of aggro on its own". Sometimes when I am really outclassed I will be unable to hold an AV's attention - this almost never happens. The other player(s) need to have a lot of set bonuses and/or incarnate shifts over me in order for this to happen. Besides extremely rare cases like that, no one ever seems to beat me in an aggro fight, unless they also use Taunt. (...in which case, they beat me fairly consistently, presumably because they're dealing damage, and also because my taunts are empty-slot and therefore less than half the duration of anyone who's 6-slotted a set.)

The upshot here is that damage is really not important unless there is a severe power differential or both players are operating under a taunt multiplier. In practical terms, the idea of "you also need to deal damage" is generally not true, since anyone who is capable of pulling aggro away from your Taunt/Provoke (by itself) is going to be an AT (or at a power level) which is extremely qualified to survive the aggro. No blaster has ever broken my taunt, even on targets that remained outside my Invincibility aura. (And a good thing too, since that seems to be kind of the point of Taunt.)

 

That formula that can be written as "Threat = Damage * (other terms)" is nonsense, but we already knew that because Taunt, mez, and debuff can also draw aggro. I think that myth that you need to deal damage to hold aggro as a tank persists because no one but me is crazy enough to try playing 20 hours just taunting people and not attacking.

And also I can absolutely confirm that stacking taunt effects has never made a damn bit of difference in any situation, and I must target carefully to try and sweep two different sets of enemies with Taunt and Provoke. So those conclusions about the limited number of taunt effects tracks my experience perfectly.
 

---

Separate note: Tiffany Seville was musing about aggro resets. I have been a huge fan of mid-combat revives since Issue 0, and I can confirm her memory as true both then and now: You keep alll that aggro when you first get knocked out. It was a much bigger deal before you could easily get your hands on full-health self-revives as any character, but I still do the Awaken -> Break Free -> Respite -> Respite combo quite a bit on all ATs, and mobs will switch right back to you instantly if nothing's overpowered your aggro yet, even if they've already started shooting at someone else (who is closer than you).

Edited December 14, 2020 by Mr. Wallet