Someone Explain Taunt to Me.

[Fista]

My understanding outside the power Taunt, is that tanks have an inherent taunt. The so called punchvoke.  Punchvoke is supposed to aggro the mobs and as long as the tank is attacking the mobs, up to the limit, should stay on the tank.  I find it God damn impossible to keep aggro for more than one or two mobs when teamed. KB probably plays some part in that but shouldn't the mob stay taunted anyway? What's going on? Am I doing something wrong. Still just using drops to slot so nothing special there.

[jack_nomind]

The short answer is, we can't.  Until some industrious person looks into the code, we're still not sure exactly how it works.

 

My best understanding is the formula on that page.  Threat is kept by damage or psuedo-damage (e.g., mezzing), multiplied by your Taunt magnitude (generally 4).  The Taunt power does psuedo-damage, as does Gauntlet (what you call punchvoke).  But it isn't very much -- almost never enough on its own to pull enemy mobs from another melee player.  You have to use AoEs (damage or mez) to continue to generate threat on groups of mobs... and the damage you do has to be at least a quarter of what other melee players are doing, and about (1/8th?  I think?) what ranged players are doing.

[Profit]

And also, do not forget, gauntlet requires a to-hit check and can miss.

[Fista]

So do we need to play better or does this need to be looked into?

[jack_nomind]

Oh, good point.  I'll go get the tanker investigative team right on it.

[star_fury_lives]

Can recommend the taunt guides from the archived forums (can't link, on mobile).

 

Also important to note that level affects how long taunt lasts- I'm level 15, and its approx 2.5secs. This increases as you level til level 50 (13secs). I notice my punchvokes don't last very long, and that's why.

 

Punchvoke acts in an aoe around your single target attacks. I can't remember how wide, but it's not huge. I cycle targets when attacking to spread the love.

 

Taunt auras help to keep aggro.

[JusticeBowler]

I hear a lot of people talk about gauntlet problems, but I've never experienced them. All my tanks control mobs better than controllers do and I don't even slot for taunt in my powers. I do use the taunt power aggressively as well as my PBAoEs, but I think the thing that does it more than anything else is have a second or two to group the mobs in the first place.

 

If your team doesn't give you a chance to get the mobs attention, you can't hold it. And "shuffling around" can help the mobs tighten up because punch-voke has a small AoE effect on every hit, so if they are closer together you are stacking taunt even on mobs you aren't hitting.

 

Now, that being said, anyone outside the immediate melee range is going to be hard to manage if blasters are throwing stuff around like kids on a nickelodeon channel game show. But that's why you have controllers and defenders to mitigate the crazy that's outside your wheelhouse.

[Sarrate]

The short answer is, we can't.  Until some industrious person looks into the code, we're still not sure exactly how it works.

 

My best understanding is the formula on that page.  Threat is kept by damage or psuedo-damage (e.g., mezzing), multiplied by your Taunt magnitude (generally 4).  The Taunt power does psuedo-damage, as does Gauntlet (what you call punchvoke).  But it isn't very much -- almost never enough on its own to pull enemy mobs from another melee player.  You have to use AoEs (damage or mez) to continue to generate threat on groups of mobs... and the damage you do has to be at least a quarter of what other melee players are doing, and about (1/8th?  I think?) what ranged players are doing.

 

Threat/taunt isn't as well understood as other mechanics, and it can be situational (eg: the AI modifier), but some basic principles apply:

 

1) All threat factors multiply with one another - that is they compound.

2) The longest active taunt duration on the target is used for threat formula. So if you have a 5s taunt and a 10s taunt, you'll get a 10,000x multiplier (10s * 1,000).

3) While the threat multiplier of taunt is huge, it's not enough by itself, you need to do damage.

4) Since debuffs have a threat multiplier, attacks/auras/etc with debuffs are stronger than those without.

 

Using this very basic framework, the best way to make enemies stick to you like glue is to Taunt frequently and attack the things you Taunt.

 

Why? This will make your threat multiplier huge (unslotted at 50 it lasts 41 seconds, slotted that's ~80 seconds, or an 80,000x threat multiplier) so all your attacks are more effective. Additionally, it will help make it last in situations where you're not actively attacking an enemy (have more enemies around you than Gauntlet can hit, enemies out of aoe range, you're herding around a corner, you have to move to grab adds, you're effected by tohit debuffs, etc).

 

Again, I'm not saying spam Taunt and do nothing else, that's nowhere near enough. I'm also not saying you have to take Taunt if you don't want to. To me, however, I dislike the feeling of being unable to hold AV aggro off another non-Tanker.

 

For reference, I had a WP/Fire on live that would out threat pretty much any other character that was not also Taunting.

 

----

 

Addendum 1

 

If you don't have Taunt, you'll likely lose aggro to Brutes and Scrappers (with actual Taunt auras). Why? You'll both have roughly the same taunt duration (taunt auras and Gauntlet have the same duration), but far less damage. With Taunt you can overwhelm their damage advantage with a bigger threat multiplier.

 

Addendum 2

 

This also helps explain why Chilling Embrace is so fiendishly effective:

 

*) It's auto-hit, so it will always hit the target.

*) It ticks fast, so it will build up threat quicker and help keep your taunt duration up there (if you're not Taunting). For comparison, CE ticks every 0.5s, Invincibility every 1s. Damage auras tend to tick even slower (Blazing Aura is every 2s and it has a tohit check).

*) It has a plethora of debuffs (run speed, flight speed, jump speed, recharge, damage x8 (one per type)), recall that these are threat multipliers as well.

[jack_nomind]

AFAIK, the taunt duration factor is not 1 per 1s remaining.  My suspicion is that it has very little to do with duration at all, but I should... actually just look at the code and figure it out.

[Call Me Awesome]

Avoiding the numbers that I don't recall from when I saw them 7 years or so ago here's a good rule of thumb:

 

Taunt mobs you want to control, AND also attack them.  Taunt works as a multiplier for the aggro of your attack.  Also, run your taunt aura and keep the mobs close to you.

 

Some sets are better at aggro than others.  Some sets have an auto hit taunt aura while some require accuracy.  Off the top of my head Invuln, Ice and Shield have auto hit auras while Fire and Stone require a to hit check.  Willpower is the red headed stepchild since while it's aura is auto hit it's also by far the weakest (Mag 3 vs Mag 4 for all others) and the shortest duration (1-2 seconds vs 14-17 seconds for the others).

 

So to keep aggro use taunt and your attacks while you let your aura do some of the heavy lifting.  If you really want aggro then nothing beats Ice armor on that... you get two taunt auras, one of which is auto hit with a debuff and the other puts out some damage to keep them interested.

 

Eventually you run into the aggro cap and additional mobs won't pay attention to you without some fancy tricks but that won't be a factor until late game when your defenses are mature enough to handle that many mobs beating on you at once.  It's been 6 years but I seem to recall the aggro cap is what, 15 or 16 mobs?

 

[jack_nomind]

It's a nice even 17.

[Nunother]

I've played all tank sets and I have never had issues keeping the mob's attention only on me.  Use the taunt power for those ranged guys that are hitting on your back line.  Use line-of-site to make the mobs come to you.  Once they are in melee range your taunt aura will handle the rest.  If you are playing with a tank make sure you give it a sec before using all of those AOEs.  I know it's fun to make the first hit, but it's more fun to have them all grouped and then use those AOEs.  When I play a tank, my taunt is the most used power, that thing is always on cooldown.  Nothing is more frustrating for me when I'm on a team than before the tank even runs in, the troller is throwing cages, let the tank group them up, then use your cages.  Once those mobs are caged near the tank, the blasters and scrappers can do their thing and unleash the beast!  As I tank, once the mobs are almost done I leave the team to start grouping up the next mob.  That way they are in place as the rest of the team is done with the last set of mobs. 

[BelleSorciere]

Addendum 1

 

If you don't have Taunt, you'll likely lose aggro to Brutes and Scrappers (with actual Taunt auras). Why? You'll both have roughly the same taunt duration (taunt auras and Gauntlet have the same duration), but far less damage. With Taunt you can overwhelm their damage advantage with a bigger threat multiplier.

 

Also, brutes have inherent taunt (but not aoe taunt) in their attacks.

[Sarrate]

AFAIK, the taunt duration factor is not 1 per 1s remaining.  My suspicion is that it has very little to do with duration at all, but I should... actually just look at the code and figure it out.

 

I actually forgot that was even an an option. I did some very quick spelunking and taunt duration is definitely used, but there's enough code that speaking authoritatively on it would be silly without spending more time. Three things I did find interesting (at least in one function):

 

1) When we heard Taunt is a 1,000 multiplier (I had a typo in my previous post), it looks like it was 1,000%, not 1,000x. In other words, it's a 10x multiplier. Still big, but not quite as all encompassing as we originally thought.

2) It looks like Taunt is retroactive. If you first deal 500 damage then Taunt second, the 500 damage will be affected by Taunt.

3) If your taunt's duration isn't double the remaining taunt duration of the current target, your taunt is nullified.

 

I was going to post where I found the above logic, but now that I think of it, I'm not sure where the line for what is acceptable to post here is, so I'll stop there. If it's okay to be more specific, I will.

 

As I tank, once the mobs are almost done I leave the team to start grouping up the next mob.  That way they are in place as the rest of the team is done with the last set of mobs.

 

Assuming the team is working well together (eg: not struggling with the content), that's living the dream.

 

Also, brutes have inherent taunt (but not aoe taunt) in their attacks.

 

Yep. I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was, "if you don't have Taunt, you'll likely lose aggro to [all] Brutes and Scrappers [with taunt auras]."

[BelleSorciere]

Yep. I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was, "if you don't have Taunt, you'll likely lose aggro to [all] Brutes and Scrappers [with taunt auras]."

 

This is true, and if the community is similar to how it was when CoH was not canceled, many scrappers and brutes may be deliberately trying to steal that aggro. :D

[jack_nomind]

I was going to post where I found the above logic, but now that I think of it, I'm not sure where the line for what is acceptable to post here is, so I'll stop there. If it's okay to be more specific, I will.

 

Leandro provided line numbers and extraordinarily helpful direct links to Ourodev files as part of a discussion earlier today, so I'm reasonably sure you're clear.

[Sarrate]

This is true, and if the community is similar to how it was when CoH was not canceled, many scrappers and brutes may be deliberately trying to steal that aggro. :D

 

At least Brutes benefit by way of Fury. Scrappers, on the other hand...  :o (Of course, Taunt duration outstrips Confront, so they'd be fighting a losing battle, there!)

 

Leandro provided line numbers and extraordinarily helpful direct links to Ourodev files as part of a discussion earlier today, so I'm reasonably sure you're clear.

 

Ah, so he did. Well, alright then. Check out entaicritter.c, specifically the aiCritterFindTarget around line 450. Here's how I read what's going on:

 

The for loop at line 478 takes all entities (players or NPCs) affecting the given ai, and iterates over them. It calculates the total threat (total), stores it in status->dangerValue, then handles the aggro cap. After the loop exists, it takes the target with the highest threat (dangerValue, stored within the loop) and targets that entity.

 

The taunt multiplier get calculated at line 697. Note that taunt.duration is the total duration, the remaining duration has to be calculated (hence code like "taunt.duration - ABS_TIME_SINCE(taunt.begin)."

 

 

I could be looking in the entirely wrong file, though. We were told that debuffs affect threat, but - based on this function - I don't see it. It's entirely possible that it's hidden somewhere (maybe damage.toMe has that baked in somewhere else in the code, for example).

 

Anyways, it took me a bit just to find this, so I haven't gotten much further than that.

[jack_nomind]

I could be looking in the entirely wrong file, though. We were told that debuffs affect threat, but - based on this function - I don't see it. It's entirely possible that it's hidden somewhere (maybe damage.toMe has that baked in somewhere else in the code, for example).

 

Thank you, brave spelunker!

 

Without looking but based on Castle or Synapse comments, I think everything is damage.  Mez damage just works slightly differently than, say, Smashing damage.  (And we don't have Smashing Protection because, well, if you let one support toon provide 1 point of it...)

[BelleSorciere]

This is true, and if the community is similar to how it was when CoH was not canceled, many scrappers and brutes may be deliberately trying to steal that aggro. :D

 

At least Brutes benefit by way of Fury. Scrappers, on the other hand...  :o (Of course, Taunt duration outstrips Confront, so they'd be fighting a losing battle, there!)

 

Are most tankers taking taunt now?

[Call Me Awesome]

This is true, and if the community is similar to how it was when CoH was not canceled, many scrappers and brutes may be deliberately trying to steal that aggro. :D

 

At least Brutes benefit by way of Fury. Scrappers, on the other hand...  :o (Of course, Taunt duration outstrips Confront, so they'd be fighting a losing battle, there!)

 

Are most tankers taking taunt now?

 

Probably but there was a running argument in the old forums about how "I don't need no stinking taunt", more often than not by players unfamiliar with the game.  Bottom line is that a tank is more effective with taunt than without it, although some sets with strong auras can get by without.  Of course if it comes to grabbing that add across the room you're out of luck without it.

[BelleSorciere]

This is true, and if the community is similar to how it was when CoH was not canceled, many scrappers and brutes may be deliberately trying to steal that aggro. :D

 

At least Brutes benefit by way of Fury. Scrappers, on the other hand...  :o (Of course, Taunt duration outstrips Confront, so they'd be fighting a losing battle, there!)

 

Are most tankers taking taunt now?

 

Probably but there was a running argument in the old forums about how "I don't need no stinking taunt", more often than not by players unfamiliar with the game.  Bottom line is that a tank is more effective with taunt than without it, although some sets with strong auras can get by without.  Of course if it comes to grabbing that add across the room you're out of luck without it.

 

This is not how I remember those arguments going. That is, many of the proponents of skipping Taunt I personally knew were actually fairly good tankers with a decent amount of experience. As far as grabbing adds across the room tanks have options to deal with that.

 

I also recall people campaigning for something like the aoe taunt in attacks just so taunt wouldn't be required.

[redtwister666]

Since we are talking Taunt, AoEs, and the like, can we list the Taunt Auras for the different sets and rank them by power level?

 

BIO - Genetic Contamination, Minor DMG(Lethal/Toxic, 6.67 base) Foe -Damage(All)

DA - Death Shroud, Damage only (Negative 8.9 base), no Debuffs; Cloak of Fear, +Fear, - To Hit, no damage; Oppressive Gloom, mag 2 stun, no damage.

EA - Lightning Field, Foe -Endurance, Minor Damage (energy 8.9 base)

FA - Blazing Aura, Damage only (9.79 base), no Debuffs

IA - Chilling Embrace AND Icicles, Foe -Recharge, -Speed, -Damage, Does not do Damage AND Minor DMG (Lethal 8.9 base)

Inv - Invincibility, Foe Taunt Self +Defense(All Damage but Psionics), +To Hit, Does not do Damage

Rad - Beta Decay  Foe, Taunt, -To Hit, -Defense Self +Recharge

Shield - Against all Odds(?) Foe -Damage Self +Damage, Does not do Damage

Stone - Mud Pots Foe Immobilize, -Speed, Does Damage (Fire, 8.01 base)

SR - Evasion Self +Defense(Area of Effect), +Resistance(Defense Debuff),  Does not do Damage

WP - Rise to the Challenge, Foe -To Hit Self +Regeneration,  Does not do Damage

 

So of the Toggle auto-taunts with damage, DA has the worst, IMO, since it is low damage AND no debuffs. 

 

Fiery Aura is better damage, but no buffs.  Of course, let's admit, this plus Burn is the reason it has always been the Aggro Tank/Farmer Brute (Fire/Ice and Spines/Fire) of choice.  It isn't very good, but better than Death Shroud for sure.

 

EA's Lightning Field is middling.  -END isn't bad, it can do some lock down after enemy attacks have gone off.  Still, it is Death Shroud + a debuff, so better than Death Shroud and possibly better than Fiery Aura for anything other than a farming build.  Also does couple nicely with all of the -END of EM attacks.

 

I know from experience that Stone Mud Pots are okay, but most of the taunt comes from the debuffs, not the damage, which is very low.  However, immobilize and slow are great for crowd control.  And you can skip the damage sets and go all in on -SPD

 

Based on feedback, I am going to modify DA from worst to at least in the top 3, as Cloak of Fear, Death Shroud and Oppressive Gloom all taunt at Mag 4.  With all three going, that is a lot of taunt without Taunt.  Oppressive Gloom is risky and it's stun is only Mag 2, but that is still a lot of taunt with some decent debuffs.

 

Bio's taunt does the least damage of the damage taunts, but -DMG 10.5% is a nice debuff since it increases your own survivability and works great with +RES.

 

Of the damage taunts, I think it is a toss up between Mud Pots and Genetic Contamination for best with Death Shroud the clear lose.

 

Of sets with damaging Taunt Auras, I am tempted to rank as follows, but all of them might be quite close depending on your preferred style of tanking and your general assessment of the Primary Power Set for tanking:

1. Ice Armor

2. Bio and Stone sort of a draw (I put these above DA because you can enhance the taunts on them, unlike Cloak and Oppressive.)

3. Dark Armor, with the corrections made by posters below, ends up having 3 Taunt Auras, which is quite a lot, but only Death Shroud can use Taunt Enhancements from what I have found.

 

 

 

I don't actually have a lot of experience with the others, I only ever played Stone/Ice, EA/EM and DA/Staff to level 50.

 

EDIT:

Updated IA, the combination of two taunts is actually quite effective, even if the second one is only Minor DMG.  That might push IA to first among the Sets with damaging Taunt Auras and could make it the best Aura-Taunting set overall.

[Sura]

Should Icicles be in there?  Or would you count that as a damage aura, not a taunt aura?

[Warboss]

Yes, Icicles should be in there, between Chilling Embrace ("sticking cold" affect) and Icicles (damage + "taunt") stealing aggro from an Ice Tanker is extremely difficult, especially if you pair that with something like Spines...

[redtwister666]

UPDATED.