Scrapper Tier Lists

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Enough for what?  What is your metric?    But you have to understand that every additional iota of +DEF is more valuable than the last.  The same is true for +DEF.   And there is a world of defense between 60% +RES and 70% +RES.

 

I think the best form of mitigation you can add to /Regen is soft mitigation.  Attacks that knockdown or disorient slow down the incoming DPS and allow /Regen's healing to be a bigger factor.  I've been leveling a KM/Regen after leveling an SM/Regen.   The SM kills faster and recharges faster,, but the KM holds it's own on account of so many KD powers.

 

It doesn't scale because it was never designed to solo at 4x8.  And without perma-IH, it doesn't solo AV's well either.  The other sets weren't designed for this either, but later additions to the game allowed several sets to cap +DEF or +RES way more easily/consistently than was intended, so these sets are getting asymmetrical benefits.  

 

Actually it does in the from +Recovery and it's a big deal....when you're leveling up.  Without Set IO's /SR and /SD run dry and you aren't killing anything when you can't fire your attacks and your toggles drop.  But...Set IO's and +Recovery Provs  have allowed Scrappers to have eliminate Endurance issues almost entirely.  So one big advantage that /Regen has is totally undermined.  You might argue that /Regen should be free to  chase +DMG in the Set IOs, but I don't know if it works out that way.  I don't know that I can get anough +DMG bonuses for a /Regen to make up for all the +Recovery that other sets can get.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking on the idea enough Resist to go with it's Regen to equal the staying power of the defense sets while being able to use IH and MoG.

[FUBARczar]

8 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Enough for what?  What is your metric?    But you have to understand that every additional iota of +DEF is more valuable than the last.  The same is true for +DEF.   And there is a world of defense between 60% +RES and 70% +RES.

 

I think the best form of mitigation you can add to /Regen is soft mitigation.  Attacks that knockdown or disorient slow down the incoming DPS and allow /Regen's healing to be a bigger factor.  I've been leveling a KM/Regen after leveling an SM/Regen.   The SM kills faster and recharges faster,, but the KM holds it's own on account of so many KD powers.

 

It doesn't scale because it was never designed to solo at 4x8.  And without perma-IH, it doesn't solo AV's well either.  The other sets weren't designed for this either, but later additions to the game allowed several sets to cap +DEF or +RES way more easily/consistently than was intended, so these sets are getting asymmetrical benefits.  

 

Actually it does in the from +Recovery and it's a big deal....when you're leveling up.  Without Set IO's /SR and /SD run dry and you aren't killing anything when you can't fire your attacks and your toggles drop.  But...Set IO's and +Recovery Provs  have allowed Scrappers to have eliminate Endurance issues almost entirely.  So one big advantage that /Regen has is totally undermined.  You might argue that /Regen should be free to  chase +DMG in the Set IOs, but I don't know if it works out that way.  I don't know that I can get anough +DMG bonuses for a /Regen to make up for all the +Recovery that other sets can get.

 

 

 

I'd rather run dry on endurance than HP, which is Regen's issue... just saying....

 

But seriously, just change IH into an absorb toggle already,   it improves things pretty quickly.  

 

Oh wait they already did that... Wait, why hasn't the Sentinel's version of Regen been applied to the other ATs yet?

 

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

I'd rather run dry on endurance than HP, which is Regen's issue... just saying....

 

But seriously, just change IH into an absorb toggle already,   it improves things pretty quickly.  

 

Oh wait they already did that... Wait, why hasn't the Sentinel's version of Regen been applied to the other ATs yet?

 

 

Does it make a difference?  Sentinels play at range, so the builds are different.  Building for range defense for example.

[SomeGuy]

36 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Does it make a difference?  Sentinels play at range, so the builds are different.  Building for range defense for example.

 

 

You can play a Claws scrapper entirely at range and not be gimped. In fact, it actually wouldn't be bad at all. Focus, Shockwave, and Snipe. 😄 This would actually be pretty good, since Shoclwave can be used in a ST chain too. You'd just lose out on the +DMG/+TOHIT of Follow-Up and the -RES with Achilles in Slash. You'd still get some -RES from Shockwave, but the Annihalation -RES isn't as strong as the Achille's one.

 

It would be pretty funny to see a Claws scrapper completely at range while a blaster stays in melee on a team.

Edited September 28, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Without_Pause]

52 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

You can play a Claws scrapper entirely at range and not be gimped. In fact, it actually wouldn't be bad at all. Focus, Shockwave, and Snipe. 😄 This would actually be pretty good, since Shoclwave can be used in a ST chain too. You'd just lose out on the +DMG/+TOHIT of Follow-Up and the -RES with Achilles in Slash. You'd still get some -RES from Shockwave, but the Annihalation -RES isn't as strong as the Achille's one.

 

It would be pretty funny to see a Claws scrapper completely at range while a blaster stays in melee on a team.

Except an at range Claws would also be skipping Spin which I would consider the build to be gimped. At least a Stalker gets AS instead of Spin and that version still sucks. No FU and Spin? Are you trying to do anything but tickle a mob?

[SomeGuy]

29 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Except an at range Claws would also be skipping Spin which I would consider the build to be gimped. At least a Stalker gets AS instead of Spin and that version still sucks. No FU and Spin? Are you trying to do anything but tickle a mob?

 

I didn't say it would be ideal 😛 I just know you could do it and it wouldn't be bad. I'd be surprised if it wasn't actually good. Do a hover/ranged claws scrapper. Really confuse a team. 

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Does it make a difference?  Sentinels play at range, so the builds are different.  Building for range defense for example.

Does absorb shielding make a difference for Bio?  

 

Bio has some e/n/f/c defense without any DDR and little to no resists, then no defense but it has good resist to s/l.  So it's a mixed bag, but the main part of Bio is the absorb shielding over the regeneration, and it works pretty well.

[SomeGuy]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

Does absorb shielding make a difference for Bio?  

 

Bio has some e/n/f/c defense without any DDR and little to no resists, then no defense but it has good resist to s/l.  So it's a mixed bag, but the main part of Bio is the absorb shielding over the regeneration, and it works pretty well.

 

 

One of my big reasons for liking absorb is because it get's past HP caps. Like how procs get past damage caps. Layers of mitigation. Mmmmmm.

 

[FUBARczar]

What about Rad armor?  Without the particle shielding it wouldn't be nearly as good.

[BrandX]

13 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Does absorb shielding make a difference for Bio?  

 

Bio has some e/n/f/c defense without any DDR and little to no resists, then no defense but it has good resist to s/l.  So it's a mixed bag, but the main part of Bio is the absorb shielding over the regeneration, and it works pretty well.

 

I was running KM/Bio and have a EM/Bio, and I never considered either one to be really durable.  I thought my /Stone Scrapper to be tougher.

[SomeGuy]

6 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I was running KM/Bio and have a EM/Bio, and I never considered either one to be really durable.  I thought my /Stone Scrapper to be tougher.

 

Stone Armor for scraps is legit durable. I just personally wish it had a taunt aura. If it did it would be a no-brainer for me to pick it over Bio since they do just as much damage as each other.

[BrandX]

50 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

 

Stone Armor for scraps is legit durable. I just personally wish it had a taunt aura. If it did it would be a no-brainer for me to pick it over Bio since they do just as much damage as each other.

 

I was pushing my concepts with Bio Armor, I find it harder to push Stone Armor on them.  😞  Taunt auras are nice, I agree, tho I still had runners on my Bio Armors. 😕

 

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

I was running KM/Bio and have a EM/Bio, and I never considered either one to be really durable.  I thought my /Stone Scrapper to be tougher.

Well yeah, but we were comparing Regen to Bio, not Stone or Invuln or EA or SR etc  

 

For Regen, turning IH into an Absorption toggle, and maybe adding a little more to the resist value will greatly improve its durability.

Edited September 28, 2022 by FUBARczar
Autocorrect

[SomeGuy]

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I was pushing my concepts with Bio Armor, I find it harder to push Stone Armor on them.  😞  Taunt auras are nice, I agree, tho I still had runners on my Bio Armors. 😕

 

 

 

 

I totalllly get this. I legit do NOT like my costume being suppressed when out of combat with my ENA for example. I was going to do SM/ENA but my concept steered me to do SM/RAD instead. And omg, so glad I did cause the concept is hilarious (to me).

 

@FUBARczar I personally don't think anything less than adding a hefty chunk of recharge/slow/regen protection is gonna do it without changing the core gameplay mechanics of the set. The Absorption toggle is an interesting idea...very. I wonder why it hasn't been implemented 😄

[Blackjoy]

13 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

I'd rather run dry on endurance than HP, which is Regen's issue... just saying....

But he wasn't asking about mitigation, he was making the claim that /Regen doesn't have anything that helps with offense...and it does...just sayin'

[Blackjoy]

15 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I was thinking on the idea enough Resist to go with it's Regen to equal the staying power of the defense sets while being able to use IH and MoG.

The "defense" sets are capping defense.   If they aren't capping, or within 3 or 4 points of it, they are getting crushed by the content we are talking about.   I saw a Katana/SR turn off Maneuvers and go from defeating a 4x8 incarnate spawns to dead in 15 seconds.   Going from 90% +DEF to 95% +DEF doubles your survival time.  And let me point out that none of the +DEF builds are using just +DEF.  They are also putting in a ton of S/L resist and/or relying on cycling Barrier/RoP, etc.  

 

It's not easy to calculate survival time on /Regen.   The set is designed under the concept that your +Regen will generally be lower than the incoming DPS at the start of the fight.  But through the use of Reconstruction, you survive long enough to reduce the incoming DPS to the point where your +Regen exceeds the DPS.   DP and Instant Healing let you do that on steroids for short periods, and MoG is designed to survive alphas on a periodic basis. 

 

How much +RES and +REGEN do you need to simulate capping +DEF?  Impossible to say.  It depends on what the average incoming DPS is of the content you're trying to solo and your out going DPS (which gets you past the inflection point of the "I win" equation).    Without those two stats, it's impossible to know.  Because the real point of your secondary is to keep you alive to the point where your Primary has reduced the incoming DPS until it is lower than your +Regen with Reconstruction or your "effective health" if you're using DP or IH.    So you don't have to be able to tank stuff...just take the alpha and kill it faster than it can kill you.

 

For scrappers, +RES is capped at a much lower threshold.   75% vs 95%.     So capping +DEF is mitigating a LOT more damage than Resists.  That's why there is no +RES counterpart to /SR.  Every +RES set has multiple other forms of mitigation or way to tip the scales on the "I win."    Look at /Invul and /EnArm.  Both those "resistance" secondaries use +DEF and +HEAL.  /DA has a +Heal and some -To Hit (which is essentially +DEF).    And admittedly, /SR and /SD both use +RES as well.   /SR's +RES just isn't useful against AV's and that high Psi content.  /RAD has +RES, +Absorb, +Heal, and +Recharge that synergizes with its mitigation.   

 

The /Regen builds that supposedly can get to the upper echelon are doing it with Shadowmeld, not with Rune of Protection.  But from what I hear it's really hard to build /Regen to those levels of +DEF.

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Blackjoy

[FUBARczar]

9 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

But he wasn't asking about mitigation, he was making the claim that /Regen doesn't have anything that helps with offense...and it does...just sayin'

Go back and reread the post.  What I said was a joke.  The context was that with SOs Regen held an advantage in the endurance department, which was wiped out by IOs.  So now with IOs, Regen lost a unique advantage.  The joke was it's better to run out of End than HP. 😜

 

Then I moved into making IH into an absorption shield toggle for improved  survivability.

[Blackjoy]

Yeah, I got that.   It's not like I'm offended or anything.  But you took a statement out of context, so wanted to make sure others were clear on what I was talking about.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

Yeah, I got that.   It's not like I'm offended or anything.  But you took a statement out of context, so wanted to make sure others were clear on what I was talking about.

Same I take no offense at all. 

 

For clarity's sale, I think you mean 'muddied the waters' by implying that what you said that you understood as humor was something more than that, while ignoring the vast majority of my post that was germane to improving Regen.

 

Also where does he say that, "he was making the claim that /Regen doesn't have anything that helps with offense..." Because it seems to me that he was clearly saying that Regen had an offensive advantage with quick recovery, which advantage IOs wiped out.  

 

What's more, the problem isn't that Regen doesn't have anything that helps with offense.  Rather, the problem is that Regen doesn't have enough damage mitigation.

 

[Ratch_]

On 9/24/2022 at 8:25 AM, brasilgringo said:

 

@Ratch_Were you ever able to post this?

It's taken me a very long time to get to this point and hope that maybe this could be of some use to you and others. I really am not certain if I'm over complicating things here, cuz really as a scrapper, we just want to wack things anyway 😆

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, Ratch_ said:

as a scrapper, we just want to wack things anyway 😆

 

Yes, as a "scrapper".

[Ratch_]

4 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

Yes, as a "scrapper".

I didn't even pick up on that when I wrote it 😂