Best Primary and 2ndary set for 4 Start ITF

[GamingwithWilson]

Looking to get people opinions on the best Tanker power sets for 4 star ITF. Now i know even the best build will require a balanced team.

 

What im looking for are those builds that can survive solo and take the big hits and give that aggro holding focus that all tankers must do.

 

Currently running a Bio/DM tanker. 

 

What are your thoughts?

[SeraphimKensai]

Without support nothing is going to solo and take all that incoming damage/debuffs. That said using the geometry to kite to minimize incoming dps can definitely help. I did that to keep Rommy on me while the team dealt with the 4 nictus towers.

[Linea]

I'll repeat that.  "NO TANK is going to be able to handle 4-star without at least minimal support"

 

SR, SD, Inv, Stone, would be my top armor recommendations.

SS, DM, and RadM, would be my top attack set recommendations.

 

You should probably look at the information in my solo hardmode itf post.  It is as much a hardmode itf guide as not.  There are tank specific things in there, particularly at the bottom of the first post.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Linea

[Sanguinesun]

11 hours ago, Linea said:

I'll repeat that.  "NO TANK is going to be able to handle 4-star without at least minimal support"

 

SR, SD, Inv, Stone, would be my top armor recommendations.

SS, DM, and RadM, would be my top attack set recommendations.

 

You should probably look at the information in my solo hardmode itf post.  It is as much a hardmode itf guide as not.  There are tank specific things in there, particularly at the bottom of the first post.

 

In this thread: 

 

 

You were saying that Rad Armor was your top pick  but now its not even mentioned.   A week or so ago I also had asked if there'd been any significant shift in your considerations for your picks in that thread and really you'd indicated seemingly that there wasnt any major shifts in what you considered for ITF*4's

 

So by not listing  Rad Armor in your recommendations this time, is this meaning you've changed your mind on Rad Armor being top per the graph you made in the other thread?

 

Just a bit confused.

[Linea]

Context. ... I assumed this question was asked in isolation, to a lone tank, and as applied to random teams.    The recommendations for a lone tank is different than the recommendation for a tank that runs with a reliable coordinated team.  The recommendation for an experienced tank is also different than the recommendation for a new tank.  The overall if I can only ever recommend one tank would probably be Inv/ as a compromise.

 

• SR - You'll likely be able to build to survive one spawn indefinitely, and should be able to handle one spawn and one EB while teamed indefinitely.  After that you're gonna need buffs.   SR is typically not built with much additional resistances, and you'll need those.  As soon as you get 1 EB too many 9% chance to be hit will skyrocket to 60% chance to be hit, and you're going to need those resistances really fast or you'll end up 1-shot before your scaling resists can kick in sufficiently.   This also translates to, if you ease into or pull, without support, you'll end up hovering indefinitely around 40% health as your resists/health goes up and down ... right up till something nasty hits you good and hard and finishes you off.  Rommy in particular will cut you in half if he hits, and his base chance to hit is really high, if you don't kill the EBs escorting him, you'll be toast.
• SD - You'll maybe, assuming you actually build that way, be able to handle one spawn indefinitely, and probably manage it more easily than the SR.  But only one regular spawn, no EBs, definitely not 2 Ebs.  Worse yet, very few SDs are built this way.  SD can also give you the best overall most balanced base to build upon.   If you have no idea what kind of support you are going to get, if any, then any small support will go a long way on SD.  But you ARE going to need those supports.  AT least some maneuvers and Tactics.  Still I consdier this one of the best overall choices.   It's my personal pick, at least today.
• Inv - This one is probably the easiest to drive of all the choices.  It's perfect for most first tanks.  However, you're going to need a good build, so you may need to get help in that area.   You'll also want to push resists hard on all fronts, including Negative, Cold, and Fire, not just SL.  You WILL need either some defense buffs, or at least one extra copy of ageless +DDR, and you'll likely need some HP/S support when tanking Rommy, and maybe the Twins.  You may also need some +Resist or -Damage support when facing the Twins as that is where you'll be facing Cold and Fire and potentially substantial -resist debuffs aimed at Cold and Fire.
• Granite - Overall it will be a bit more durable than Inv, but also still faces all the same issues as Inv, has to deal with -slow and -recharge and -damage.  But if you want a relatively easy taunt bot and don't care about damage and can deal with a Combat Teleport build, then it may also be the perfect tank for completely random 4-star teams.  But that's also a mouthful of negatives to swallow.
• RadA - You absolutely must have Defense Buffs.  ***IF*** you get defense support, then that massive self-capped resists and healing capabilities make this one of the best choices.  ... With our private teams, I've run this one the most.  But even with the private team, buffs have slipped a little here and there.  I compensated with my own incarnates, but had the slippage been any worse the whole team would have collapsed more than once, per run.  And that's with relatively high quality private teams.
• RadA, FA, Bio, Other Resist Builds, and Proc Builds - Now you absolutely need massive defense buffs, and probably some minimal resist buffs too.  ***IF*** you get this fairly substantial amount of support, and get it 24/7, then, and ONLY THEN, .... you now have the perfect tank.   WITHOUT this support you'll squish like an overripe grape.  It's bloody unlikely this will happen on random teams.  Someone will slip, you'll die, then the whole team will die.  And it'll only take one person slipping for the whole team to cascade into death.  Our private teams are running with a substantial number off Offensive Tank builds, and it still gets dicey at times, and other times we end up with some of the best speed times.   But it's still iffy on any given day and any given team if the (Offensive Tank and buffs) will hold.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Linea
Typos

[Neiska]

Working on a Shield Defense/Dark Melee Tanker myself. She just hit 49 last night and it's looking pretty good. I am actually excited because I never had a fully kitted/incarnated Shield tanker before, I usually run Bio Armor, Electric Armor, or Dark Armor.

[Sovera]

Proc or offensive builds don't seem to make much sense for hardmodes. I predicted way back that all my tinkering with Fire Armor only worked thanks to Barrier as a panic button and would only keep on working until new content became harder.

 

After that what is the point of running offense based tankerinos? It's still tanker damage and a Tanker is brought for the extreme survival it has. Even Fire/Martial Arts with its 45% melee/range/AoE and 90% resists to most all self buffed suffers from lack of DDR, even if managing to boost defense to softcap means that much as a buffer once staggered Barriers and shields are applied.

 

Of course that at some point even four star will be speedrun and the chase for better times will birth a meta for offense base tanks. But not for PuGs.

[Linea]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

Of course that at some point even four star will be speedrun and the chase for better times will birth a meta for offense base tanks. But not for PuGs.

I suspect Brutes.  They can taunt better than scrappers, and can be buffed to be as durable as tanks.

 

We're already seeing offense based tanks in private runs, as well as scrapper fronted runs.  The offense based tank is working out better for us, but I also know a couple of groups that use buffed scrappers and are turning in excellent times as well.

[StriderIV]

29 minutes ago, Linea said:

I suspect Brutes.  They can taunt better than scrappers, and can be buffed to be as durable as tanks.

 

We're already seeing offense based tanks in private runs, as well as scrapper fronted runs.  The offense based tank is working out better for us, but I also know a couple of groups that use buffed scrappers and are turning in excellent times as well.

For the hard mode content, do you feel Brutes will become optimal when running with a team? I could see with Fury ramping damage + incoming buffs from the team making them nearly as durable as a Tanker, this could be their time to shine.

[Linea]

19 hours ago, StriderIV said:

For the hard mode content, do you feel Brutes will become optimal when running with a team?

Maybe

1. Scrapper with Taunt, Colds, and Buffs.  But this is going to be the top 1% teams, every one else will struggle with tank-less.
2. Brute with Buffs.  This will be top 10% teams, maybe with time top 30% teams.  You may find some Random teams that fall into this area, but most will definitely not.  Like the tank below, I could dual build this, one with full offense, and one with full durability 801/hardmode build.  The difference here being the Tank below can hit durability 13, while the Brute will be at most Durability 10, and more likely durability 7.   So not really durable and flexible enough to join any and all random teams as Main Tank.  Eventually as teams get better, people learn more, this Dual Built might end up flexible enough for 80% or 90% of random teams, but I don't think it will ever reach 90+% of randoms.
3. Offensive Tanks.  This will be top 30% teams, eventually more.  You'll eventually find more Random teams doing this.  Particularly as everyone learns to build teams, and not just individual builds.  This is about as hopeful as I would bet on.  Great thing here is, you can purposefully Dual Build with intent, one full offense proc build and one full durability 801/hardmode build.  Same tank, fits in with any and all teams, or at least 99%.
4. Standard Tanks.   Everyone else.  If you're Random teaming willy nilly, build that tank has durable as possible and pray to every $diety you can think of.  Because you're in for a wild roller coaster ride.  You might get a sub-40 minute team, and you might get a 4 hour team. /rolldice

Edited September 23, 2022 by Linea

[StriderIV]

3 hours ago, Linea said:

Maybe

1. Scrapper with Taunt, Colds, and Buffs.  But this is going to be the top 1% teams, every one else will struggle with tank-less.
2. Brute with Buffs.  This will be top 10% teams, maybe with time top 30% teams.  You may find some Random teams that fall into this area, but most will definitely not.  Like the tank below, I could dual build this, one with full offense, and one with full durability 801/hardmode build.  The difference here being the Tank below can hit durability 13, while the Brute will be at most Durability 10, and more likely durability 7.   So not really durable and flexible enough to join any and all random teams as Main Tank.  Eventually as teams get better, people learn more, this Dual Built might end up flexible enough for 80% or 90% of random teams, but I don't think it will ever reach 90% of randoms.
3. Offensive Tanks.  This will be top 30% teams, eventually more.  You'll eventually find more Random teams doing this.  Particularly as everyone learns to build teams, and not just individual builds.  This is about as hopeful as I would bet on.  Great thing here is, you can purposefully Dual Build with intent, one full offense proc build and one full durability 801/hardmode build.  Same tank, fits in with any and all teams, or at least 99%.
4. Standard Tanks.   Everyone else.  If you're Random teaming willy nilly, build that tank has durable as possible and pray to every $diety you can think of.  Because you're in for a wild roller coaster ride.  You might get a sub-40 minute team, and you might get a 4 hour team. /rolldice

Thanks for laying this out Linea. I know you probably have tanked it with Angel Hornet, but would you say the sets for tanking on a tanker you mentioned in the thread (Invuln/Shield/Rad Armor with buffs) hold true on a SCRAPPER as well for best secondaries (outside of EnA)?

[Linea]

Currently, I only know of 3 scrappers that are regularly running main-point for tank-less teams, all three are /EnA.   If things go sideways a Hornet can pull up full durability 7 armor for 3 to 7 minutes depending on build and loadout.  Rommy 'CAN' still one shot a durabilty 7, but only on a lucky hit and only if it's quickly followed by the auto-hit as well, or a double-hit.  The   Twins can still one-shot durability 7, but again it takes a lucky hit, but not two hits in their case.  The twins can one-shot a tank if they get lucky.

[Linea]

Global Channel "Master ITF" :

Quote

 4*ITF 37:52 14deaths @SKULL'S KICKING RECORDS TEAM :
 Scrappers IceBio@Skull IceStone@Betty,
 Corrs IceTime@Adam WaterCold@Acre IceCold@Celest2 IceCold@Rev,
 Defs TimeDP@Dahkness KinDark@EV.  
 

 

So there is a different pair of scrappers.