Melee Powerset Comparison

[tidge]

I'd like the record to show that nerfing %procs will have a bigger effect on other ATs that  have neither the DPS nor the survivability of any of the classes under discussion here. Carry on.

Edited December 13, 2022 by tidge
doublte negative no no removed (or not)

[Erratic1]

35 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Wall of Force is a very proc-friendly, rapid-cycling ranged cone that I like to add to Tankers. I have never like the Fury mechanic, so I've never 'finished' a Brute build, but Brutes can have this power at the same level as Tankers.

 

Was looking at Epic powers but should your build allow, Wall of Force does look to have reasonable recycle times.

 

I tend to lean towards (PB)AoEs because as a melee it makes it easier to hit things not having to think about adopting a position to maximize targets hit. What can I say? I'm lazy.

 

[Ston]

12 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

The margin is not small if you remove the procs.

 

This game is not balanced on procs but SO's...mostly. Procs are a problem.

 

 

 

The gap might by wider for damage with just SOs.. But I’d be concerned about what the Brute would be able to survive. This would also remove ATOs from any testing… which are pretty key in AT balance right now. 

 

If i were to build the Brute with an actual sturdy build, they would definitely have less DPS than a Tanker.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ston

[Gobbledigook]

31 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

The gap might by wider for damage with just SOs.. But I’d be concerned about what the Brute would be able to survive. This would also remove ATOs from any testing… which are pretty key in AT balance right now. 

 

If i were to build the Brute with an actual sturdy build, they would definitely have less DPS than a Tanker.

And that is where you are going wrong, expecting dps and survival all in one.  They are more survivable than Scrappers. They can be buffed way beyond Scrapper survival. They do more damage than Tankers. Brutes do not need much to be made a little better.

 

We do have access to more than 1 build per character.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Gobbledigook]

36 minutes ago, tidge said:

I'd like the record to show that nerfing %procs will have a bigger effect on other ATs that  have neither the DPS nor the survivability of any of the classes under discussion here. Carry on.

Yes it could but hopefully that would be taken into account somehow if it ever happens. Testing and feedback helps.

[tidge]

30 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Was looking at Epic powers but should your build allow, Wall of Force does look to have reasonable recycle times.

 

I tend to lean towards (PB)AoEs because as a melee it makes it easier to hit things not having to think about adopting a position to maximize targets hit. What can I say? I'm lazy.

 

 

I gotcha. I started fooling with Wall of Force because:

• I got used to the travel power (having taken it on a specific character), and I always take a travel power,
• Once the travel power is taken, the barrier to entry is one (of two possible) single-target ranged power (each is proc-able, or for set mules in 'unorthodox' builds I suppose)... I have always taken the debuff Weaken Resolve (better %proc rates!)
• The pool includes a perfectly good LotG mule power as well.

On melee characters, I don't even bother to worry about enhancing range (as I often do with cones, also because 'lazy'). PVP Acc/End/Recharge 50+5 is just fine, even if it nibbles at the proc rates. 2-piece bonuses from either Javelin Volley or Bombardment is usually how I roll, depending on AT. I personally don't slot it with the %-Resistance from Annihilation, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who did so and took the 2-piece +MaxEnd bonus from that choice.

 

As for Epic/Patron powers... sometimes there are some sweet choices! I can see something like Melt Armor speeding up defeat times.. at least if you were to time its use for when you have multiple Boss or high-resist LTs close by, because of the inherently long recharge. AFAIK, this power does require an accuracy check, and given the inherently long recharge (200 seconds?) I think I'd rather just rely on the 30 second single-target recharge of Weaken Resolve for when I need it and drag the undefeated Bosses/Lts to the next spawn. If I want a lil' bit of %-Res I can always add thet %proc to the Wall of Force cone too!

 

Also part of my personal math is this: I rather like it when my (post-50) melee builds play the same (that is, same powers to click) across a wide range of content, including low levels. Having ultra-cool Epic powers but not having them available in low level content makes me somewhat sad. YMMV.

[Erratic1]

Tankers, having better survivability than anyone had to have damage increased to be worthwhile but Brutes should not expect damage and survivability?

 

But Brutes can be buffed!!!!

 

So can Tankers. And already on 13 of 20 melee damage sets apparently without outside buffs they are managing higher DPS (you deal the same damage over a shorter period of time) than Brutes.

 

But bosses!!!!!

 

 You mean the guy you come across at the end of the TF? Probably would have been most time efficient to carry as many Tankers as possible, clear the trash faster, then rely on buffed Tankers (because yes, they can be buffed) to take the boss down. With the gap seen on various powersets there should be plenty of time for the Tanker based team to come out on top.

 

Hmm, you know...maybe that would be a way to find the true measure of things. Put together teams of 5xTankers+ 3xCorruptors/Defenders vs teams of 5xBrutes + 3xCorruptors/Defenders.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

Yet you state the Brute does more damage than the Tanker. Yet you also say the Brute will out dps the Tanker. Which is it?

 

Looks at the sentences and the question a few times.

 

I have been told (in this thread) that I am really not good at this game.  Yet I kind of think the two sentences say the same thing....

 

Anyone have a college course in logic under their belt?  Just kind of look this over carefully?

[Gobbledigook]

Just now, Snarky said:

Looks at the sentences and the question a few times.

 

I have been told (in this thread) that I am really not good at this game.  Yet I kind of think the two sentences say the same thing....

 

Anyone have a college course in logic under their belt?  Just kind of look this over carefully?

Yes that is a slip up lol But you seem educated and surely can work out the meaning.

[Gobbledigook]

19 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Tankers, having better survivability than anyone had to have damage increased to be worthwhile but Brutes should not expect damage and survivability?

 

But Brutes can be buffed!!!!

 

So can Tankers. And already on 13 of 20 melee damage sets apparently without outside buffs they are managing higher DPS (you deal the same damage over a shorter period of time) than Brutes.

 

But bosses!!!!!

 

 You mean the guy you come across at the end of the TF? Probably would have been most time efficient to carry as many Tankers as possible, clear the trash faster, then rely on buffed Tankers (because yes, they can be buffed) to take the boss down. With the gap seen on various powersets there should be plenty of time for the Tanker based team to come out on top.

 

Hmm, you know...maybe that would be a way to find the true measure of things. Put together teams of 5xTankers+ 3xCorruptors/Defenders vs teams of 5xBrutes + 3xCorruptors/Defenders.

Brutes are more survivable than Scrappers but less than Tankers. They do more damage than Tankers but less than Scrappers. Buffs really boost a Brutes survival whilst still have better damage than a Tanker. I feel like a broken record but it does not seem to sink in.

 

There is no actual concrete evidence that Tankers clear mobs faster than Brutes. The testing i have seen i would take with a pinch of salt.

 

It would depend on build/powersets/skill using the power sets etc. Luck and many other variables.

 

Simplify it and the Brute does more damage than the Tanker on SO's. Procs and IO sets have nothing to do with it they are their own separate problem.

[Snarky]

I am hard headed and short sighted.  But I seem to pick up on a theme.  Most folks agree Tankers are now clearing trash faster.  (I could be wrong, in either that Tanks are doing it or that people agree that is what is happening)

 

Here is the thing.  In my view the goal of a good team synergy is to turn ALL mobs faced into "trash" by a combo of buffing the team, debuffing the enemies, and then increasing team damage and accuracy.  Which....favors the large AoE Tanks with the improved damage scalar.  In my opinion.  The AV at the end?  Envenomed dagger or the equivalent from Corruptors, Defenders, and pool powers.  

[Snarky]

3 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Simplify it and the Brute does more damage than the Tanker on SO's. Procs and IO sets have nothing to do with it they are their own separate problem.

When is the last time you ran a 50 for a few days on SOs?  

[Gobbledigook]

6 minutes ago, Snarky said:

When is the last time you ran a 50 for a few days on SOs?  

A couple of days ago.

 

Do you think that you are getting a real indication of Tanker performance when you are adding variables like procs etc into the mix? This game is not balanced on procs. It has been said many times by developers that this game is mostly based on SO's.

 

Take the procs out of the equation. Procs are their own problem as i said. 

 

There really is no point continuing this. You are dead set on "Nerf Tankers" rather than looking at the big picture. Good luck with that. If it happens we will probably see "Nerf Brutes" lol. 

 

Either way this is just meaningless banter.

 

Btw it is not most folks agreeing it is the same small few with a personal grudge against Tankers.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Snarky]

Just now, Gobbledegook said:

A couple of days ago.

 

Do you think that you are getting a real indication of Tanker performance when you are adding variables like procs etc into the mix? This game is not balanced on procs. It has been said many times by developers that this game is mostly based on SO's.

 

Take the procs out of the equation. Procs are their own problem as i said. 

 

There really is no point continuing this. You are dead set on "Nerf Tankers" rather than looking at the big picture. Good luck with that. If it happens we will probably see "Nerf Brutes" lol. 

 

Either way this is just meaningless banter.

You run 50s on SOs?  Why are you even on the boards.  Shouldn't you be changing the ink ribbon on your typewriter?

[Gobbledigook]

Just now, Snarky said:

You run 50s on SOs?  Why are you even on the boards.  Shouldn't you be changing the ink ribbon on your typewriter?

What has anything i do got to do with you?

 

I have seen your builds and wonder why you are even allowed to post sometimes lol.

 

Oh has this just become personal? hmmmmm surprise surprise!

 

 

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

What has anything i do got to do with you?

 

I have seen your builds and wonder why you are even allowed to post sometimes lol.

 

Oh has this just become personal? hmmmmm surprise surprise!

 

 

You run SO builds for days at a time, and do so on a regular enough basis that when asked how long ago could say "a couple days ago"  

 

Enjoy your SO builds. 

 

I will enjoy my I/O builds.

 

And, quite honestly, I do not give a crap about anyone enough to take this stuff personal.  But, old wise men and cagey money making head doctors point out when you bring something up it says a lot about.....you.

[Ston]

The problem persists even without procs though.. Take claws:
 

Tanker:

Spin (Base)	126.5
+ Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership)	234.7
+ Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) + 2 Damage IOs	340.1

 

Brute:

Spin (Base)	78.83
+ 85% Fury + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership)	268.4
+ 85% Fury + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) + 2 Damage IOs	334.1

 

It's not very hard for the Tanker to catch up to Brute damage. It's easier for Claws.. But any set with Build Up will be able to do it in burst damage. Which really is what most engagements come down to.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

You run SO builds for days at a time, and do so on a regular enough basis that when asked how long ago could say "a couple days ago"  

 

Enjoy your SO builds. 

 

I will enjoy my I/O builds.

 

And, quite honestly, I do not give a crap about anyone enough to take this stuff personal.  But, old wise men and cagey money making head doctors point out when you bring something up it says a lot about.....you.

Making shit up yet again.

 

The game is easy. SO offers a challenge. 

 

I have many IO built characters but a change can be fun sometimes.

 

I am glad you enjoy your IO builds at least that is something i guess. 

[Gobbledigook]

13 minutes ago, Ston said:

The problem persists even without procs though.. Take claws:
 

Tanker:

Spin (Base)	126.5
+ Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership)	234.7
+ Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) + 2 Damage IOs	340.1

 

Brute:

Spin (Base)	78.83
+ 85% Fury + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership)	268.4
+ 85% Fury + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) + 2 Damage IOs	334.1

 

It's not very hard for the Tanker to catch up to Brute damage. It's easier for Claws.. But any set with Build Up will be able to do it in burst damage. Which really is what most engagements come down to.

Those are not the figures i am seeing at all. Something is off lol. How did you get 126.5 base damage for Tankers? i am seeing 99.85.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Ston]

4 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Those are not the figures i am seeing at all. Something is off lol.

 

 

This is how I got that. I'm on an older version of mids though. Not sure if anything changed. Brute has Fury set to 85% and both have 2 stacks of Follow Up.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ston

[Gobbledigook]

Just now, Ston said:

 

 

This is how I got that. I'm on an older version of mids though. Not sure if anything changed. Brute has Fury set to 85%

Lol actually check the figure in game and not just mids. That explains a lot.

[Gobbledigook]

That's me done. Have fun lol.

[Snarky]

25 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Making shit up yet again.

 

The game is easy. SO offers a challenge. 

 

I have many IO built characters but a change can be fun sometimes.

 

I am glad you enjoy your IO builds at least that is something i guess. 

What are you accusing me of "making up?"

[Ston]

42 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

That's me done. Have fun lol.

 

Fair. Checked in game and Brute was 310dmg (around 85% Fury), Tanker was 274dmg. Brute was 285dmg around 50% Fury.

My fault, looks like the math doesn't add up correctly in Mids. Looks like Brute is doing about 13% more damage with that setup, assuming you have near full Fury.

Added T4 Musculature Core just to see how that changes:
340.5dmg for Tanker

381.5dmg for Brute

EDIT: More testing...
Tanker/Broadsword/Hack (2 lvl 53 Acc/Dam HOs)
Base + T4 Musc Core = 151.9dmg
Base + T4 Musc Core + Build Up = 207.4dmg

Base + T4 Musc Core + Build Up + Gauss Build Up Proc = 268.8dmg
Brute/Broadsword/Hack (2 lvl 53 Acc/Dam HOs)
Base + T4 Musc Core + 80% Fury = 189.1dmg
Base + T4 Musc Core + 80% Fury + Build Up = 233.1dmg

Base + T4 Musc Core + 80% Fury + Build Up + Gauss Build Up Proc  = 281.5dmg

It does look like the build up procs really start to close the gap. You go from about a 13% difference between base damage (+ Fury) to <5%

Edited December 14, 2022 by Ston

[lightpunch]

I'm pretty unfamiliar with MA. Can anyone explain to me why it performs so highly across all 3? Is it the fast activation times?