Clean up character recomendations

[KaizenSoze]

52 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

I consider having a tanker go forward to herd the next group while someone cleans up the last stragglers to be more cohesive team play.

 

Everyone moving in a clump doing everything together is less teamwork.  It is just mindlessly moving in a herd.

 

Working as a team means characters having roles and doing different things.

You're missing the point. It's one thing to work as a team as you are describing.

 

It's a totally different thing to go run off and play solo leaving the non-fun clean up parts to others.

[SteelRat70]

46 minutes ago, Snarky said:

they have made theings more difficult.  In the starred Aeon and ITF.  But those tactics (real old school, props) dont work a ton in the new content.  The writers accounted for our standard closed shield formation and F-ed with us quite a bit.  Sometimes it works well....othertimes....anything but lolzerg

Serious question.. how much of that is down to those old school tactics not working any more, and how much of it is down to people forgetting how to do them properly due to being used to full on Jenkins regardless of AT?  There have been times, glimpses of co-ordinated awesome where someone (usually the tank) plays like that without feeling the need to rush everything on their own and the rest of the team reads what's happening and everything just clicks in to place.

The crazy thing is that those memories we see people talking about with running across the Hollows at level 6 without a travel power and how many times they'd die doing so I personally think was an absolutely superb, albeit rather harsh, lesson in simple things like group aggro ranges.  That sort of experience can be tremendously beneficial in so many other areas of the game and yet so few people these days appear to understand it - why?  .. because travel powers at level 4, DFB ad nauseum, and very little slapdown for fundamental mistakes.

Edited March 26, 2023 by SteelRat70

[Captain Fabulous]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Tankers SHOULD leave early.  They want to establish aggro and collect the next spawn for efficient disposal before the team Leeroys into it with all their AoE.

 

In my experience, this is only ever a problem... when the tanker isn't the only one leaving early.  No reasonable team of seven other ATs shouldn't be able to dispatch a couple half dead bosses when the rest of the spawn is already on the floor.  But that's not what is happening.  

 

To answer the thread question: Stalker, Scrapper, or Brute.  In that order and preferably with a single-target focus on bosses.  I mean, usual caveat with this game that anything can be made to work, but if we're answering the question in an "all else being equal" manner... that's the answer.

Hard disagree. The tank's job is to hold aggro and protect the team, not run off and leave stragglers behind because he needs to be the star who has to prove how ub3rl33t he is.

When you're playing normal content on a PUG you get all different kinds of ATs, builds, and levels on your team. Do not assume the rest of your team isn't going to get curbstomped by stray bosses you were too lazy or disinterested to go back and deal with. Also, why would you want to run into the next room/spawn if half the team isn't ready because they're dealing with the stragglers you left behind? That's not how a coordinated team works. That's how a tank who thinks they're special and doesn't need the rest of the team works.

I've been on a number of teams I've had to leave because the tanks refused to mop up before running ahead and the squishes kept dying because of it. It's not cool. And it's not fun.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Captain Fabulous

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

A game mechanic that.. "encourages" more cohesive team play thus negating the need for this role in a team in the first place.

That one's simple. Set a radius value for mob defeat; anyone not within that distance of either the defeated mob or the character getting the last hit doesn't get any reward (XP, inf, or drops).

[Captain Fabulous]

2 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

No.  Nothing like that.  Obviously.

Make the game less of a lolzerg cake walk?  Just like the live game did?  Currently there is no real incentive to work together, so few people do.  When was the last time, as a blaster you had to pull mobs from a group to thin the group out a bit, or waited for a tank to corner pull and bunch a group together to make it easier for the /Kin to fs so that the blaster could Nova them to oblivion?  Those kinds of scenarios just don't happen any more, so you're left with this group of 8 people soloing on the same map, largely oblivious of what the rest of the team is doing.  The only reason people play together in the modern game is because of the XP and inf bonuses associated with doing so.  Beyond minimum team requirements for TFs and what you might call "forced group content", there is no other reason to team anymore.

It depends upon what you're playing and who you're playing with. Obviously most of the game's content is going to be trivialized for a team of vet 100+ with full IO gear. But when playing level 30 content on a PUG with a common IO or SO build? Not so much. There's an entire game under level 50 being played by non-godly characters that aren't zerging thru content at +4/x8, where you have to work as a team if you don't want to get wiped. A huge part of the fun of this game is adapting to team composition and figuring out how to do your part to make it successful. Characters can be played in different ways depending upon what's most beneficial to the team, and this is the thing that keeps them feeling fresh and fun to play. At least to me. 🤷‍♀️

[tidge]

42 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Hard disagree. The tank's job is to hold aggro and protect the team, not run off and leave stragglers behind because he needs to be the star who has to prove how ub3rl33t he is.

 

If the Tanker is necessary to clean up a typical boss (or two!) at fractional health, then compared to the rest of the team the Tank IS ub3rl33t. It's not as if the Tanker is going to immediately lose aggro of a single boss by taking the alpha-strike from the next spawn.

[Nemu]

28 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

That one's simple. Set a radius value for mob defeat; anyone not within that distance of either the defeated mob or the character getting the last hit doesn't get any reward (XP, inf, or drops).

It could work against you. You are assuming the people that run ahead aren't capable of soloing mobs by themselves.

 

There are a few things I see that compound the issue discussed here:

 

1 - People join teams and solo, they don't need a team, they just want an audience (I do that sometimes as well). But they can't read team dynamics and adjust accordingly.

2 - Poor to non-existent targeting priority. Most people I see just tab and latch onto whatever that target is. Bosses are 99% of the time the highest threat/hardest to take down and it wouldn't be as much an issue if they were focused down first. Instead you get folks that two shot minions/LT and think that's it and move on to the next group, leaving the things that actually NEED to be DPSed down to teammates less capable of doing so.

 

Honestly #2 irks me more than #1. Like if you are here flexing then actually do something more impressive than 2 shoting minions. That's fucking scrub tier.

[SteelRat70]

55 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

It depends upon what you're playing and who you're playing with. Obviously most of the game's content is going to be trivialized for a team of vet 100+ with full IO gear. But when playing level 30 content on a PUG with a common IO or SO build? Not so much. There's an entire game under level 50 being played by non-godly characters that aren't zerging thru content at +4/x8, where you have to work as a team if you don't want to get wiped. A huge part of the fun of this game is adapting to team composition and figuring out how to do your part to make it successful. Characters can be played in different ways depending upon what's most beneficial to the team, and this is the thing that keeps them feeling fresh and fun to play. At least to me. 🤷‍♀️

I do agree with this; the trouble is the revised exemping system means there's no reason why one or more of those god tier 50s (which, let's face it are in plentyful supply!) doesn't join in  to give exactly the same result.

Perhaps you're right and this is somewhat controllable with a regular group of people to play with.

[SteelRat70]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Hard disagree. The tank's job is to hold aggro and protect the team, not run off and leave stragglers behind because he needs to be the star who has to prove how ub3rl33t he is.

When you're playing normal content on a PUG you get all different kinds of ATs, builds, and levels on your team. Do not assume the rest of your team isn't going to get curbstomped by stray bosses you were too lazy or disinterested to go back and deal with. Also, why would you want to run into the next room/spawn if half the team isn't ready because they're dealing with the stragglers you left behind? That's not how a coordinated team works. That's how a tank who thinks they're special and doesn't need the rest of the team works.

I've been on a number of teams I've had to leave because the tanks refused to mop up before running ahead and the squishes kept dying because of it. It's not cool. And it's not fun.

This.  All of it. 100%

[Captain Fabulous]

45 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

If the Tanker is necessary to clean up a typical boss (or two!) at fractional health, then compared to the rest of the team the Tank IS ub3rl33t. It's not as if the Tanker is going to immediately lose aggro of a single boss by taking the alpha-strike from the next spawn.

But that's the whole point of a Tank. They have increased HPs and armors so that they can withstand attacks from bosses that would easily kill ATs with far fewer HPs and no protection. You don't need to be ub3rl33t to help your teammates not die -- just do your job and distract them while everyone else pummels them. Blasters, Controllers, and Dominators (and some Corruptors too) are well-known for their ability to peel critters off Tanks. Tsoo, Malta, and Sky Raiders teleport all around. Freaks rez themselves. CoT ghosts will disappear, run away, and come back. Council wolves move VERY fast. A poorly-aligned knockback can push a critter(s) out of a Tank's aggro range. A targeting error can accidentally aggro a second mob. And many missions have ambush spawns that come from behind. There are plenty of reasons why a Tank can lose aggro on one or more critters that are going to bear down and squash the back line. The Tank should be there to protect them, not running off to the next spawn. Now if the back line is strong enough to deal with strays then that's a different story. But I've been on too many teams where this was not the case and people were unnecessarily dying because the Tank was hell bent on getting to the end of mission as quickly as possible instead of doing his job.

[Captain Fabulous]

35 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

I do agree with this; the trouble is the revised exemping system means there's no reason why one or more of those god tier 50s (which, let's face it are in plentyful supply!) doesn't join in  to give exactly the same result.

Perhaps you're right and this is somewhat controllable with a regular group of people to play with.

This goes back to what I said, that you play differently based upon the team composition. If there is no danger of people being wiped out by stray critters then sure, run ahead. But if not, then you need to stick around and help cleanup to ensure no one dies.

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

That one's simple. Set a radius value for mob defeat; anyone not within that distance of either the defeated mob or the character getting the last hit doesn't get any reward (XP, inf, or drops).

 

this is such an interesting suggestion - wonder if it should be its own threat for discussion. wonder how it would change the way teams play

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, Nemu said:

It could work against you. You are assuming the people that run ahead aren't capable of soloing mobs by themselves.

 

There are a few things I see that compound the issue discussed here:

 

1 - People join teams and solo, they don't need a team, they just want an audience (I do that sometimes as well). But they can't read team dynamics and adjust accordingly.

2 - Poor to non-existent targeting priority. Most people I see just tab and latch onto whatever that target is. Bosses are 99% of the time the highest threat/hardest to take down and it wouldn't be as much an issue if they were focused down first. Instead you get folks that two shot minions/LT and think that's it and move on to the next group, leaving the things that actually NEED to be DPSed down to teammates less capable of doing so.

 

Honestly #2 irks me more than #1. Like if you are here flexing then actually do something more impressive than 2 shoting minions. That's fucking scrub tier.

Tanks that run in and aggro the entire room, immediately run to the next room after the Blaster nuke, and expects everyone else to finish off what's left definitely fall into both these categories.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Captain Fabulous

[Captain Fabulous]

3 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

this is such an interesting suggestion - wonder if it should be its own threat for discussion. wonder how it would change the way teams play

It would decimate door-sitting. Whether that's a good or bad thing is an entire discussion of its own.

[lemming]

I think it really depends on the team composition and there is no real hard rule on when the tank can zip off to start gathering up the next grouping.

 

Heck, last night, we had a brute bringing the next mob back to the team where the tank would then grab the agro, rinse, repeat.  Mainly worked because of communication, which might really be what's needed instead of tacking on more mechanics.

[SteelRat70]

2 minutes ago, lemming said:

Mainly worked because of communication, which might really be what's needed instead of tacking on more mechanics.

Agreed - but again, difficulty or challenge is what generally promotes communication.  Certain changes in mechanic have (at least imo) reduced the need for communication and also the consequence of poor team play and / or poor communication (namely frequent individual defeat, or team wipe), so there's little incentive to co-operate fully.  Path of least resistance still leads to successful completion.
 

[SteelRat70]

48 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

This goes back to what I said, that you play differently based upon the team composition. If there is no danger of people being wiped out by stray critters then sure, run ahead. But if not, then you need to stick around and help cleanup to ensure no one dies.

Totally - however both situations require some head-out-of-backside awareness on the part of everyone, particularly those individuals who want to run ahead without thinking about what they're leaving behind (and this of course isn't just limited to Tanks).

[lemming]

And there is content

3 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

Agreed - but again, difficulty or challenge is what generally promotes communication.  Certain changes in mechanic have (at least imo) reduced the need for communication and also the consequence of poor team play and / or poor communication (namely frequent individual defeat, or team wipe), so there's little incentive to co-operate fully.  Path of least resistance still leads to successful completion.

I don't see much of an issue with the majority of the players.   The nice thing is, one bad player usually doesn't screw up the entire show.   Normally, just is another way to be a bit flexible.   Sometimes, you nudge the player to not lockdown/knockback groups prematurely, sometimes you figure out a way around it.

 

There are enemy mobs where tactics do come more into play.  (Or early builds)

 

You also may want to try out some smaller teams?

[SteelRat70]

4 minutes ago, lemming said:

The nice thing is, one bad player usually doesn't screw up the entire show

That's because it's far more difficult to screw up the entire show.  Behaviour that would have done that no longer does, so there's no incentive to not do things that would; mis targetting and aggroing another group, not paying attention and causing a team split, as two very clear examples.
 

 

5 minutes ago, lemming said:

You also may want to try out some smaller teams?

Not sure it's team size that's the issue, but honestly, I'll likely be far choosier on the teams that I do join.

[ZemX]

6 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I am going to disagree. As I said many times on forums, watch the behavior of tanks/brutes on a kill most Market Crash to see this issue.

 

Players seem to forget there is an aggro cap. It is extremely common for 3-5 Freakshow bosses to be running around all over the place while the "tank" is half up the map.

 

Nobody is advocating being "half up the map" from the rest of the team, nor was that the complaint I responded to.  It was any tank leaving the fight early.  No qualifications.  That statement, I object to.

 

The right way to do it is to judge when the previous fight is about 10-15 seconds from being over.  Move to aggro the next spawn.  If possible, get it to clump together on you before the rest of the team arrives.

 

Where people get left behind to die to straggler bosses is when half the team abandons the fight along with the tank.  If I notice that going on, I stick around behind and let the dps squirrels deal with the alphas for the next group if they're so eager.  Sometimes they can.  Sometimes they can't.   I do whatever seems to work best on the team.  That just doesn't every time mean staying till the last enemy is on the floor before moving.  Sometimes it does.  Usually it doesn't.  Most teams are more than capable to deal with a few half dead bosses while I get their next meal ready for them.

 

Disagree with that if you like, but I've gotten enough compliments in game on my tanking to figure I must be doing something right.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Tanks that run in and aggro the entire room, immediately run to the next room after the Blaster nuke, and expects everyone else to finish off what's left definitely fall into both these categories.

 

Are you sure you weren't teaming with Strawman the Logical Fallacy?

[tidge]

7 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I am going to disagree. As I said many times on forums, watch the behavior of tanks/brutes on a kill most Market Crash to see this issue.

 

Players seem to forget there is an aggro cap. It is extremely common for 3-5 Freakshow bosses to be running around all over the place while the "tank" is half up the map.

 

I have seen this behavior again and again with many different groups, so it's not just a few players.

 

Market Crash is a very particular instance, especially if trying for the Valet Badge:

• Any character that barrels in is going to start the Freak attacks.
• There are spawns that are near cars/trucks, and spawns that are not. For example: Ignore the Skiffs!
• Best practice is to pull enemies away from cars/trucks but not try to herd them. It is important to see which enemies are still attacking cars/trucks.
• The team really cannot stay together in order to save all the cars/trucks. The team does have to split up in order to save the cars/trucks, so it isn't as if any one AT can take the blame (unless it is a character that stands next to a car/truck while taking enemy AoE)

Now... if the discussion is about the Freaks in anyone of the preceding missions of Market Crash... I mean, they are Freakshow, so they will rez. I don't think it is fair to expect everybody on a fast-moving team to slow down just to see which ones do rez.

 

 

[Songseven]

if its bothering you that much, why aren't you moving to where the tank now is..

[Mjolnerd]

At this point I think we're discussing a larger issue, namely one of philosophy. As a consequence of the game being brought back after shutdown, the player base is nowadays mostly made up of hardcore fans, with very few casual ones -- those people all moved on a decade ago. But there are really two kinds of "hardcore fans":

• The professionals who are invested in all aspects of the game as a game to the point that they've "solved the puzzle" of making everything as effective and streamlined as possible -- we employ this tactic, I go here and use my carefully-cultivated attack chain, you target a particular enemy and use this power and only this power, everybody gets a million Inf and we move on to the next spawn ten seconds later because we followed proper procedure and did things the best way possible.
• The romantics who are invested in playing whatever they're playing right now because they think the powers are fun and the costume they made for it looks cool, or for some other, personal reason that's isn't PEAK PERFORMANCE DAMMIT and haven't actually taken the time to math out the most efficient possible sequence of attacks to use at any given moment, they just pop the basic ones off as they're recharged and use special ones for special situations.

Obviously it's a spectrum and everybody is going to fall somewhere in the middle, but the game dying and being resurrected is by its very nature going to attract mostly people on the extremes -- the most hardcore of the hardcores, even if for very different reasons. And of those, the ones like us here who would actually take time out of their day on the regular to argue about game-related issues on an internet message board? The extra-most-hardcorest of the hardcore. Frankly, it's a game and most people just don't care that much. The forum crowd for any type of entertainment represents the ends of the bell curve.

 

Unfortunately, that means we find ourselves in a situation where a bunch of MLB All-Stars are trying to share a field with a beer league softball team just looking for an excuse to get out of the house on a Thursday night. One side feels like their time is being wasted playing with people who can't hit an 80mph fastball in a million years, the other thinks the first is taking things way too seriously by throwing pitches they know full well are impossible to hit in a game that's supposed to be for fun. And, to some degree, they're actually both right.

[KaizenSoze]

29 minutes ago, tidge said:

Now... if the discussion is about the Freaks in anyone of the preceding missions of Market Crash... I mean, they are Freakshow, so they will rez. I don't think it is fair to expect everybody on a fast-moving team to slow down just to see which ones do rez.

 

I am specifically taking the first Market Crash mission. The problem is not even the rez'ed tanks, it is literally the tank running half way up the map leaving multiple bosses roaming around.

 

I have seen again and again, the tank aggros one groups, jump over the next one, then up the tunnel. The hit the aggro cap on the second group, so what to the bosses do. Turn on the rest of the team.

 

12 minutes ago, Songseven said:

if its bothering you that much, why aren't you moving to where the tank now is..

Because I generally run kill mosts and the un-aggro'ed groups are often quite a few mobs which are tearing up the squishier teammates. So, I stop like a good teammate and help clear the strays.