New Powerset: Quick (or something speedster themed)

[Gloomfall]

For the longest time I've been trying to find a quick and fun primary power set so I can live out my speedster fantasies. While it is possible to cobble something together through Street Justice, Martial Arts, or Energy Melee.. There's just nothing that 'feels' quite like a pure speedster power set. Super Reflexes fits really well for a secondary power set but it doesn't seem like there's much to pair it with otherwise.

 

Some things I'd really like to see in that power set. Most of the attacks should be faster than the average recharge rate and lower than average consumption of endurance while possibly tuning the damage down slightly. The attacks should execute quickly allow you to chain them together without much of a delay, or they should execute multiple attacks in succession similar to the 'Flurry' speed power. For a secondary effect I could see disorient and accuracy debuffs being a common theme.

 

It'd be nice to have a dash power of some kind that allows you to dash quickly to a target to 'engage' it with an attack allowing you to very quickly jump between targets without having to worry about overshooting due to your quick speed.

 

I could probably put together a sample power set for the community to look at but I'd love to hear whether or not there's a demand for something like this and if so, what the community thinks that this kind of power set would look like.

[FupDup]

53 minutes ago, Gloomfall said:

For the longest time I've been trying to find a quick and fun primary power set so I can live out my speedster fantasies. While it is possible to cobble something together through Street Justice, Martial Arts, or Energy Melee.. There's just nothing that 'feels' quite like a pure speedster power set. Super Reflexes fits really well for a secondary power set but it doesn't seem like there's much to pair it with otherwise.

 

Some things I'd really like to see in that power set. Most of the attacks should be faster than the average recharge rate and lower than average consumption of endurance while possibly tuning the damage down slightly. The attacks should execute quickly allow you to chain them together without much of a delay, or they should execute multiple attacks in succession similar to the 'Flurry' speed power. For a secondary effect I could see disorient and accuracy debuffs being a common theme.

 

It'd be nice to have a dash power of some kind that allows you to dash quickly to a target to 'engage' it with an attack allowing you to very quickly jump between targets without having to worry about overshooting due to your quick speed.

 

I could probably put together a sample power set for the community to look at but I'd love to hear whether or not there's a demand for something like this and if so, what the community thinks that this kind of power set would look like.

The issue is that Claws already fills the combat role of "fast attacks with low endurance cost," even if the theme is drastically different from what you're looking for. Dark Melee already has to-hit debuffs and Energy melee already has disorientation. 

 

An alternate idea could be to add alternate animations for various melee sets that make it look like you're throwing a whole bunch of punches in the same time span that the default animation only punches once, but IDK if we still have the old issue where the game can only handle a predetermined number of animations and we can't add any more. 

[Gloomfall]

I don't mind having alternative animations or graphics for other power sets.. But since they've been adding additional power sets, I don't think it's an unreasonable ask to have one themed solely around a speedster style of combat. Especially since it's such an iconic character archetype in comics and other superhero stories.

[Rudra]

What would this new power set consist of that is not already covered by the Speed power pool, Street Justice, Staff Fighting, Claws, or Dual Blades melee power sets? What would the specific powers be? How would you make it unique from existing sets? It's all well and good to say you want something, but if you don't clarify what it is you are asking for, how is anyone supposed to know what to go for? What exactly are you asking for?

 

Asking for alternate animations for powers can provide the solution for a lot of what we players ask for. And requires less work than trying to come up with a whole new set that is different somehow from every other existing power set in the game. And the devs are arguably rather busy, seeing as how this is not their job. So providing more data can go a long way to helping your suggestion.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to pluralize "players" and add "melee power sets".

[Saiyajinzoningen]

pair Dark melees "shadow maul" with Super speeds "Flurry" and a "Sands of mu" to get that speedster vibe going

[biostem]

Roll something like an energy blast/martial combat blaster - focus mainly on the secondary, take the fighting and speed pools, and you're pretty much set.  Burst of speed + flurry can be pretty fun!

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

pair Dark melees "shadow maul" with Super speeds "Flurry" and a "Sands of mu" to get that speedster vibe going

Didn't think of that. And though Sands of Mu (available from the P2W vendor for free) can't be enhanced (except by globals?), Shadow Maul and Flurry can and you can pretty much build a chain across those three.

 

Threw a Mids build together with just Shadow Maul and Flurry in it to check and got the following results:

 

Shadow Maul (6-slotted with Fury of the Gladiator):

END cost: 5.3

Recharge: 5.92 seconds.

Cast time: 2.37 seconds with 2.367 seconds animation time.

 

Flurry (6-slotted with Gladiator's Strike):

END cost: 3.39

Recharge: 1.62 seconds.

Cast time: 3.07 seconds with 3.067 seconds animation time.

 

So you could feasibly just keep going back and forth between these two. 😄

Edited April 7, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to remove extra 3. And again to add missing "together".

[Gloomfall]

So, I don't mind giving a brief write-up of a set of powers that I think might work nicely for what I've got in mind. Though, I did want to first address some of the criticisms that I got.

• Claws is the 'quick melee' and 'low endurance cost' power set.
• Dark Melee already has to-hit debuffs and Energy Melee already has disorientation.
• What would this power set contain that isn't already covered by a mix of other power sets?

First, to address Claws. I'd be fine with a different skin on the powers to make it fit the theme of a speedster powerset, though it's definitely not the only 'quick' and 'low cost' power set when it comes to Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers. Katana is also a pretty quick recharge set that has relatively low costs. And when you start looking at the average and slower power sets they are not shy when it comes to adding in a variety either for functionality purposes or for theme purposes. Adding a new set that actually feels good for a stereotypical speedster fighting style may not be high up on their priority list but I don't think it's something that should invalidate the possibility.

 

Second, to address feedback about Dark Melee and Energy Melee having to-hit debuffs and disorientation effects I'd like to point out that a number of power sets have these types of effects. It really comes down to how often those effects show up in each power set. I don't think that every single ability in the Speedster power set I'm suggesting should have these effects, I'm just suggesting some possibilities. Things that might make sense for this power set would be something like to-hit debuffs, temporary defense buffs, or disorientation effects. It doesn't need to be the primary theme of the power set.

 

Third, to address the last main piece of feedback I got regarding what this set would contain that isn't already covered by a mix of other sets.. Right now it is extremely hard to come up with a stereotypical speedster character. You can somewhat pull it off through piecemeal picking and choosing of several different sets, however it can feel a little bit 'janky' to do both on acquisition and on execution. Flurry/Dark Melee/Sands of Mu all feel really good in terms of what an attack might look like for a Speedster but they have a pretty nasty animation lock through a long execution time and they all pretty much look the same with maybe a different coat of paint on each. You also can't enhance Sands of Mu so that very quickly drops off. Most other power sets have abilities that may be able to be considered a speedster power but just don't 'feel' right with how long they take to execute and how long they take to recharge. One thing I'd also like to see that I mentioned previously is a bit of a 'dash' to a target to attack. I think being able to zip between targets like that as a melee character would feel really fun and thematic as a speedster, though I'm not sure on whether it's possible with the tech they have available to them in the game.

 

Finally, here's a sample of some ideas I've got that might work well as a power set. Though, it's just a shot in the dark as to what I think might work well.

 

Speed Brawling

 

Quick Attack - Quick Left Jab - Very Fast Recharge - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

One Two - Quick One Two Punch - Fast Recharge - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

Furious Assault - Moderate Damage AoE - Disorient - Similar to Flurry

Build Up

Fast and Furious - Quick Right Hook - Self Defense Buff - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

Confront/Taunt/Placate

Whirlwind - Similar to Super Speed Power

Siphon Speed - Defense Debuff on Enemies - Defense Buff to Self - Restores Endurance to Self

Infinite Mass Punch - Extreme Damage - Knock Up - Disorient - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Gloomfall said:

Speed Brawling

 

Quick Attack - Quick Left Jab - Very Fast Recharge - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

One Two - Quick One Two Punch - Fast Recharge - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

Furious Assault - Moderate Damage AoE - Disorient - Similar to Flurry

Build Up

Fast and Furious - Quick Right Hook - Self Defense Buff - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

Confront/Taunt/Placate

Whirlwind - Similar to Super Speed Power

Siphon Speed - Defense Debuff on Enemies - Defense Buff to Self - Restores Endurance to Self

Infinite Mass Punch - Extreme Damage - Knock Up - Disorient - Rush to Target if outside of Melee Range

Looks good. Thanks.

[MHertz]

The thing about a speedster is that it is both attack and defense. The only way to really be fair about it is to make an Epic Archetype (like a Kheldian) with speed-based primary and secondary pools. If Quickpunch is an attack powerset, what happens when you pair it with Stone Armor?

 

The same would go for, say, Shapeshifter or Size Change. The means of attack is built into the means of defense (eg, turn into an elephant or shrink to gnat size and deliver a super-punch).

[biostem]

Just now, MHertz said:

The thing about a speedster is that it is both attack and defense.

Super reflexes basically already covers the defense part.  All you'd need is a melee set that best encapsulates the feel of super speed.  Heck, you could even incorporate a few "ranged" attacks, which function like the vorpal Incarnate judgement power, where afterimages of your character strike the target from afar, to complete the feel.  You could even ape the "burst of speed' power from the blaster secondary... 

[A.I.D.A.]

Is there any reason you couldn't just give your speedster a katana or a staff? What's anti-thematic about speedsters with weapons?

 

Staff also has the distinction of being really good paired with Super Reflex.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

Is there any reason you couldn't just give your speedster a katana or a staff? What's anti-thematic about speedsters with weapons?

Generally it's because that is *not* how the Flash, Quicksilver, or the like, are portrayed in the comics...

[A.I.D.A.]

I'm not sure that really matters. Any punch-melee set can already be that. Electric Melee especially -- it even has a teleport attack. I'm also not really sure that 'how X is portrayed in comics' needs to be a thing, either. I don't think we really need 'martial arts but faster, with all the damage formula adjustments elsewhere which that entails.'

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

I'm not sure that really matters. Any punch-melee set can already be that. Electric Melee especially -- it even has a teleport attack. I'm also not really sure that 'how X is portrayed in comics' needs to be a thing, either. I don't think we really need 'martial arts but faster, with all the damage formula adjustments elsewhere which that entails.'

You realize the CoH is a game heavily inspired by/based upon, comic book portrayals, yes?  How characters in comics are depicted is very much intrinsic to how new powersets should be implemented.  Things like the many-fists punch or flash-steps are iconic speedster powers...

[A.I.D.A.]

I'm just gonna respectfully disagree. The only reason we "shouldn't" have speedsters with swords is because Marvel and DC didn't draw any? That's a bit silly. The thematic for a speedster is being really, really fast -- whether that's really fast and breaks time, or just really fast in a more sensible way. It's got nothing to do with the presence or absence of weapons. The only thing you really need in order to be a speedster, is your preference of Super Speed or Speed of Sound.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[MHertz]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

Super reflexes basically already covers the defense part.  

While this is true, if Quickpunch were an attack set it could be paired with anything, even slow-as-molasses Stone Armor or I-can-walk-faster-than-that Ice Blast. This might yield weird results. You can’t guarantee people get the conceptually matching speedster armor unless you forced it to be so. Or, forbid combinations that don’t tie in (like dual blades + shield).

Edited April 8, 2023 by MHertz

[Gloomfall]

4 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

I'm just gonna respectfully disagree. The only reason we "shouldn't" have speedsters with swords is because Marvel and DC didn't draw any? That's a bit silly. The thematic for a speedster is being really, really fast -- whether that's really fast and breaks time, or just really fast in a more sensible way. It's got nothing to do with the presence or absence of weapons. The only thing you really need in order to be a speedster, is your preference of Super Speed or Speed of Sound.

 

 

The main difference here is that it is currently possible to make a Speedster with a Sword... It's not however possible to make a Speedster with an iconic comic book fighting style. There in lies the issue that I'm hoping to address.

[A.I.D.A.]

3 minutes ago, Gloomfall said:

 

The main difference here is that it is currently possible to make a Speedster with a Sword... It's not however possible to make a Speedster with an iconic comic book fighting style. There in lies the issue that I'm hoping to address.

 

Are you sure? Electric Melee is right there. Electric Melee / Super Reflex scrapper with Super Speed is literally how the Flash would be represented in this game's mechanics. Tack on electric or Mu ancillary for the lightning throw thing. The running-in-a-circle whirlwind thing is in the Super Speed pool too.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[Gloomfall]

2 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

 

Are you sure? Electric Melee is right there.

Electric Melee more closely resembles a character like Electro with Electricity Control powers. While it does make for an interesting speedster, it's not really the most iconic speedster fighting style. The closest one to it would honestly be Dark Melee, themed around speed. But even that isn't quite there.

[A.I.D.A.]

4 minutes ago, Gloomfall said:

Electric Melee more closely resembles a character like Electro with Electricity Control powers. While it does make for an interesting speedster, it's not really the most iconic speedster fighting style. The closest one to it would honestly be Dark Melee, themed around speed. But even that isn't quite there.

 

 

Look at all that lightning.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

I'm just gonna respectfully disagree. The only reason we "shouldn't" have speedsters with swords is because Marvel and DC didn't draw any? That's a bit silly. The thematic for a speedster is being really, really fast -- whether that's really fast and breaks time, or just really fast in a more sensible way. It's got nothing to do with the presence or absence of weapons. The only thing you really need in order to be a speedster, is your preference of Super Speed or Speed of Sound.

You are missing the point.  It's that you can't really get a full set that depicts an ICONIC speedster.  You could RP any character you wanted from Issue 0, but there are woefully fewer powerset that one can use to realize the multitude of concepts, including fairly iconic ones as depicted on comics...

[A.I.D.A.]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

You are missing the point.  It's that you can't really get a full set that depicts an ICONIC speedster.  You could RP any character you wanted from Issue 0, but there are woefully fewer powerset that one can use to realize the multitude of concepts, including fairly iconic ones as depicted on comics...

 

I'm not missing your point. I just think it's an incorrect point. Please look above for the most iconic speedster in all of comics, and the constant lightning he's surrounded with, punches with, and slings around, while going fast. I associate the Flurry / Dark Maul animation more with JoJo protagonists than with speedsters, honestly. It's the oraoraora punch. XD

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

I'm not missing your point. I just think it's an incorrect point. Please look above for the most iconic speedster in all of comics, and the constant lightning he's surrounded with, punches with, and slings around, while going fast. I associate the Flurry / Dark Maul animation more with JoJo protagonists than with speedsters, honestly. It's the oraoraora punch. XD

The Flash is not an electric character, though.  The lightning and electricity are references to how he's fast, not that he shocks people.  Yes, he utilizes built up static electricity in a few circumstances, but what you pointed to is more an artistic depiction of the speed force.  The Flash has also ignited things via friction.  Does that make fire melee appropriate for him?  He's kicked up whirlwinds and tornadoes by rapidly moving his hands and feet - does that make him some sort of wind melee character?  Those are all secondary effects or depictions of his true superpower - speed.

[A.I.D.A.]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

The Flash is not an electric character, though.  The lightning and electricity are references to how he's fast, not that he shocks people.  Yes, he utilizes built up static electricity in a few circumstances, but what you pointed to is more an artistic depiction of the speed force.  The Flash has also ignited things via friction.  Does that make fire melee appropriate for him?  He's kicked up whirlwinds and tornadoes by rapidly moving his hands and feet - does that make him some sort of wind melee character?  Those are all secondary effects or depictions of his true superpower - speed.

 

If you say so. I still don't think we need another plain boring punching set. It's never going to have cooler animations than Street Justice already has -- which, I might add, many of Street Justice's animations are multi-impact even if they're not multiple damage packets. Street Justice visually feels very fast. It isn't 'cobbled together,' like the OP suggests. This thread is just asking for something we basically already have, in multiple flavours. I'd rather see the devs' time go towards interesting new powersets with interesting new mechanics. Like the storm blast they just announced in the next page.

 

Anyway! We're approaching dead-horse levels of back-and-forth, so I'm gonna go to sleep. I said my piece.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe