Speedsters, Burst of Speed and a Speed Pool revamp

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, Random Axis said:

Similarly, Hasten is too good to be without and means your four pool choices are really only three, and THAT is what I want to break.

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion.  Almost none of my characters have hasten, and I rarely see people with the "shwoom" effect going on over and over in team play.  Regardless, the change to fitness had to do with the fundamental ability to play for all people.  If you "need" hasten in order to play, then that's on you, not the game...

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Random Axis said:

As a history lesson, The Inherent pool used to be the fitness pool, and only took on its current form because...wait for it...it was constraining builds because it was so good everyone took it. You certainly don't seem to mind that change. Similarly, Hasten is too good to be without and means your four pool choices are really only three, and THAT is what I want to break. 

 

There are more ways than that of making it happen though. I'd be just as happy if Hasten's recharge could not be reduced like with Rune of Protection. That gets rid of perma-Hasten making the skill much less valuable and less of a must-have. Or change the minor endurance drain at the end to a moderate -recovery effect (let's pull -40% for 60 seconds out our rear ends). That's not a big deal if Hasten is something you pop for a boss fight, but having permanent hasten permanently gimps your character.

 

I've got plenty of ideas for those other powers too, but I don't want a big sidetrack on the details of those. Plus, there's a huge difference between taking a power just to slot enhancements into vs one you take for the power's effects. Your blaster isn't taking hasten so it can hold two -recharge IOs, and they aren't taking weave or maneuvers for the defense bonus.

(Edit: Can't strike through emojis, so deleted instead.)

 

Okay, as a history lesson, I remember when the Fitness pool was actually a power pool. And I did not take it very often. A carefully built character could get by just fine without it. And yes, I was not happy when they changed Fitness from a power pool to an inherent. In point of fact, while we still had the option to choose whether we wanted legacy fitness or inherent fitness? Guess what I chose. I chose legacy fitness instead of inherent and then just didn't use it. Then even that choice got taken away from us. (Edit: And yes, on pre-inherent Fitness characters, we could choose to still not have inherent Fitness at the time. And then all characters were auto-changed to inherent Fitness.)

 

As for Hasten being too good to be without, not a single one of my characters has Hasten and they all do perfectly fine without it. That's at +0/x1. That's at +4/x8. That's playing solo, on a team, or on a league. You have four pool choices. If you are dead set on taking Hasten, that is your choice. And so uses one of your pool picks.

 

And the part I find absolutely hilarious? "Hasten is too good to be without" followed by "having Hasten permanently gimps your character". So either it is too good to be without or it permanently gimps your character. You can't claim both. They are contrary. And if it permanently gimps your character, then why are you taking it? Edit: Okay, I see what you are saying. However, taking a -40% REC when a player can easily hit +200% or higher REC, is not a gimp. Also, if you are set on nerfing Hasten, then why are you taking it?

 

"They aren't taking Weave or Maneuvers for the defense bonus"? Then what are they taking those defense powers for?

 

If you want build diversity in your characters, then you build it into your characters.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Rudra
Edited for grammar.

[Rigged]

For heaven's sake I specifically avoided making references (and in fact deleted a whole chunk of my post that did) to the balance of Hasten because I did not want to ignite the literally almost-decades-old discussion on it that derails EVERY SINGLE SPEEDSTER SPEED POOL REVAMP THREAD.

 

I am NOT advocating any change to the status of Hasten, UNLESS the HC devs insist on keeping the speed pool to exactly five powers, meaning that to add a new one would require moving or removing another. I suggest either Hasten or Burnout, because those do not have a speedster-aesthetic animation, that is, they could easily belong to another power pool that is not Speed. I have long ago given up on the Hasten balance question, and I only care about getting more speedster powers. I want a more cohesive speedster pool, only. I am happy to have no changes to the Speed pool if a new Speedster powerset becomes available. 

 

If you would like to discuss whether Hasten should be made inherent or whether it should be removed/nerfed because it is overpowered or whether it should be put in a different power pool simply to free up one of the 4 power pools or conversely if you never want it to be changed ever, please consider making a new thread. Because otherwise this is going to end up derailed into another long flame-war where lots of people make the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS SINCE FRIGGIN BETA, NINETEEN YEARS AGO. That's right, the Hasten argument is OLD ENOUGH TO VOTE. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Rigged

[Greycat]

On 5/22/2023 at 6:51 PM, Random Axis said:

As a history lesson, The Inherent pool used to be the fitness pool, and only took on its current form because...wait for it...it was constraining builds because it was so good everyone took it. You certainly don't seem to mind that change. Similarly, Hasten is too good to be without and means your four pool choices are really only three, and THAT is what I want to break.

 

I tend to go without hasten - or, if anything, as a "ok, I'm 49 and have everything I want, what could I pick" power that goes unslotted.

 

Hasten's not in the same boat the fitness pool was back in the day by a long shot.

[Greycat]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:04 PM, biostem said:

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion.  Almost none of my characters have hasten, and I rarely see people with the "shwoom" effect going on over and over in team play. 

 

Juuuuuust as a nitpick - since as just mentioned I rarely take it either - the lack of "schwoom" can just indicate a visit to the tailor, too. 😉

 

On 5/22/2023 at 7:36 PM, Rudra said:

(Edit: And yes, on pre-inherent Fitness characters, we could choose to still not have inherent Fitness at the time. And then all characters were auto-changed to inherent Fitness.)

 

(And while I'm nitpicking - nope. Still had at least one legacy character at shutdown with old-fitness. You just could never *respec* them without losing it. Just a historical nitpick. It confused a few people near the end to see it...)

Edited May 24, 2023 by Greycat

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

On 5/22/2023 at 6:36 PM, Rudra said:

(Edit: And yes, on pre-inherent Fitness characters, we could choose to still not have inherent Fitness at the time. And then all characters were auto-changed to inherent Fitness.)

 

(And while I'm nitpicking - nope. Still had at least one legacy character at shutdown with old-fitness. You just could never *respec* them without losing it. Just a historical nitpick. It confused a few people near the end to see it...)

I'd like to know how you pulled that off, even though it doesn't matter any more. Eventually, even without respec'ing, all my pre-inherent fitness characters wound up with inherent fitness. It was rather upsetting at the time.

 

(Edit: I was rather proud of several of those characters. Everyone kept telling me that specific ATs using specific power sets could not be played without the Fitness pool, and I very much enjoyed running those ATs with those power sets without Fitness. Since those characters didn't have the Fitness pool though, they automatically had it forced on them since they lacked legacy Fitness to prevent it.)

Edited May 24, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

Juuuuuust as a nitpick - since as just mentioned I rarely take it either - the lack of "schwoom" can just indicate a visit to the tailor, too. 😉

Does the sound still play, though?  Hasten's is pretty distinctive, and you tend to notice it going off over and over again...

[The Chairman]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

Does the sound still play, though?  Hasten's is pretty distinctive, and you tend to notice it going off over and over again...

 

The sound still plays, and your character still undergoes the activation animation. The tailor just makes it so your arms aren't aglow.

 

If there is a way to remove the activation animation, I would be interested in learning. I like the sound since it reassures me that the power has, in fact, gone off.

Edited May 24, 2023 by The Chairman

[Greycat]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'd like to know how you pulled that off, even though it doesn't matter any more. Eventually, even without respec'ing, all my pre-inherent fitness characters wound up with inherent fitness. It was rather upsetting at the time.

 

 

I just didn't respec that character. It had the old Fitness on one build all the way to the end.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

 

I just didn't respec that character. It had the old Fitness on one build all the way to the end.

Then either I respec'ed those characters and forgot, or something happened to my characters and not yours. Either way, like I said in the PM, color me jealous.