Custom Archetype as a choice

[eldriyth]

Custom Archetype would allow you to choose any primary set that already exists and any secondary that already exists and combine them. You could make all kinds of crazy ATs that are not possible right now. This would probably be imbalanced, but it would also open up huge holes in your character that would be hard to fill up depending on your choices. Example: If you decided to go with Blaster Fire/Defender Fire, you would have a bunch of attacks, but absolutely no defense or real way to control enemies.

 

Custom would appear in the AT profile so players who see this can ask questions about your build and see if you fit (group/raid situations)

[Redlynne]

NO.

[justicebeliever]

Big No unless it can be made to balance

[PaxArcana]

I very rarely do this, but ...

 

/JRanger

 

City Of Heroes/Villains just is not set up to allow anything like that.  It's not balanced for it, and IMO it cannot be balanced for it.

 

Sorry, man.  But your hopes must inevitably be dashed, I'm afraid.

[eldriyth]

There are brutes already crushing 4/8 solo. Why would this really matter and get negatives responses? Give me an example of how this system would be more unbalanced than a brute? You guys keep saying balance, balance, balance.. Explain to me something that would be out of this world insanely OP.

[justicebeliever]

If brutes are unbalanced (I don’t play one, so don’t know), then that should be fixed.  Adding more broken things isn’t the solution.

[eldriyth]

If brutes are unbalanced (I don’t play one, so don’t know), then that should be fixed.  Adding more broken things isn’t the solution.

 

Umm yeah.. They are pretty crazy. You still didn't explain why it would be a no though. Give me some examples?

[PaxArcana]

There are brutes already crushing 4/8 solo.

Against very specific enemy groups, yes.

 

Against any and every enemy group in the entire game ... not so much.

 

Explain to me something that would be out of this world insanely OP.

 

It's not just insanely OP stuff that would break this.  It's also insanely UP stuff.  Besides, "X is already overpowered, why can't I have something even MORE overpowered" is not a compelling argument.

 

But, just for the sake of argument:

 

Blaster ranged attack set, Brute or Scrapper version defense set, Brute inherent.  You think Brutes are bad ion melee, just wait until they get all the delicious AoE and Ranged (and high damage multiplier) of Blaster primaries.

[eldriyth]

I very rarely do this, but ...

 

/JRanger

 

City Of Heroes/Villains just is not set up to allow anything like that.  It's not balanced for it, and IMO it cannot be balanced for it.

 

Sorry, man.  But your hopes must inevitably be dashed, I'm afraid.

 

 

Give me some examples of why you would say no. /JRanger is not a good response, nor is it productive.

[PaxArcana]

See above.

 

Also, though my mouth waters at the thought ... Masterminds, with Controller primaries as their secondary.  Lock-and-burn with zero direct risk ... just, no.  No.  NO.

[eldriyth]

There are brutes already crushing 4/8 solo.

Against very specific enemy groups, yes.

 

Against any and every enemy group in the entire game ... not so much.

 

Explain to me something that would be out of this world insanely OP.

 

It's not just insanely OP stuff that would break this.  It's also insanely UP stuff.  Besides, "X is already overpowered, why can't I have something even MORE overpowered" is not a compelling argument.

 

But, just for the sake of argument:

 

Blaster ranged attack set, Brute or Scrapper version defense set, Brute inherent.  You think Brutes are bad ion melee, just wait until they get all the delicious AoE and Ranged (and high damage multiplier) of Blaster primaries.

 

 

And be craving endurance like a madman even more? I have a spine/fire with a very high veteran and the damn thing even with incarnates is endurance starved.

[eldriyth]

See above.

 

Also, though my mouth waters at the thought ... Masterminds, with Controller primaries as their secondary.  Lock-and-burn with zero direct risk ... just, no.  No.  NO.

 

That actually sounds fun as hell if you can manage the endurance. Remember, things aren't free.

[eldriyth]

NO.

 

Still no explanation of why you feel this way. You do understand that everything in CoX requires some kind of endurance use right? Nothing is free, builds are not infinite. I don't personally think their would be an OP build at all, because everything has a weakness. I am not a noob either, I have a lot of 50s with incarnates. I mean is there something out there that would just be dreadful!? I need to know!

[jack_nomind]

No.

 

I think the reasons why are intuitively obvious to many of the previous responders.  But off the top of my head, strongest to weakest:

 

• There's no version of this that doesn't result in massive developmental headaches whenever a new set is created.  Or just all the time, really.
  
• There's no version of this that doesn't result in people making unplayable characters and getting frustrated about it.
  
• There's no version of this that doesn't destroy power category scaling systems.  As one example, right now Masterminds have low scaling for support and damage powers to balance their pets.  A pets/assault character with Mastermind scaling would probably be terrible.  A pets/assault character with different scaling would break something else.  Letting players "choose their own" scaling (like a hypothetical default "5/10-5/10-5/10-5/10" damage/support/control/tanker scaling that can re-arrange those points) just purely replaces all existing ATs.
  
• This erodes the prospects of EATs, which is something I'd like to see us as a community start designing.

[PaxArcana]

See above.

 

Also, though my mouth waters at the thought ... Masterminds, with Controller primaries as their secondary.  Lock-and-burn with zero direct risk ... just, no.  No.  NO.

 

That actually sounds fun as hell if you can manage the endurance. Remember, things aren't free.

Dude, once the pets are out and improved, they cost 0 endurance.

 

Enter mission door, drop pets, improve pets, faceroll mission.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Seriously.  That would be broken beyond belief.

 

...

 

And, as I said, there's also the underpowered side of things.  Someone who mistakenly takes a Defender primary and, I don't know, a Scrapper secondary.  Sure, sure, you're a buffbot that can't be stopped.

 

And you'll be using Brawl as your only attack straight through to 50 ...

[eldriyth]

No.

 

I think the reasons why are intuitively obvious to many of the previous responders.  But off the top of my head, strongest to weakest:

 

• There's no version of this that doesn't result in massive developmental headaches whenever a new set is created.  Or just all the time, really.
  
• There's no version of this that doesn't result in people making unplayable characters and getting frustrated about it.
  
• There's no version of this that doesn't destroy power category scaling systems.  As one example, right now Masterminds have low scaling for support and damage powers to balance their pets.  A pets/assault character with Mastermind scaling would probably be terrible.  A pets/assault character with different scaling would break something else.  Letting players "choose their own" scaling (like a hypothetical default "5/10-5/10-5/10-5/10" damage/support/control/tanker scaling that can re-arrange those points) just purely replaces all existing ATs.
  
• This erodes the prospects of EATs, which is something I'd like to see us as a community start designing.

 

 

Pet/Assault would heavily rely on IOs for defense. They would only get 35% resist all, 10% defense (no psion), 15% aoe defense..  Against a 4/8 even with A3 that is going to get crushed pretty hard.  Now, you add the extra blast power (which costs endurance) and you might do decently but you would be starved a lot and would be very squishy. Your point has been debunked and the AT I just explained wouldn't be that bad. Next.

[jack_nomind]

Pet/Assault would heavily rely on IOs for defense. They would only get 35% resist all, 10% defense (no psion), 15% aoe defense..  Against a 4/8 even with A3 that is going to get crushed pretty hard.  Now, you add the extra blast power (which costs endurance) and you might do decently but you would be starved a lot and would be very squishy. Your point has been debunked and the AT I just explained wouldn't be that bad. Next.

 

You're skimming again, eldriyth.  Slow down and be more thorough.

[eldriyth]

See above.

 

Also, though my mouth waters at the thought ... Masterminds, with Controller primaries as their secondary.  Lock-and-burn with zero direct risk ... just, no.  No.  NO.

 

That actually sounds fun as hell if you can manage the endurance. Remember, things aren't free.

Dude, once the pets are out and improved, they cost 0 endurance.

 

Enter mission door, drop pets, improve pets, faceroll mission.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Seriously.  That would be broken beyond belief.

 

...

 

And, as I said, there's also the underpowered side of things.  Someone who mistakenly takes a Defender primary and, I don't know, a Scrapper secondary.  Sure, sure, you're a buffbot that can't be stopped.

 

And you'll be using Brawl as your only attack straight through to 50 ...

 

There are plenty of attacks that combo could choose from pool, epic, and p2w vendor.

[Steampunkette]

Custom Archetype as a choice... not a -bad- idea on it's face... Here's how I would suggest balancing it!

 

Only attack powers as a Primary. Blasts, Melee, Assault, all options.

All other powersets as Secondary. Defense, Control, Support, Pets... But the Defense Sets are as per Sentinel rather than Brute, for example.

 

All Archetype values set to .75. Damage for Ranged and Melee, Pet Health, Control Magnitudes, Etc.

 

Their Inherent grants you four end-costless toggles. One increases Melee and Ranged damage by 20%, One increases Defensive and Control effectiveness by 20%, another increases Pets and Support by 20% and the fourth toggle increases all options by 10%.

 

You've now got a class that hits like a Corruptor without Scourge for Melee and Ranged attacks, has lower defensive functions than a Scrapper, -needs- to stack 2 control effects to lock down Lts, and heals/buffs/debuffs less effectively than a Corruptor.

 

But. When they pop on their damage toggle they hit like a Dominator. Their heals pop up toward Corruptor when they've got the support toggle on, and their controls and defenses can get up toward locking down or protecting themselves like Scrappers and Controllers.

 

And when they do "Everything Mode" they hit like Tankers, take damage like Stalkers, still need 2 powers to really Control anything and offer support like a Corruptor.

 

That's about as "Balanced" as the class could get. It would be able to cover any role, or assist in covering any role, but wouldn't actually be good at any of them.

 

What it -would- do is allow the Staff to test different AT concepts for potential use in the future. So if only for that purpose I suggest having it on the Test Server locked behind an imaginary "Pay Wall/Expansion Tag" and accessible only by the Developers.

[eldriyth]

Pet/Assault would heavily rely on IOs for defense. They would only get 35% resist all, 10% defense (no psion), 15% aoe defense..  Against a 4/8 even with A3 that is going to get crushed pretty hard.  Now, you add the extra blast power (which costs endurance) and you might do decently but you would be starved a lot and would be very squishy. Your point has been debunked and the AT I just explained wouldn't be that bad. Next.

 

You're skimming again, eldriyth.  Slow down and be more thorough.

 

 

So you're basically saying there would be horrid choices and people would complain about them? I see your point. They would need to include a disclaimer explaining some combos might be rough or not great at all when using custom.

[eldriyth]

Custom Archetype as a choice... not a -bad- idea on it's face... Here's how I would suggest balancing it!

 

Only attack powers as a Primary. Blasts, Melee, Assault, all options.

All other powersets as Secondary. Defense, Control, Support, Pets... But the Defense Sets are as per Sentinel rather than Brute, for example.

 

All Archetype values set to .75. Damage for Ranged and Melee, Pet Health, Control Magnitudes, Etc.

 

Their Inherent grants you four end-costless toggles. One increases Melee and Ranged damage by 20%, One increases Defensive and Control effectiveness by 20%, another increases Pets and Support by 20% and the fourth toggle increases all options by 10%.

 

You've now got a class that hits like a Corruptor without Scourge for Melee and Ranged attacks, has lower defensive functions than a Scrapper, -needs- to stack 2 control effects to lock down Lts, and heals/buffs/debuffs less effectively than a Corruptor.

 

But. When they pop on their damage toggle they hit like a Dominator. Their heals pop up toward Corruptor when they've got the support toggle on, and their controls and defenses can get up toward locking down or protecting themselves like Scrappers and Controllers.

 

And when they do "Everything Mode" they hit like Tankers, take damage like Stalkers, still need 2 powers to really Control anything and offer support like a Corruptor.

 

That's about as "Balanced" as the class could get. It would be able to cover any role, or assist in covering any role, but wouldn't actually be good at any of them.

 

What it -would- do is allow the Staff to test different AT concepts for potential use in the future. So if only for that purpose I suggest having it on the Test Server locked behind an imaginary "Pay Wall/Expansion Tag" and accessible only by the Developers.

 

 

Good ideas all around. I am not against balancing this idea. I think it would open up a lot of fun combos people can't do right now.

[PaxArcana]

And, as I said, there's also the underpowered side of things.  Someone who mistakenly takes a Defender primary and, I don't know, a Scrapper secondary.  Sure, sure, you're a buffbot that can't be stopped.

 

And you'll be using Brawl as your only attack straight through to 50 ...

There are plenty of attacks that combo could choose from pool, epic, and p2w vendor.

 

Eldryth, I'm going to guess you haven't played the game much, yet ...?

 

You don't get APP or EPP attacks until you're 40th level.  The stuff you buy from the P2W was only, ever, intended to help out at lower levels.  You won't be able to slot them.  That alone will render them functionally obsolete by the time you're 20, if not (much) sooner.

 

And Pool power attacks?  They can be slotted, sure, but their base values are laughable.

 

They would need to include a disclaimer explaining some combos might be rough or not great at all when using custom.

 

Which would violate the foundational principle of City Of Heroes:  Every archetype, every powerset combination, should be able to solo at a reasonable speed.  Some are better at it than others, yes.  But none of them are utter crap.

 

Your idea would not adhere to that.

[justicebeliever]

Which would violate the foundational principle of City Of Heroes:  Every archetype, every powerset combination, should be able to solo at a reasonable speed.  Some are better at it than others, yes.  But none of them are utter crap.

 

Your idea would not adhere to that.

 

QFT

[eldriyth]

And, as I said, there's also the underpowered side of things.  Someone who mistakenly takes a Defender primary and, I don't know, a Scrapper secondary.  Sure, sure, you're a buffbot that can't be stopped.

 

And you'll be using Brawl as your only attack straight through to 50 ...

There are plenty of attacks that combo could choose from pool, epic, and p2w vendor.

 

Eldryth, I'm going to guess you haven't played the game much, yet ...?

 

You don't get APP or EPP attacks until you're 40th level.  The stuff you buy from the P2W was only, ever, intended to help out at lower levels.  You won't be able to slot them.  That alone will render them functionally obsolete by the time you're 20, if not (much) sooner.

 

And Pool power attacks?  They can be slotted, sure, but their base values are laughable.

 

They would need to include a disclaimer explaining some combos might be rough or not great at all when using custom.

 

Which would violate the foundational principle of City Of Heroes:  Every archetype, every powerset combination, should be able to solo at a reasonable speed.  Some are better at it than others, yes.  But none of them are utter crap.

 

Your idea would not adhere to that.

 

I have multiple 50s with incarnate A3+. You said they would use brawl all the way up. I was just pointing out there are other options for offense for ATs who don't get attacks.

[SwitchFade]

Custom Archetype would allow you to choose any primary set that already exists and any secondary that already exists and combine them. You could make all kinds of crazy ATs that are not possible right now. This would probably be imbalanced, but it would also open up huge holes in your character that would be hard to fill up depending on your choices. Example: If you decided to go with Blaster Fire/Defender Fire, you would have a bunch of attacks, but absolutely no defense or real way to control enemies.

 

Custom would appear in the AT profile so players who see this can ask questions about your build and see if you fit (group/raid situations)

 

I must, in all good conscience, emphatically vote no 8 days a week and three times on Sunday. I am whole heatedly against this change.

 

One game tried to do this, and it was helmed by a person named Jack E. And it was not just bad, it was terrible.

 

It was terribad.