World of Confusion - 1 slot wonder

[Frosticus]

This is why you shouldn't always listen to conventional wisdom.

 

This is  a quick demo of World of Confusion from the Psi App

It is just the base slot with Contagious Confusion proc. 

 

It's not quite seeds of confusion, but if this doesn't make you rethink the power then I don't know what will. 

 

 

[MoonSheep]

it’s a banger with the contagious conf proc in, though overall it does seem to be an odd mastery set for a dominator in my view. mostly redundant given permadoms have mez protection and already a good bag of controls. it competes with some very strong masteries

 

i use the proc in my ST confuse on my mind/fire dom, procs quite regularly for some added chaos, one of the best procs out there for fun

[Mezmera]

A lot of control sets have a confuse power already available and if they do I'm taking it and slotting the full set of Contagious for that 5% ranged defense at the 6th bonus.  There's far better Epic pools for dommies that allow you to do far more and like @MoonSheep says that epic pool is a bit redundant and lacking in comparison to other pools like Ice, Soul etc.  

[Frosticus]

In truth I'm not really looking to promote the merits of Psi App. If you understand the powers the right choice for the build goals will be clearer.

 

It is hard to make informed choices with misinformation. So this topic is about WoC, which has almost universally been poo poo'd.

A lot of players are dug in to what they know. The players that are interested in knowing a little bit more might find it of use.

[BitCook]

Thanks for the info!  I always have some strange builds and you never know what you want in a character.  Like someone with multiple auras and fold space for fun 🙂

Great stuff as always!

[Frosticus]

 

Had an interesting discussion on discord. Obviously not a scientific test, but WoC+psy nado + my attacks kept pace with the all-mighty Sleet+icestorm+my attacks

*exact same build, just swapped in out the App's.

 

There are many scenarios where sleet would pull way ahead, lets not pretend otherwise. But you also walk a tightrope the entire time with paper tissue s/l defense on a low hp toon. Risk/reward I suppose.

Again this is not an endorsement of the Psi App over others, just sharing information

 

[Nemu]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:13 AM, Frosticus said:

So this topic is about WoC, which has almost universally been poo poo'd.

@Frosticus people seem to listen to you. Do Whirlwind next. It's time to bring SPIN awareness to the masses.

[tidge]

On 8/8/2023 at 3:43 PM, Mezmera said:

A lot of control sets have a confuse power already available and if they do I'm taking it and slotting the full set of Contagious for that 5% ranged defense at the 6th bonus.  There's far better Epic pools for dommies that allow you to do far more and like @MoonSheep says that epic pool is a bit redundant and lacking in comparison to other pools like Ice, Soul etc.  

 

On 8/8/2023 at 8:09 AM, MoonSheep said:

i use the proc in my ST confuse on my mind/fire dom, procs quite regularly for some added chaos, one of the best procs out there for fun

 

Single-target Confuse powers is IMHO really where the %Contagious Confusion shines(*1); those powers are also a more natural place to slot the entire set for the tasty bonuses. The set bonuses from Coercive Persuasion are tailor-made for Dominators. The Epic World of Confusion has a bohunkus Endurance cost, with a relatively small radius. I won't argue that the %Confuse from the %proc increases the utility of WoC, but it is IMO entirely due to the base magnitude of the %proc compared to the inherent magnitude/duration of WoC.

 

I completely understand the appeal of trying to sell WoC as a no-extra slotting wonder, but for my build-crafting (and using the Psionic Mastery Epic pool on a Dominator)  there will always be a better choice... not just from the other powers in the Epic pool (for Dominators) but from non-Epic pool powers that can serve as Global +Recharge mule powers (again, Dominators). Indomitable Will and Mind Over Body can both be one-slot wonders, Link Minds deserves at least two slots (more if chasing set bonuses).

 

(*1) The %proc rate from six pieces of Coercive Persuasion, even with slotted recharge, gives new life to the single-target confuse in large-spawn, non-AV fights. The other (Confuse/Accuracy/Recharge) enhancement effects of the set simply make the single-target Confuses better for hard targets, or enemies which will buff/heal the player. I really wish that there was an equivalent Very Rare enhancement set (with a %Contagious piece) for Fear powers, as the single-target Fears lose a LOT of utility as spawn sizes increase and towards high-levels.

[Gulbasaur]

I'm going to agree with Tidge (as I frequently do, we seem to have very similar favourite playstyles)... while I really wanted it to be good, it just ain't.

 

Part of the reason (in addition to what Tidge says) is that the proc rate of the IO and the proc rate of World of Confusion are actually out of sync, so not every application of WoC actually even has a chance to proc the IO effect (unless this has been changed).

[Frosticus]

8 hours ago, tidge said:

The Epic World of Confusion has a bohunkus Endurance cost

You sure about that?

On 8/8/2023 at 10:13 PM, Frosticus said:

A lot of players are dug in to what they know

 

[Frosticus]

10 hours ago, Nemu said:

@Frosticus people seem to listen to you. Do Whirlwind next. It's time to bring SPIN awareness to the masses.

Haha I wish it were so! People seem insistent on telling me what I'm seeing in game isn't happening.

 

I'm looking at whirlwind as part of my powerpool man build. It is going to upset the applecart.

[tidge]

10 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

You sure about that?

 

 City of data has a base of 0.163 End/sec, which is almost three times higher than something like Combat Jumping's 0.065 end/sec.

[Onlyasandwich]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 City of data has a base of 0.163 End/sec, which is almost three times higher than something

CJ is literally the lowest end use toggle in the game by an order of magnitude. I wouldn't call that a fair comparison. .163 is significantly lower than most every other toggle that isn't just straight up end positive.

[Wimbochismo]

Some of this has been mentioned, but let's break it all down to see what we get.

 

It has the 0.163 end cost, not terrible - compared to say Hover at 0.2 and Weave at 0.33. Requires a to-hit check to land, so needs accuracy. An 8ft radius - melee range and attacks are 7ft so it's very tight and means you need to be in melee. A 100% chance for a 1.5 sec mag 2 confuse, 100% for a 1 sec mag 1 confuse, and 6.33 psi dmg. The activate period is 4 secs.

 

If you want to use it for the confuse - to start out the duration doesn't equal the application chance. It needs hefty +confuse for it to be worth it. As a Dominator and from the video you posted, I believe Dominate extends duration but it still doesn't equal the application.

 

If you want to use it for the dmg, as in slot it full dmg set. It's a nice little bonus that goes well with a melee defense build.

 

All offensive toggles are normalized for procs to go off every 10 seconds. There's a formula for radius and proc chance, the tighter radius is more desirable for higher proc chances. My personal preference is to pick other powers for more on demand upfront damage. Instead of something more unpredictable. It also needs accuracy and maybe still some end red so 4-5 procs total.

 

You can see some of this functionality in the video posted. As you run past mobs in the beginning, the power doesn't hit - even when you're right on top of them. This is due to slow application. Once they're bunched, you can see how tight the radius is because the mobs slightly further back aren't getting hit. Can't be 100%, but even when it's been applied, it still looks like they turn and hit you. It took half your hp to set up and still took steady dmg for the duration (even though it would be paired with other powers).

 

Again, personal preference but I usually find it difficult to fit in a build with better choices. I'd rather pick up something like Fireball for more direct and proccable dmg for instance. If I paired it with anything, it would be most desirable on a Dominator for Dominate. Probably Fold Space to clump mobs. Great on Gravity for Wormhole to clump and provide additional survivability.

 

Although I still kinda wanna try something like a Hot Feet, Choking Cloud, World of Confusion procced Controller to see what happens...

[tidge]

33 minutes ago, Wimbochismo said:

Although I still kinda wanna try something like a Hot Feet, Choking Cloud, World of Confusion procced Controller to see what happens...

 

The Fire/Psi/Psi Dominator I run has Hot Feet, I tried WoC with it. I felt very meh about the combo. MMV.

 

As @Wimbochismo mentioned earlier in the unquoted portion of the post, these sorts of toggles demanded melee range, which didn't really jive (for me) with the rest of what that Dominator was doing offensively. That character was a perma-dom, and I play it with a LOT of button mashing on offense, which I hope brings some understanding of my own sensitivity to Endurance budgets. Even with the blue-bar refill from Domination, I'm often running my Doms on the knife's edge of spending all the Endurance before the refill (because attacks are recharging faster).

[Frosticus]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

 City of data has a base of 0.163 End/sec, which is almost three times higher than something like Combat Jumping's 0.065 end/sec.

Something like the lowest end toggle in the game? Is that the bar it has to jump over?

 

It's among the cheapest enemy affecting auras in the game (excluding the blaster systains). You said you've used it right?

 

I think this is an interesting discussion. Are you being disingenuous? 

 

6 hours ago, Wimbochismo said:

  It took half your hp to set up and still took steady dmg for the duration (even though it would be paired with other powers).

I think your perspective is off personally. Run into a spawn with just hot feet, entangling aura, choking cloud, blazing aura, chilling embrace, mudpots, etc  and see how it goes.

 

Where do you set the goalposts for an aura power?

 

Is the expectation that the afraid in hot feet prevents all damage? Or that the hold in entagling aura never lets +3s attack? Cause that seems to be what you expect from WoC.

 

6 hours ago, Wimbochismo said:

Again, personal preference but I usually find it difficult to fit in a build with better choices. I'd rather pick up something like Fireball for more direct and proccable dmg for instance. 

Sure but Psi App doesn't get fireball. Psy nado is ok though, bigger aoe, additional control, ffb proc, painful cast time tho. But ya fireball would be nice. 60 second rain of fire is even nicer.

 

I rolled with fire App for some time. Loved it. I needed Psi for link mind's. It might not seem like much but it is important when stoney tanks lvl 54 AVs (lots if vids), I've run the numbers to death and it is enough to win some encounters that I couldn't otherwise. That was the whole purpose of this build: no insp/temps/lore AV killer,which it has succeeded at.

 

Additionally, it is a res based dom, so fireshield is wasted potential as it puts your fire res too high in conjuction w/ purple IO bonuses. So melee hybrid or rune put you way over cap and creates an imbalanced build. But yes, fireball in isolation, is good.

[Frosticus]

Here's without the proc, just 1 +5 confuse + resilient alpha = 95% confuse enhancement

Looks pretty similar to the Contagious proc performance. So you can stuff your proc in a single target confuse until your heart's content if you feel like it is better.

 

I can tell you the only real difference is that w/ proc it can occasionally confuse bosses. But leaving them uncontrolled and hoping for a confuse proc is pretty risky.

 

End of vid is with no WoC on, just to demonstrate the additional layer of protection that 1 slotted WoC gives to fill in potential control voids (cims in particular don't get knocked by earthquake which is typically pretty important to earth). 

 

I'd strongly encourage melee doms to give it a whirl. It improved the stability of my build a lot in the ice minstrel TF I uploaded earlier. You might be surprised if you try it. I was.

 

 

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I think this is an interesting discussion. Are you being disingenuous?

 

If the argument being put forward is that a generally dissatisfying power pick (World of Confusion) can do something, I agree. I don't think it is disingenuous to point out that there are any number of power picks (many of which don't even need to be toggled on, or require extra slots  to provide benefit to a build) that will, in the context of most builds(*1) that provide more value. My opinion: I think it is slightly more disingenuous to claim WoC as a "one-slot wonder" while simultaneously adding Very Rare set bonuses (such as global Accuracy, presumably in other powers) and incarnate effects into the toolbox of trick to make it viable.

 

(*1) Specific to Dominators: The LotG +Global Recharge pieces cry out to be added, for the purposes of perma-domination. By the level at which a Dominator could even pick World of Confusion, that is likely to be the point in the build at which a pool (perhaps Concealment, but there are many options) that offers opportunities to mule the LotG pieces. Opinions can vary, but I think picking any other power from The Psionic Mastery Epic pool as a second or third choice (no matter what the first choice was) is likely to be better for a Dominator, because of the ability to slot a Global Enhancement piece for Resistance or Defense or Recharge.

 

Strictly going off my experiences with Dominators, which I often play as being in the middle of melee combat, I did not find WoC to be useful in most combat, for a variety of reasons primarily because the Dominators need to be using their AoE Immobilize/Holds for both Offense and Defense... such that allowing enemy mobiles the time to move around in an effort to group them into the tight radius (because very few spawns are tightly grouped) of WoC is highly dangerous. This is why @Wimbochismo called out powers like Fold Space as being a potential partner for a player that really wants to leverage WoC (in addition to other toggle auras). Again, my personal experience: Whatever "layering defense" an 8-foot radius of WoC provides, it simply wasn't providing any noticeable benefit for most spawns. enemies which spawn/buff get targeted for mezz or damage rather than hope RNG and an aura have them eventually buff me.

 

It's really never been a secret that World of Confusion can take a Very Rare mezz proc to stack Confusion to improve that power. I'm pretty sure a similar "one-slot wonder" argument could be made for many other powers that for some reason players don't want to invest other slots... for example only investing a single slot of Soulbound Allegiance %Build Up in Fire Imps.

[Wimbochismo]

9 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Where do you set the goalposts for an aura power?

 

Ideally I would want the toggle to do one or two things, but to do them well. I probably have a bias and am expecting a lot from WoC. If I leveraged that Hot Feet/Choking Cloud Controller I mentioned, I could even go with ranged defense Hover. Could bunch mobs that way. With being able to activate Hot Feet on the ground before flying, but mainly the larger radius's allow for it.

 

I think that WoC is really a jack of all trades, master of none power. It has lots going for it, but it isn't so amazing at any of them that it stands out. Unless you leverage other powers or enhancements to get it there. It's more of a nice little addition to a build, not really a linchpin power. As you show us, it can definitely provide value, depending on your build and what your goals may be.

[Frosticus]

 

4 hours ago, Wimbochismo said:

 

Ideally I would want the toggle to do one or two things, but to do them well. I probably have a bias and am expecting a lot from WoC. If I leveraged that Hot Feet/Choking Cloud Controller I mentioned, I could even go with ranged defense Hover. Could bunch mobs that way. With being able to activate Hot Feet on the ground before flying, but mainly the larger radius's allow for it.

 

I think that WoC is really a jack of all trades, master of none power. It has lots going for it, but it isn't so amazing at any of them that it stands out. Unless you leverage other powers or enhancements to get it there. It's more of a nice little addition to a build, not really a linchpin power. As you show us, it can definitely provide value, depending on your build and what your goals may be.

 

See I don't think any single enemy affecting aura is particularly great at any one or two things.

The exception being perhaps hurricane, which is extremely high tohit debuff and is very effective at debuffing range. It's got some serious drawbacks, but where it excels it is the best.

Even Arctic Air, which is among the most powerful enemy affecting auras isn't particularly great at any of the things it does. The -rech isn't great as a stand alone, the confuse (has been improved), but still isn't total spawn control, even the slow ticks infrequently enough that most mobs can walk right up to you and take a swing before it kicks in.

 

I don't think any App power is, or should be, a lynchpin power. I don't think they are designed with that intent. A few bugged/poorly balanced App powers might distort that (like dominator sleet), but those exception seem to prove the rule.

 

I've demonstrated it as pretty effective in isolation. It also kept pace with sleet as a package. My intent with this post was to dispel the misinformation about WoC that I've seen, and is still being posted in this very thread. People don't have to like it, or use it, but hopefully we'll see a little less misinformation.

 

 

 

 

[Onlyasandwich]

23 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

People don't have to like it, or use it, but hopefully we'll see a little less misinformation.

I think this is pretty fair!

 

Psy app may not be optimal for builds focused primarily on damage, given the presence of Fire and Ice (more aoes, the excellence of sleet). However, if you're hitting Psy for the extra defense, along with additional lotg mules, World of Confusion is a viable consideration.

 

WoC definitely has a reputation for being poopoo, and as @Frosticus has shown, it is actually pretty useful. I wouldn't be focusing my build around it, but if I am already choosing the pool for thematic or functional reasons, it provides:

• An excellent mule for Ranged defense and Recharge if your primary lacks a confuse. Coercive Persuasion is excellent even outside the proc.
• Additional no-animation needed melee mitigation for low endurance cost (hey, Dom's actually like melee!)
• A bit of extra damage, with the potential for proccy nonsense as well if you feel like it, given the abundance of melee aoe procs. Not super ideal, but not so bad either.
• A pretty visual - whee.

 

Sure using it as a "one slot wonder" will probably be relying on hefty global Accuracy or other shenanigans. Plenty of other powers rely on global bonuses in end-game builds to put the pieces together. Perma-dom, anyone? For a proc focused build, you are already pursuing these strategies to maximize proc potential.

 

 

[Frosticus]

@tidge

I asked if you were being disingenuous because you claimed WoC had a 

On 8/11/2023 at 5:16 AM, tidge said:

bohunkus Endurance cost

When I corrected that assertion you doubled down by saying it is

22 hours ago, tidge said:

almost three times higher than something like Combat Jumping

No one would make that argument in good faith

 

And now you are tripling down with

8 hours ago, tidge said:

for example only investing a single slot of Soulbound Allegiance %Build Up in Fire Imps.

 

You either aren't understanding what is being stated in the OP, or you are intentionally giving bad information.

The easy out would have been to just say you misremembered the endurance cost because it used to be listed per tick rather than per second. It ticks once every 4 seconds.

If you have used the power like you said you would definitely have noticed it costs as close to zero end as we get.

 

The attached images are what WoC and 3% defense cost me respectively.

[Frosticus]

54 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

I wouldn't be focusing my build around it, but if I am already choosing the pool for thematic or functional reasons

I wouldn't either. And didn't. It would be pretty lopsided to centre a build around a 1 slot power. 

 

I was in the exact scenario that others have posted in this very thread pretending that a lotg mule (veng) was more beneficial.

Beneficial to who? I already have perma hasten.

 

I took it on a whim after failing the multi ambush stage of the Ice Mistral SF a couple times with no viable path forward (no insp/temps run). I literally hovered over picking quicksand or WoC (I love quicksand, but it is so slow to cast). I was immediately skipping WoC on my dom because of it's reputation despite saying this about it in my poison guide from 2020

"Psychic is my favorite. It gives you another heavy hitter (proc'd dominate), A very useful shield and a confuse aura that works really well with venomous gas to provide meaningful mitigation and improve spawn clearing."

 

It went much smoother with just that change. I didn't think much of it until someone asked me if it was doing anything in the vid I posted.

 

I was actually shocked when I started testing it in isolation. Objectively it isn't a poo poo power at all, it is actually a really good power if your playstyle/build can support it*

*If you can't safely engage in melee range against mobs then that won't work.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Frosticus

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

You either aren't understanding what is being stated in the OP, or you are intentionally giving bad information.

 

 

I'm happy you like World of Confusion; but you seem to be missing the point of Endurance cost of a toggle that must be toggled on, versus a mule power that doesn't have to be toggled on. I evangelize for Unrelenting, but it isn't an easy sell, no matter how much performance I get out of it.

 

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I was in the exact scenario that others have posted in this very thread pretending that a lotg mule (veng) was more beneficial.

Beneficial to who? I already have perma hasten.

 

I had some Doms that need Hasten (and/or FF: %+Recharge) to hit perma-Domination, life is much easier on builds that can hit perm-Dom without Hasten (and/or FF: %+Recharge). Unless the build already has five LotG +Global Recharge, there is room for at least one more (by skipping WoC). I brought up Combat Jumping specifically because of it's role as a toggle that provides (Defensive) benefits and a low Endurance cost such that even if it is "just" a mule it could still be toggled on to improve the defensive profile of the character.

[Frosticus]

17 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I'm happy you like World of Confusion; but you seem to be missing the point of Endurance cost of a toggle that must be toggled on, versus a mule power that doesn't have to be toggled on. I evangelize for Unrelenting, but it isn't an easy sell, no matter how much performance I get out of it.

 

No one thinks unrelenting as a power is bad. They think the powers needed to unlock it are rarely desirable or efficient use of time and they think the final uptime of Unrelenting could be more favorable. It also really begs for multiple slots.

 

I have a gimmick power pool dom build that while surprisingly effective, it is entirely a gimmick that leverages the domination boosted fears of the presence pool.

 

Back to endurance, not only is WoC one of the cheapest in the game, a single confused enemy attacking a foe will make your build end positive as it is cheaper damage than any assault attack. Let alone multiple enemies helping kill off the fodder like it does in every video I've put up. If your target selection causes wasted endurance that is on you, not WoC.

 

17 hours ago, tidge said:

I had some Doms that need Hasten (and/or FF: %+Recharge) to hit perma-Domination, life is much easier on builds that can hit perm-Dom without Hasten (and/or FF: %+Recharge). Unless the build already has five LotG +Global Recharge, there is room for at least one more (by skipping WoC). 

 

Hasten is to this day the strongest pool power in the game. Not leveraging it is deliberately downgrading one's build. You are gimping your build in other ways to reach that amount of global recharge whether you believe it or not. It would be far more productive to leverage hasten and utilize procs, or shore up defenses/resistances, plus have overall higher global rech. But it depends on the difficulty of content that you solo, or the strength of your team as to whether things like that matter.

 

You talk a lot about other power choices providing more benefit than WoC, it is ironic that you are promoting a build that skips hasten.

 

Additional recharge benefits taper off quickly and an additional 7.5% rech will provide no noticeable improvement if you already have perma key powers and a complete attack chain. It is also a drop in the bucket against -rech debuffs, you either shut them down on a dom, or use much more powerful ways of countering them.

 

Here I hard counter Lilitu's -rech powers by having her target something else (one of several strategies that a dom could use). I'd lose perma dom after the first cycle if I just piled on an additional lotg, or went for a hasten-free perma dom.

 

17 hours ago, tidge said:

I brought up Combat Jumping specifically because of it's role as a toggle that provides (Defensive) benefits and a low Endurance cost such that even if it is "just" a mule it could still be toggled on to improve the defensive profile of the character.

OK? I have combat jumping already. I've never seen someone take combat jumping and not run it. It is basically free and provides movement benefits that make it prudent to run all the time.

 

Anyone that has a similar playstyle to me (I've uploaded a decent amount of x8 content) would likely see benefits to trying WoC both offensively and defensively. It is well worth a try. Lots of players don't play their doms up close, that's ok too. 

Anyway, it is clear we play the game differently. That's ok. My hope is that players were able to gain some insight from this thread and dispel misinformation.