Fixing consume and dark consumption, and related issues.

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

That 15 seconds of +Recovery effectively delays the necessity of using the power by 15 seconds.  Until that stacking Recovery buff expires (meaning 5% base per critter, unenhanced for EndMod), your blue bar should remain pegged at 100%. 

 

I get the impression you haven't run the numbers on this. The Recovery buff on Consume adds up to 1.25 endurance per target hit. If you max the endmod enhancement and hit the maximum of 10 targets with Consume, that's a little less than 25 total endurance. Over 15 seconds. That's the same as a small blue inspiration, except it takes a quarter of a minute for you to get the endurance instead of getting it all at once.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

I get the impression you haven't run the numbers on this. The Recovery buff on Consume adds up to 1.25 endurance per target hit. If you max the endmod enhancement and hit the maximum of 10 targets with Consume, that's a little less than 25 total endurance. Over 15 seconds. That's the same as a small blue inspiration, except it takes a quarter of a minute for you to get the endurance instead of getting it all at once.

5% Recovery buff translates to 0.09 END/second. Over 15 seconds, that is 1.35 END. With 10 targets affected, that is 13.5 END. Maxing it out with EndMod enhancements with a 42.4% boost each gets you up to 10.91% Recover buff which has a 118.16% effectiveness over base, which is 0.19 END/second. Which is 2.85 END gained after 15 seconds from a single target, and 28.5 END if 10 targets were affected. At the same time, triggering the power (with all those End Mod enhancements) grants you 43.63 END after the cast time, up from the 20 END base. (Net gain of 72.13 END after everything has finished.)

 

(Edit: That net gain is actually 71.61 END if you deduct the 0.52 END it cost to trigger the power.)

Edited September 18, 2023 by Rudra

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

5% Recovery buff translates to 0.09 END/second. Over 15 seconds, that is 1.35 END. With 10 targets affected, that is 13.5 END. Maxing it out with EndMod enhancements with a 42.4% boost each gets you up to 10.91% Recover buff which has a 118.16% effectiveness over base, which is 0.19 END/second. Which is 2.85 END gained after 15 seconds from a single target, and 28.5 END if 10 targets were affected. At the same time, triggering the power (with all those End Mod enhancements) grants you 43.63 END after the cast time, up from the 20 END base. (Net gain of 72.13 END after everything has finished.)

 

1.666... * .05 = .08333..., not .9

 

.8333... * 15 = 1.25

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

5% Recovery buff translates to 0.09 END/second. Over 15 seconds, that is 1.35 END. With 10 targets affected, that is 13.5 END. Maxing it out with EndMod enhancements with a 42.4% boost each gets you up to 10.91% Recover buff which has a 118.16% effectiveness over base, which is 0.19 END/second. Which is 2.85 END gained after 15 seconds from a single target, and 28.5 END if 10 targets were affected. At the same time, triggering the power (with all those End Mod enhancements) grants you 43.63 END after the cast time, up from the 20 END base. (Net gain of 72.13 END after everything has finished.)

 

1.666... * .05 = .08333..., not .9

 

.8333... * 15 = 1.25

Was using Mids numbers for simplicity. Setting aside the numbers I got from Mids, let's run the numbers.

 

100 END/60 seconds = 1.6667 (rounding off at 4 decimal places)

1.6667*.05 = 0.083335 (rounding off to 0.08334)

0.08334*15 = 1.2501 END

1.2501 END*10 targets = 12.501 END

12.501 + 20 (up front END) = 32.501 END gained not counting 0.52 END spent to trigger power.

 

0.08334*2.1816 (base 100% + 118.16% enhancement) = 0.181814544 (rounded off to 0.1818)

0.1818*15 = 2.727 END

2.727 END*10 targets = 27.27 END

20*2.1816 (up front END x enhancement) = 46.632 END

27.27 END + 46.632 END = 73.902 END gained not counting 0.52 END spent to trigger power.

 

Ignoring the numbers from Mids and deriving the numbers still grants the character a lot of END after those 15 seconds.

 

Edit: And if you only have a single enemy to drain? That is 21.25 END and 49.359 END gained respectively.

 

Edit again: I went out 5 places for one of the numbers... so correcting for that becomes:

0.0833*15 = 1.2495

1.2495*10 = 12.495

20 + (12.495 or 1.2495) = 32.495 or 21.2495 END gained (10 targets or single target)

 

0.0833*2.1816 = 0.1817

0.1817*15 = 2.7255

2.7255*10 = 27.255

46.632 + (27.255 or 2.7255) = 73.887 or 49.3575 gained (10 targets or single target)

Edited September 19, 2023 by Rudra

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

I get the impression you haven't run the numbers on this. The Recovery buff on Consume adds up to 1.25 endurance per target hit. If you max the endmod enhancement and hit the maximum of 10 targets with Consume, that's a little less than 25 total endurance. Over 15 seconds. That's the same as a small blue inspiration, except it takes a quarter of a minute for you to get the endurance instead of getting it all at once.

 

 

The default Recovery rate is 6.667% of your total maximum Endurance every 4 seconds.  Each point of +Recovery reduces the period between Recovery pulses.  +Recovery is not a flat +Endurance refill, nor does it increase the amount of Endurance gained per Recovery pulse, it is a modification of the time between pulses.  Thinking of it as additional +End is erroneous.  The net effect isn't +End, it's a longer period during which you don't need +End.

 

Slotted with 3x +0 EndMod SOs, Consume adds up to 97% +Recovery (10 targets hit), just short of double the base rate, which equates to a Recovery pulse every 2.03 seconds.

 

Of course, we're not playing in a vacuum (despite what some people want to make it seem like) in which we only have a power like Consume to buff Recovery.  Everyone has Stamina, which adds 25% +Recovery sans enhancements.  As Recovery is cumulative, the 2.03 seconds it would take between Recovery pulses is further shortened to 1.798 seconds by that unslotted Stamina.  Slotting Stamina identically reduces the time between pulses even further, to 1.62467 seconds.

 

At level 50, with an IO build and extra EndMod from an Alpha Incarnate, a character's total Recovery including the buff from Consume can go to 300% (or higher, depending on set bonuses), resulting in Recovery pulses every 1.353 seconds (or faster).  This does not include the empowerment station buff (Increase Recovery, +17% Recovery for 90 minutes), or the Recovery Serum sold by the P2W vendor (+100% Recovery for 4 minutes), or anything else, just Stamina, Consume and whatever IO set bonuses you've accumulated.

 

And none of that is including the effect of +MaxEnd from accolades, temporary powers or IO set bonuses, which increase the amount of Endurance gained with each Recovery pulse.  The higher your maximum Endurance, the more Endurance you regain with each Recovery pulse.  With only the Atlas Medallion and Portal Jockey, or the villainous equivalents, each Recovery pulse adds 7.33 Endurance rather than 6.67.  That's force multiplication, and you don't get that with flat +End.

As I said, that +Recovery in Consume equates to 15 fewer seconds during which you'd need an Endurance refill.  I said it and I stand firmly by it.  I know the math and I know the mechanic.

 

The problem isn't that I didn't do the math before posting, it's that analyzing +Recovery as though it were a flat Endurance refill is just another shitty vacuum comparison that misrepresents what Recovery is and does, ignoring its actual function and functionality.  You can't reduce it to a simple +X Endurance expression because that doesn't account for the cumulative effects of other sources of +Recovery, or +MaxEnd, or the fact that +End is finite (it can only refill the amount of Endurance that's below the maximum, and anything over that is ignored) whereas +Recovery continues to scale up to the target limit of the power, or anything else.  It ignores relevant factors and context, and inaccurately quantifies the mechanic.

[Vanden]

47 minutes ago, Luminara said:

The problem isn't that I didn't do the math before posting, it's that analyzing +Recovery as though it were a flat Endurance refill is just another shitty vacuum comparison that misrepresents what Recovery is and does, ignoring its actual function and functionality.  You can't reduce it to a simple +X Endurance expression because that doesn't account for the cumulative effects of other sources of +Recovery, or +MaxEnd, or the fact that +End is finite (it can only refill the amount of Endurance that's below the maximum, and anything over that is ignored) whereas +Recovery continues to scale up to the target limit of the power, or anything else.  It ignores relevant factors and context, and inaccurately quantifies the mechanic.

 

I don't know what to tell you man, it really is that simple. You can absolutely reduce +Recovery buffs down to individual +Endurance values, because Recovery buffs don't interact with each other multiplicatively like some other stats do.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

I don't know what to tell you man, it really is that simple. You can absolutely reduce +Recovery buffs down to individual +Endurance values, because Recovery buffs don't interact with each other multiplicatively like some other stats do.

What stats work together multiplicatively? I thought they were all additive or non-stacking.

[Vanden]

34 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What stats work together multiplicatively? I thought they were all additive or non-stacking.

 

Damage resistance is the first one that comes to mind. An individual 5% damage resistance buff will reduce the overall damage you take by 5% if it's your only source of damage resistance, but it will reduce the overall damage you take by 1/3rd if you are adding it to 85% damage resistance from other sources. This means you can't take a single damage resistance buff and draw a blanket conclusion about how much it contributes to the final performance of any given character.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Vanden

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Damage resistance is the first one that comes to mind. An individual 5% damage resistance buff will reduce the overall damage you take by 5% if it's your only source of damage resistance, but it will reduce the overall damage you take by 1/3rd if you are adding it to 85% damage resistance from other sources. This means you can't take a single damage resistance buff and draw a blanket conclusion about how much it contributes to the final performance of any given character.

 

Are you sure? I know Mids isn't the greatest reference, but removing the global 3% Smash/Lethal I get from one power's set on a build I went to check reduced my Smash/Lethal resist by 3%. Dropping the 5% damage resist proc dropped it by 5% as well. (Edit: Turning off Tough also dropped the build's damage resistance by the power's listed resistance.)

 

Edit again: I just went in game and did the same check. It was a flat match for damage resistance.

 

Edit yet again: And if you are claiming that adding 5% damage resist to 85% damage resist reduces the damage by 1/3 because of the actual damage the character takes after the damage resistance? That isn't multiplicative either. Just because 85% damage resist against 100 damage reduces the damage taken to 15 while 90% damage resist against 100 damage reduces the damage taken to 10, that is not a multiplicative result. That is an additive result. 100 base damage reduced by (2% damage resist plus 13% damage resist plus 24% damage resist plus 31% damage resist plus 15% damage resist plus 5% damage resist) is the same as 100 base damage times 0.1 (for 90% damage resist).

Edited September 19, 2023 by Rudra

[WindDemon21]

19 hours ago, Luminara said:

even when hard facts refute everything you say

Hard facts don't when I bring up anything like this, and in fact GIVE hard facts proving so if it denotes that (versus opinion based stuff)

 

19 hours ago, Luminara said:

That 15 seconds of +Recovery effectively delays the necessity of using the power by 15 seconds.  Until that stacking Recovery buff expires (meaning 5% base per critter, unenhanced for EndMod), your blue bar should remain pegged at 100%.  Consequently, on an SO-only build without Hasten, you're only at risk of running out of endurance for 1 minute 18.5 seconds.  But because you don't know how it helps, because you can't figure out how to make it work for you, because you need to contrive a reason to change the power, well, fuck it, get rid of it, and to hell with everyone else.  You're the only one who matters, after all.

Which for a power that has a 3 minute recharge for only 15 seconds is almost nothing in comparison versus the power having an actually decent recharge value. Especially if the mob is small, 5% recovery is absurdly pathetic to even be included in there with only a 15 second duration.

 

Risk of running out, that also assumes there are enough enemies to fill up your bar as well. If soloing or versus a boss/AVs, for many people this can easily not be the case, making the power THAT much worse. Hence the suggestion of also frontloading the end/recovery that the power gives (and if keeping the recovery also extending the duration to perma-able status if the recharge is still kept longer than 60s)

 

19 hours ago, Luminara said:

Your entire premise sidesteps the fact that powers are not balanced directly against similar powers, they're balanced within and against the sets in which they exist.  You point to powers in other sets, say, "Look, they do one thing the same, this power should be massively buffed!" and act like everyone should pat you on the back for noticing something that no-one else has ever seen.  Every power you list does something different and is something different, with one commonality (stealing endurance) which you posit should be all the reason  there needs to be for changes.  You ignore that Dark Consumption can crit

 

 

 

 

(DUH it's a primary power, not armor, seriously, a 3 minute rech, tiny radius moderate damage aoe and you're really trying to say "oh it can crit!"? GTFO)

 

 

 

 

 

, which none of these other powers can do.  You ignore that DC and Consume have Fiery Embrace tags.

 

 

(So does EVERY other f'ing damage power, which again, at that rech, tiny radius, and moderate damage, is practically nothing for the power actually working properly)

 

 

 

 

  You ignore that DC and Consume cost 0.52 endurance (total, not per critter, 0.52 endurance is the entire cost of those powers), whereas the +End powers in other sets cost 13 endurance.  You ignore that Ice Armor as a whole is balanced with Energy Absorption's +Def in mind, and that Energy Aura as a whole is balanced with Energy Drain's +Def in mind, you wave off the fact that they're integral to the damage mitigation of those sets as if it were irrelevant because it doesn't reflect your myopic concept of balance, or get you what you want.

 

No, you just focus on that one aspect, and stomp your feet and scream about how they should all be normalized because "ZOMG they're the same thing!".

 

You disregard facts because they're obstacles to your agenda.  You ignore fundamentals of game design because they don't bolster your arguments.  You wave off real balance because it's not the balance you want.

 

Oh, this is a doozy:

 

On 8/28/2023 at 4:48 PM, WindDemon21 said:

Dark consumption is similar, but since it's focus should be more on having it as an attack, the recharge should be lowered down to maybe 40 seconds. It should also have the -to hit that other dark melee/blast powers have. Then given the lower recharge, (but way more than a regular aoe attack), double it's damage

 

Yeah, just slip that in and hope no-one, except the people who you imagine work for you (the development team), notices.

 

Every time you start a thread like this, it's the same shit.  Every time you jump into a beta test thread, it's the same shit.  You manufacture some inane reason to change something, use the worst kind of armchair development to justify it, base it all on egoism, act like you're the guy in charge and try to talk down to everyone who has the temerity to respond to you (fucking hilarious, considering that most of your posts read like a 9 year old who's on his fifteenth mocha latte with triple espresso shots).  Christ, as bad as I am at reading people, even I've caught the note of disapproval, disgust and frustration from the HC team when they've tried to explain something (and had to deal with another round of you addressing them as though they were your employees, or morons who need to your guidance to do anything right).

 

You're making my fucking teeth itch.

Good, I hope I do after reading this utter bitter nonsense. I'm referring such powers to other powers ON the concept of balance regarding them (and also of proof how such stats do not OP the power or the set), while ALSO considering it within the set. Looking at the set itself, the power has always had way too long of a recharge. I'm not "ignoring" anything.

 

I'm bringing these things up BECAUSE I'm considering them with the set as a whole, and how the stats are subpar for the set. There is no "egoism" bringing it up, just simple math and playtime that justify when something isn't working right especially comparing it to the performance of of other sets.

 

You can moan all you want about me bringing these things up, I'll continue to do so if a power or stat does not fit or play right. Just because you bend over every time for the devs, doesn't mean that a power or stat shouldn't be addressed, or that even the devs are ultimately right either. You may see a power as just fine, but others do not. That's fine, but does not mean that you're in the right. Get off your "high" horse.

[WindDemon21]

18 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

I get the impression you haven't run the numbers on this. The Recovery buff on Consume adds up to 1.25 endurance per target hit. If you max the endmod enhancement and hit the maximum of 10 targets with Consume, that's a little less than 25 total endurance. Over 15 seconds. That's the same as a small blue inspiration, except it takes a quarter of a minute for you to get the endurance instead of getting it all at once.

Not to mention that's only IF you hit the max targets, which, given the recharge of the power and when you need end, doesn't always allow to max that. Also especially with the heal being needed in the power and the way it works (where basically you have to wait till there is a big enough mob) almost nobody really slots it for end mod either, which could be seen as a fundamentally bad part to the power to not boost its main function, but also seen as a benefit to not needing to slot for it, which in this case though, for how poor the power is WITH the current 3 minute recharge, slotting for end mod is also practically pointless cause even doing so makes it do fairly nothing if not facing the amount of enemies needed to fill your bar. Which also is what gives it that extra annoying "having to wait till just the right moment to use the power, which pushes the amount that you can use the power longer than whatever you have the recharge at, which is already exorbitantly long as is.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Just because you bend over every time for the devs, doesn't mean that a power or stat shouldn't be addressed, or that even the devs are ultimately right either.

What the hell?

[WindDemon21]

16 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

 

The default Recovery rate is 6.667% of your total maximum Endurance every 4 seconds.  Each point of +Recovery reduces the period between Recovery pulses.  +Recovery is not a flat +Endurance refill, nor does it increase the amount of Endurance gained per Recovery pulse, it is a modification of the time between pulses.  Thinking of it as additional +End is erroneous.  The net effect isn't +End, it's a longer period during which you don't need +End.

 

Slotted with 3x +0 EndMod SOs, Consume adds up to 97% +Recovery (10 targets hit), just short of double the base rate, which equates to a Recovery pulse every 2.03 seconds.

 

Of course, we're not playing in a vacuum (despite what some people want to make it seem like) in which we only have a power like Consume to buff Recovery.  Everyone has Stamina, which adds 25% +Recovery sans enhancements.  As Recovery is cumulative, the 2.03 seconds it would take between Recovery pulses is further shortened to 1.798 seconds by that unslotted Stamina.  Slotting Stamina identically reduces the time between pulses even further, to 1.62467 seconds.

 

At level 50, with an IO build and extra EndMod from an Alpha Incarnate, a character's total Recovery including the buff from Consume can go to 300% (or higher, depending on set bonuses), resulting in Recovery pulses every 1.353 seconds (or faster).  This does not include the empowerment station buff (Increase Recovery, +17% Recovery for 90 minutes), or the Recovery Serum sold by the P2W vendor (+100% Recovery for 4 minutes), or anything else, just Stamina, Consume and whatever IO set bonuses you've accumulated.

 

And none of that is including the effect of +MaxEnd from accolades, temporary powers or IO set bonuses, which increase the amount of Endurance gained with each Recovery pulse.  The higher your maximum Endurance, the more Endurance you regain with each Recovery pulse.  With only the Atlas Medallion and Portal Jockey, or the villainous equivalents, each Recovery pulse adds 7.33 Endurance rather than 6.67.  That's force multiplication, and you don't get that with flat +End.

As I said, that +Recovery in Consume equates to 15 fewer seconds during which you'd need an Endurance refill.  I said it and I stand firmly by it.  I know the math and I know the mechanic.

 

The problem isn't that I didn't do the math before posting, it's that analyzing +Recovery as though it were a flat Endurance refill is just another shitty vacuum comparison that misrepresents what Recovery is and does, ignoring its actual function and functionality.  You can't reduce it to a simple +X Endurance expression because that doesn't account for the cumulative effects of other sources of +Recovery, or +MaxEnd, or the fact that +End is finite (it can only refill the amount of Endurance that's below the maximum, and anything over that is ignored) whereas +Recovery continues to scale up to the target limit of the power, or anything else.  It ignores relevant factors and context, and inaccurately quantifies the mechanic.

You're both right and wrong on some points. The recovery value and ticking effect is correct, but the way additional recovery works.

 

While yes, it reduces the time between tics, EQUATES to that amount of endurance during that time period. It's all the same math, even mids will show you the end per second gained by the tics occuring FASTER. So IE, during that 15 seconds, you will gain that much more endurance more than you would without the recovery boost in effect, because the tics occur that much faster giving you that extra endurance.

 

The only point (which I believe it still ends up the same but depends how the system works), would be what happens when the recovery boost wears off before that next tic. Fairly certain that the speed still takes effect mid-tic to boost that tic to come faster, but the only point i'm not sure on is what is the game's "lag" time on registering the recovery buff to come on and off to affect that, but at any rate, the difference would be so minimal from the lag to really account for much even on a short duration buff like consume's recovery.

 

That said, in the aspect of consume, assuming you're using it only when there is enough enemies to refill your bar to full anyway, that means that the extra recovery does nothing, or does less, if your next endurance tic occurs before you use up more endurance granting you less than that 6.667 end anyway, so you actually get less time for that recovery to matter.

 

This doesn't matter on auto powers where you always get the recovery boost, or recovery buffs in general that don't bring you to full prior, but it's a double negative in consume's case further making that recovery it grants for such a short time less effective.

[WindDemon21]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What the hell?

I was just matching energies with Lum. *shrugs*

[A.I.D.A.]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:38 PM, WindDemon21 said:

Extremely not. My builds with FF procs always have it a little under 60 seconds, but that's still a FAR cry from what the power should be as I've explained many times above. The power is just not balanced right as an end gain power. (which is the primary function, again if i hear anything about the max hp I'll blow a gasket as that can/should just as easily be in temp protection or whatever) It also means it's pretty much completely useless for end against an av or such unlike the other similar powers were are up often enough to matter as they are on 60s recharges.

 

Again, straight 60s rech, would work, but if 90-120s with the recovery extended/more frontloaded as well that works too, but the power as is is definitely needs a boost.

 

You can cry all you like, but it's still a skill issue 🙂

 

The benefit to having a power like Consume is that your recovery only needs to maintain your endurance until the next time Consume comes off recharge -- in which you immediately fill your bar, as long as you have roughly 3~4 enemies around to hit with it. Which, if you don't, you probably don't need the endurance right then.

 

If you're having trouble getting it to recharge quickly enough, you clearly aren't building well, or playing well. This game is easy enough as it is -- don't beg for it to be made easier. It's not a good look.

 

You're explicitly and unequivocally wrong, and when that's pointed out to you, your response has been to throw a tantrum and double down on insisting that you're right actually, which doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. Maybe instead, you should sit down, accept that you're wrong, and stop bothering everyone with your tirade?

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Also especially with the heal being needed in the power and the way it works (where basically you have to wait till there is a big enough mob)

 

The +MaxHP is independent of the number of targets.  It's granted even if the power is used when there are no targets present.

 

It says that in the power's short description.

 

 

You don't know how it works or what it does, and you didn't even glance at the power's description, but you're throwing a tantrum over how "bad" it is?  🙄

 

8 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

almost nobody really slots it for end mod either,

 

The HC team has tools to examine game-related data, unlike you, so they're not going to be conned when you conjure hokum like that out of thin air.

 

17 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

slotting for end mod is also practically pointless cause even doing so makes it do fairly nothing if not facing the amount of enemies needed to fill your bar.

 

20 * 1.95 (3x +0 EndMod SOs) = 39 Endurance per target.  3 targets is overfill.  With 2 targets, 78 Endurance.

 

20 * 1.66 (2x +0 EndMod SOs) = 33.33 Endurance per target.  Still 3 targets, gets you to 100 exactly.  With 2 targets, 66.66 Endurance.

 

20 * 1.424 (1 level 50 EndMod IO) = 28.48 Endurance per target.  4 targets is overfill.  With 2 targets, 56.96 Endurance.  With 3 targets, 85.44 Endurance.

 

What's the problem, was the math too hard, or is 2-3 enemies more than your builds can handle?

 

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

Which also is what gives it that extra annoying "having to wait till just the right moment to use the power, which pushes the amount that you can use the power longer than whatever you have the recharge at, which is already exorbitantly long as is.

 

There are little doohickeys called "enhancements" in the game, for doing things like, oh, say, reducing the recharge time of a power.  There are global +Recharge buffs, too.  Even with an SO-only build, you can reduce the recharge time of Consume or Dark Consumption down to ~60 seconds, leaving you with only 45 seconds during which it's completely down.  On an IO build, you can have the total cycle time (recharge time plus animation time) down to  less than 45 seconds.  You can't make it for 30 seconds without a complete refill of your blue bar, and can't find 2-3 critters every 45 seconds?

 

That's just you throwing out wild hyperbole, though, and we're all aware of that.  No-one's that incompetent.  What you want is for them to change things so you don't have to make choices, like whether to slot these powers for damage or EndMod or Healing or Recharge Reduction, because that's what this is really all about.  That's the agenda of every thread you start in this section.  "Change this and that so I don't have to make any sacrifices in power selection or slotting!"  That's the core of all of your suggestions and complaints.

 

Christ, over the course of this thread, you've proposed that they not only reduce the recharge times of these two powers, but buff the damage and make them fully refill endurance with one target, essentially turning them into one-slot wonders for your god-mode power trip fantasies, and then proclaimed that they'd be "balanced", as if a PBAoE nuke which also refills your blue bar and recharges quickly enough to cycle into your attack chain be "balanced".

 

Pfft.  Dream on.

[Uun]

8 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

almost nobody really slots it for end mod either

Here's me not slotting it for endmod. Ignoring the Alpha slot, it provides 69% endmod, 69% heal, 79% recharge and 26% damage. (With the Alpha it provides 100% endmod.)

 

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Uun said:

Here's me not slotting it for endmod. Ignoring the Alpha slot, it provides 69% endmod, 69% heal, 79% recharge and 26% damage. (With the Alpha it provides 100% endmod.)

 

... now I want to see the rest of the enhancement screen... that's actually artistic.... 😶

[WindDemon21]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:05 PM, A.I.D.A. said:

 

You can cry all you like, but it's still a skill issue 🙂

 

The benefit to having a power like Consume is that your recovery only needs to maintain your endurance until the next time Consume comes off recharge -- in which you immediately fill your bar, as long as you have roughly 3~4 enemies around to hit with it. Which, if you don't, you probably don't need the endurance right then.

 

If you're having trouble getting it to recharge quickly enough, you clearly aren't building well, or playing well. This game is easy enough as it is -- don't beg for it to be made easier. It's not a good look.

 

You're explicitly and unequivocally wrong, and when that's pointed out to you, your response has been to throw a tantrum and double down on insisting that you're right actually, which doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. Maybe instead, you should sit down, accept that you're wrong, and stop bothering everyone with your tirade?

 

It's not, it's an expectation issue. I already said I usually have it below 60s. I'm not wrong, the intensity comes from how annoying it is hearing anyone think its fine when it's not, especially how annoying when there are the few posting here contradicting where i know sets very well, and basically everyone i ever encounter agreeing (even on unbiased sentence structure to get their opinion: and yes, I know how to do that,) but they never come on these forums cause they see it as a hassle, which is also really annoying. (hence where I REALLY wish there was some kind of in game poll that could be done to get the actual player-base response on these matters.)

[WindDemon21]

21 hours ago, Luminara said:

The +MaxHP is independent of the number of targets.  It's granted even if the power is used when there are no targets present.

Yeah I know, I was referring to the endurance for the power, which is, and always has been the main issue. Again, that max hp, since it's at closer to auto max hp values, not dull pain values, could just as easily be in temp protection etc. (which god after all this I really wish they just did that instead so people stop bringing it up as incorrect justification to try to allow consume to be at it's terrible stats that it is.)

 

21 hours ago, Luminara said:

You don't know how it works or what it does, and you didn't even glance at the power's description, but you're throwing a tantrum over how "bad" it is?  🙄

Not once did I say (or via what i said imply) that I didn't know what the power did or it's stats.

 

21 hours ago, Luminara said:

20 * 1.95 (3x +0 EndMod SOs) = 39 Endurance per target.  3 targets is overfill.  With 2 targets, 78 Endurance.

 

20 * 1.66 (2x +0 EndMod SOs) = 33.33 Endurance per target.  Still 3 targets, gets you to 100 exactly.  With 2 targets, 66.66 Endurance.

 

20 * 1.424 (1 level 50 EndMod IO) = 28.48 Endurance per target.  4 targets is overfill.  With 2 targets, 56.96 Endurance.  With 3 targets, 85.44 Endurance.

 

What's the problem, was the math too hard, or is 2-3 enemies more than your builds can handle?

I'm well aware of the math here. The point I've BEEN making, is that at that 3 minute base recharge, the power is still terrible in relation to other similar powers or what the set should have even max slotting for endurance modifications. Slotting for end mod, to get that little bit more endurance, on a 3 minute base timer is still REALLY bad mileage out of those slots especially in the scenarios for how wasted it is if you DO have a big enough mob, compared to literally any other end gain type power. It's atrocious. It's still completely baffling me that you're not seeing this.

 

22 hours ago, Luminara said:

What you want is for them to change things so you don't have to make choices, like whether to slot these powers for damage or EndMod or Healing or Recharge Reduction, because that's what this is really all about. 

What I WANT, is for the power to simply have proper stats so it's more useful to the set and in comparison to other similar (or even not similar) type powers and doesn't require proper mobs for how long the recharge is already in order to make it behave properly. All of your "justification" does not change that it's stats (simplest view looking at the rech needing reduced), are way out of whack for the power for end gain purposes compared to any other set that offers such. All it's doing, is stating that YOU don't have a problem with it. Which honestly I'm still finding VERY weird that you're not seeing it, it's just meaning that your standards for a set/power are much lower, and it doesn't bother you.

 

22 hours ago, Luminara said:

Christ, over the course of this thread, you've proposed that they not only reduce the recharge times of these two powers, but buff the damage and make them fully refill endurance with one target, essentially turning them into one-slot wonders for your god-mode power trip fantasies, and then proclaimed that they'd be "balanced", as if a PBAoE nuke which also refills your blue bar and recharges quickly enough to cycle into your attack chain be "balanced".

This is not it at ALL, which just proves you haven't been reading what I said properly. One, the damage suggestion was to DC to make it more favorable as an aoe that helps with end, rather than mostly only an end power on too long of a recharge. I NEVER mentioned increasing the damage on consume, and would happliy remove the damage if not for allowing more IO set slotting, but say, hell bump the damage down to .0001 damage and I'd still be just as happy if it means fixing the power for endurance gain. For the record, with the simple solution of reducing the recharge to 60s, I'd still be 6 at least 5 slotting the power, so your assumptions about my "goals" mean nothing.

 

And please for the love of god tell me in what crazy universe you think I EVER said that consume should be nuke damage...

 

I don't have to "dream on" cause I'm not dreaming anything crazy like you're trying to imply, I'm simply trying to get the power to have proper stats compared to other sets and within the set itself.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yeah I know, I was referring to the endurance for the power, which is, and always has been the main issue. Again, that max hp, since it's at closer to auto max hp values, not dull pain values, could just as easily be in temp protection etc. (which god after all this I really wish they just did that instead so people stop bringing it up as incorrect justification to try to allow consume to be at it's terrible stats that it is.)

 

Not once did I say (or via what i said imply) that I didn't know what the power did or it's stats.

 

I'm well aware of the math here. The point I've BEEN making, is that at that 3 minute base recharge, the power is still terrible in relation to other similar powers or what the set should have even max slotting for endurance modifications. Slotting for end mod, to get that little bit more endurance, on a 3 minute base timer is still REALLY bad mileage out of those slots especially in the scenarios for how wasted it is if you DO have a big enough mob, compared to literally any other end gain type power. It's atrocious. It's still completely baffling me that you're not seeing this.

 

What I WANT, is for the power to simply have proper stats so it's more useful to the set and in comparison to other similar (or even not similar) type powers and doesn't require proper mobs for how long the recharge is already in order to make it behave properly. All of your "justification" does not change that it's stats (simplest view looking at the rech needing reduced), are way out of whack for the power for end gain purposes compared to any other set that offers such. All it's doing, is stating that YOU don't have a problem with it. Which honestly I'm still finding VERY weird that you're not seeing it, it's just meaning that your standards for a set/power are much lower, and it doesn't bother you.

 

This is not it at ALL, which just proves you haven't been reading what I said properly. One, the damage suggestion was to DC to make it more favorable as an aoe that helps with end, rather than mostly only an end power on too long of a recharge. I NEVER mentioned increasing the damage on consume, and would happliy remove the damage if not for allowing more IO set slotting, but say, hell bump the damage down to .0001 damage and I'd still be just as happy if it means fixing the power for endurance gain. For the record, with the simple solution of reducing the recharge to 60s, I'd still be 6 at least 5 slotting the power, so your assumptions about my "goals" mean nothing.

 

And please for the love of god tell me in what crazy universe you think I EVER said that consume should be nuke damage...

 

I don't have to "dream on" cause I'm not dreaming anything crazy like you're trying to imply, I'm simply trying to get the power to have proper stats compared to other sets and within the set itself.

What it looks like you want is to change Consume and Dark Consumption into attack chain powers so they can give constant END boosts and be used as constant attacks.

[WindDemon21]

36 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What it looks like you want is to change Consume and Dark Consumption into attack chain powers so they can give constant END boosts and be used as constant attacks.

Two powers different things. DC, not constant like a true aoe which is usually around 16s for recharge, but not the crapfest 3 minute recharge it is now either. Something more like savage leap, only without the tp and higher damage, and even higher rech of 60 vs 40s is fine, with instead the endurance as a benefit. End gained per use less yes, but would result in more end gained with the shorter recharge and fact that you actually use it more often than waiting the extra time with it's longer recharge to HAVE to maximize every time it's end gain.

 

It would still be a decent end help, and is in the melee set after all, which usually most don't offer any end help, especially with more loaded on the first target even with lower values. Relating to what I said earlier, key would be doing the right values on the first and supplementary targets, which would in any situations be it full mob small mob or single target, would still net more end than you get from it currently because you can use it more often. On the same note that Lum or whoever said, If you can't build with that help (which honeslty at 3 minutes base rech any change would be an improvement on end over time via any of the suggestions me or Vanden said), then something is wrong in the build, because the proposed changes would still be a net better endurance for the power. Or again in the simple fix of lowering the recharge down to 60s. Even with increasing the end cost to about 13 like similar powers, you'd still have some end reduction with IO slotting, and the end gain would be much better, again even with lower end values.

 

And consume, no, like i even said lower the damage it does down to .0001 damage I don't care (more to keep IO slotting), but the damage is so piddly that's not the factor of focus and never was. Consume, always was, and even now with the max hp, since it's at auto values not dull pain values, should still have the main focus on the end gain it provides, which 3 minutes for the base recharge just does not cut it. Again honestly I wish they'd just move that max HP to temp protection to remove that from the discussion, the values are about auto levels anyway, and they don't stack with multiple consume casts, so even if the rech was reduced to 60s and the max hp buff lasted 2 minutes, there is still no cry of OP on it since it's auto values anyway.

 

Edit: another way of saying, what I WANT is for the power to not be absolutely terrible for endurance in low or even mid level/builds, and for it to not be after a full build with slotting, bonuses, and hasten to feel like "ughh it's still taking forever even after all of this" to do what it should.

Edited September 20, 2023 by WindDemon21

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Two powers different things. DC, not constant like a true aoe which is usually around 16s for recharge, but not the crapfest 3 minute recharge it is now either. Something more like savage leap, only without the tp and higher damage, and even higher rech of 60 vs 40s is fine, with instead the endurance as a benefit. End gained per use less yes, but would result in more end gained with the shorter recharge and fact that you actually use it more often than waiting the extra time with it's longer recharge to HAVE to maximize every time it's end gain.

 

It would still be a decent end help, and is in the melee set after all, which usually most don't offer any end help, especially with more loaded on the first target even with lower values. Relating to what I said earlier, key would be doing the right values on the first and supplementary targets, which would in any situations be it full mob small mob or single target, would still net more end than you get from it currently because you can use it more often. On the same note that Lum or whoever said, If you can't build with that help (which honeslty at 3 minutes base rech any change would be an improvement on end over time via any of the suggestions me or Vanden said), then something is wrong in the build, because the proposed changes would still be a net better endurance for the power. Or again in the simple fix of lowering the recharge down to 60s. Even with increasing the end cost to about 13 like similar powers, you'd still have some end reduction with IO slotting, and the end gain would be much better, again even with lower end values.

 

And consume, no, like i even said lower the damage it does down to .0001 damage I don't care (more to keep IO slotting), but the damage is so piddly that's not the factor of focus and never was. Consume, always was, and even now with the max hp, since it's at auto values not dull pain values, should still have the main focus on the end gain it provides, which 3 minutes for the base recharge just does not cut it. Again honestly I wish they'd just move that max HP to temp protection to remove that from the discussion, the values are about auto levels anyway, and they don't stack with multiple consume casts, so even if the rech was reduced to 60s and the max hp buff lasted 2 minutes, there is still no cry of OP on it since it's auto values anyway.

 

Edit: another way of saying, what I WANT is for the power to not be absolutely terrible for endurance in low or even mid level/builds, and for it to not be after a full build with slotting, bonuses, and hasten to feel like "ughh it's still taking forever even after all of this" to do what it should.

I've already said why Dark Consumption is in the Dark Melee set instead of the Dark Armor set, using the reasoning the Live devs gave. I disagree with your take on Consume and Dark Consumption. Others disagree with your take on Consume and Dark Consumption. There hasn't been a single comment made by anyone other than yourself to support the OP. Even @Vanden who seems to be in favor of a tweak does not seem to be in favor of the OP itself. Maybe the devs will agree with you, who knows. Right now though? This entire thread has been a repetitive circle of pretty much just opposition.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Rudra said:

I've already said why Dark Consumption is in the Dark Melee set instead of the Dark Armor set, using the reasoning the Live devs gave. I disagree with your take on Consume and Dark Consumption. Others disagree with your take on Consume and Dark Consumption. There hasn't been a single comment made by anyone other than yourself to support the OP. Even @Vanden who seems to be in favor of a tweak does not seem to be in favor of the OP itself. Maybe the devs will agree with you, who knows. Right now though? This entire thread has been a repetitive circle of pretty much just opposition.

I agree hence the frustration, cause there are countless I encounter who agree but don't seem to come on here, and I play/make so many builds where the powers at that recharge REALLY stand out poorly in comparison to any others I play. And on the other side not to say, especially when looking at other similar powers would fixing that do anything even remotely close to OPing the set either (consume, DC needs other adjustments I mentioned to not OP it), so the backlash trying to fix them just seems, extra weird and frustrating.

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yeah I know, I was referring to the endurance for the power

 

You're going to insist that you didn't misunderstand how the +MaxHP buff works, rather, you can't find, or won't approach, a spawn large enough (3 targets) for the +Endurance to refill your bar?

 

Okay...

 

18 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Not once did I say (or via what i said imply) that I didn't know what the power did or it's stats.

 

Of course you didn't.  Of course.

 

19 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'm well aware of the math here.

 

Then it's the 3 enemies that you're having trouble with?  That's not a problem with the power, or the game.
 

21 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

the power is still terrible in relation to other similar powers

 

Dark Consumption is the only similar power.  We covered that earlier.  Your continual assertion that Consume and Dark Consumption are "similar" to powers like Energy Absorption and Energy Drain is erroneous and disregards the fact that those powers are specifically balanced within the context of their respective sets.  They have lower base recharge times because the sets in which they're placed were designed and balanced around those powers being available more frequently.  Fiery Aura is not balanced around Consume having a lower recharge time.  Dark Melee is not balanced around Dark Consumption having a lower recharge time.  The fact that Consume and Dark Consumption restore Endurance does not make them directly equivalent to other powers which restore Endurance.

 

That any power does anything that any other power does is not justification for buffs.  That's as ludicrous as insisting that Snap Shot and Atomic Blast both deal damage, so Snap Shot should be buffed because it's not on par with Atomic Blast.

 

Oh... did I just spill the beans on your next "suggestion"?  Oops.

 

53 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Slotting for end mod, to get that little bit more endurance

 

A 95% increase isn't a "little bit more".  Should I walk you through the math again?

 

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

how wasted it is if you DO have a big enough mob

 

You keep exaggerating on this point.  That "big enough mob" is 3.  That also happens to be the same number of minions the game expects you to be capable of fighting at the default difficulty setting.

 

Oh, hey, wow, look at that, there appears to be a direct correlation between the design of the power and the number of enemies in a default difficulty spawn, as though the developers ran the numbers and said, "If the players slot this for EndMod, it will completely refill their Endurance in a single default difficulty spawn".

 

Nah, they just fucked up, right?

 

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

What I WANT, is for the power to simply have proper stats

You mean your definition of "proper", which is based solely on the conceit that you. despite having no comprehension of balance or design. are wiser, smarter and better at "stuff" than the people who created the game, the people who shepherded the game, the people who resurrected and currently maintain the game, and that only be by your glorious intervention will we be saved from the glaring failures of those who came before you.

 

Yeah... I don't think so.  We'll stick with who we have running the show now, thanks.

 

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

YOU don't have a problem with it. Which honestly I'm still finding VERY weird that you're not seeing it

 

Let's recap:  You say you can get Consume down to a 60 second recharge time, which means you only have to struggle with your endurance management issues for 45 seconds, and it's recharging quickly enough to keep the +MaxHP buff on you permanently... but, for some reason, you just can't find 3 enemies in 45 seconds (or die when you're facing SUCH A HUGE MOB) and if you do fight 3 enemies in that 45 seconds, you're flatlining your blue bar.

 

And Consume has to be changed to fix that because "the problem" is that Consume doesn't have "proper stats".

 

And people like me, who don't see "the problem", are blind.

 

Oh, I certainly do see the problem, and it's providing me with endless opportunities for entertainment.