Focused Feedback: High-Level Circle of Thorns Revamp

[Blackbird71]

19 minutes ago, Sovera said:

In a game with difficulty settings and myriad options no one will ever not reach 50.

 

No one will ever not reach 50, but *everyone* should feel that the enemies are becoming more difficult as they approach 50. That is the motivator to improve their skills or improve their builds.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree.  As I level up, and gain new powers and slots, I expect the difficulty of the game to remain the same relative to the current state of the character.  Yes, higher level enemies will be more difficult for what my character was at a lower level, but not once I reach the same level as the enemies and gain the appropriate powers.  I would much rather have a consistent experience from  1 to 50 than an ever-increasing difficulty curve.

[Sovera]

4 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

I wholeheartedly disagree.  As I level up, and gain new powers and slots, I expect the difficulty of the game to remain the same relative to the current state of the character.  Yes, higher level enemies will be more difficult for what my character was at a lower level, but not once I reach the same level as the enemies and gain the appropriate powers.  I would much rather have a consistent experience from  1 to 50 than an ever-increasing difficulty curve.

 

We can disagree. It's just our respective opinions. I don't think that there is a right or a wrong side to this. At most what there will be is the side of the game devs.

[KaizenSoze]

32 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

I wholeheartedly disagree.  As I level up, and gain new powers and slots, I expect the difficulty of the game to remain the same relative to the current state of the character.  Yes, higher level enemies will be more difficult for what my character was at a lower level, but not once I reach the same level as the enemies and gain the appropriate powers.  I would much rather have a consistent experience from  1 to 50 than an ever-increasing difficulty curve.

Well, low level CoT were more dangerous relative to the players than the high level versison. Think Positron 1&2.

Now, CoT have more consistent difficultly from 1-50.

[Blackbird71]

53 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

We can disagree. It's just our respective opinions. I don't think that there is a right or a wrong side to this. At most what there will be is the side of the game devs.

 

Totally fair; I just wanted to present a contrasting view.  I do appreciate your engagement and openness to discuss these ideas.

[WindDemon21]

On 2/8/2024 at 5:52 PM, Wavicle said:

NO level 40-50 content should be brainless. NONE. That people consider fighting these groups brainless is the BEST possible argument for why they SHOULD be buffed.

They're not "brainless" in the sense that we have mastered our build and fully IO'd the build out in order to achieve that.

 

There is literally again, every other content that is more difficult. If you don't like the "brainless" then go do literally everything else that exists besides council/cot in radios only.

[WindDemon21]

On 2/8/2024 at 5:48 PM, Sovera said:

 

You can bring your friend and run the mission at +1.

 

I can read the subtext that the friend will not be getting as much XP but since you avoided using that meter and spoke only of enjoyment then the bashing faces of fashos is there still.

 

Now if people would stop dancing around the subject that lowering the difficulty will bring fewer rewards we could have a more honest conversation about this, but I keep hearing about 'turn off brain fun activity' and 'bring lowbies', and those activities are the same at +1 as they are at +4.

 

 

Not pointing fingers as I don't have a dog in this race, but if only we could have a more honest 'lucrative turn off brain fun activity' and 'bring lowbies to reap phat XP' we'd be on firmer grounds of discussion.

You're right there were several "assumed" factors that should have been obvious here. That being one of them. Another, is that when you do them lower, sure maybe you'll survive, but there is also an issue/fun factor of the mobs also not just dying that much faster either. It's more fun having the battle last a little longer to kill them but getting rewarded with the better exp/influence by doing so. What's not fun is doing +1s and/or smaller team size where your aoes don't impact as much, and the mobs die too fast to really use your powers. What's also not fun is dying constantly or the fight taking longer because you're so debuffed/incapacitated that it's just a pain.

 

Again, literally everything else is tougher, let these two in radios only be.

[WindDemon21]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:28 PM, Coyotedancer said:

 

Check out Tina's arc in PI if you're running blue side. She has a few classic Old School farm maps like Wolf World that you can jump into in the 40s. AE is also always a possibility. Making a good level 40(ish) bash-fest mission... if there isn't one already, which would surprise me... wouldn't be hard if you used a faction like Axis or Battle Maiden's Warrior Earth goons, or even designed something custom with similar group powers. 

This doesn't work though, because even by the time you get to it, it only takes one idiot to click the glowie and make it so that toon can never get the mission again in a real world setting. Radios are the only main answer to this to get repeatable missions that are similar. Oro doesn't work because for some odd reason you still can't invite to your team after it's started even though you can with AE. AE doesn't work as well either for many reasons, confined location is kinda one, maps can be changed, lost, etc.

 

Radios are the only answer to have some easier fun content that doesn't have to be super annoying. Leave them alone. Change council/cot for anything else sure, but not radios.

 

Edit:

On 2/9/2024 at 6:46 PM, Sovera said:

Ouroboros comes to mind. Pick an arc you like and go ham. Plenty to choose from once knowing which is minimal on talkies or glowies. Plus, merits at the end.

See above

Edited February 12 by WindDemon21

[WindDemon21]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:41 PM, Coyotedancer said:

'Not sure I agree with that sentiment...

 

City is, and has always been, a very casual-friendly game on the lower end of the difficulty scale. It's attracted and kept quite a few players who just aren't All About ~THE CHALLENGE~ because of that. As hard as it may be for more challenge-focused players to understand, just wanting a low-stress button-mashing session isn't some kind of outlandish edge case.

 

Telling those players that they're out of luck and shouldn't get to finish a character to 50 is a pretty crap take given the type of game we're playing here. This isn't City of Dark Souls. 

Exactly. Coming here to relax and have fun is why I keep coming back here and stop playing most any other game. And again when there is literally every other harder content out there, there is no reason to take away the enjoyment that many of us get from just these two options. That is after all what the game is here for, to have fun, and there should be more stuff like that in the 50+ stuff. There is plenty other harder stuff for people who have fun doing the harder stuff.

[Cyclone Jack]

Don't forget to add the new L50 CoT mobs to the Shadow Shard Reflections. 😉 

 

Edit: Maybe not for this Page specifically, since you're working on Release Candidates, but perhaps in a future patch.  I would have mentioned it earlier had I thought about it.

 

(And while your at it, maybe add Arachnos and IDF forces to the Reflections) 😍

Edited February 14 by Cyclone Jack

[Burnt Umber]

After getting to test the two revamped groups here and there, I feel mostly mixed about the CoT's.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, The Curator said:

Thorn Casters:

• Two new minion Thorn Casters at level 50+ replace Ice Thorn Casters:
  • Blizzard Thorn Caster with Storm Blast.
  • Magma Thorn Caster with lava-themed Seismic Blast.

 

I really like the addition of new minions at this level, especially because it's a little boring to be otherwise facing the same cultists (e.g., thorn weilders) that I've been facing since level 1.  However, I wish that the "Blizzard" casters were renamed to something like Typhoon, Tempest, or Storm Casters to reflect their powers and inform players better.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, The Curator said:

Spectres

 

• New minion Spectres at level 41+ with Spectral Daemon Lord power suite.
• New lieutenant Spectres at level 41+ with Nerva Spectral Daemon power suite, and some additional attacks.

 

Demons

• New lieutenant Hellfrost Lords at level 36+ with cold-themed Thorny Assault power suite.
• Succubus lieutenants now spawn at level 46+, with slightly adjusted Succubus power suite.

 

I generally dislike these additions.  I don't find that the Spectres add challenge as much as annoyance. They can spawn in large groups and floor to-hit, which does make fighting harder but not it a way that requires greater strategizing (I mostly just stack yellows to bulldoze my way through).  Similarly, Succubi becoming lieutenants adds difficulty in that their confuse and placate powers prolong fights and, effectively, prevent me from attacking (and, in the case of confusion, buffing as well).  I do need to strategize more with them, but I wish they remained bosses only.  Furthermore, although I didn't exactly have trouble with Hellfrost Lords, I'm a little concerned about the design and addition of a more "anti-meta" enemy; they deal strictly cold damage with toxic DoTs, thereby countering the more common smashing/lethal defense builds and requiring either harder-to-get cold defense or reliance on positional defense.  It feels a bit as though they were balanced around players having inventions rather than single origin enhancements.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, The Curator said:

Bosses

• Created high-level versions of Madness, Ruin, and Agony Mages at 45+ with additional powers

 

I found these really fun.  They added great variety and, barring the times I got a horde of Death Mages on top of me, interesting challenge.  I definitely had to plan as I scanned groups for these enemies and strategize how to approach them versus the group on the whole.  Also, to me, it's great to see something that builds up to the various "Archmage of" enemies found in the portal missions, so it makes sense for these sorts of bosses to exist.

 

Overall, the changes to the Circle of Thorns don't make them terrible.  Sometimes, they're a neat challenge; other times, they're erring toward the other avoided groups like Malta.  I also found that my characters who were already juggernauts were slowed down less than my squishier ones, so there's a bit of compounded difficulty with the revamp.  Nevertheless, I do like that older groups are getting revamped and that there is some attempt to make these groups not totally "mindless face-rolls" when encountered.