The Fantastic Four: First Steps

[Ghost]

9 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

I won't ask you to elucidate.  I appreciate that you were willing to post your concern.

 

  There are character revisions I've enjoyed (Nick Fury) and character revisions I've hated (Karlie Morgenthau, the Flag-Smasher).  The latter for the overbearing pathos surrounding the MCU character, rather than the gender-swap.  There's also character re-interpretations I'm concerned about (MCU Sharon Carter, aka Agent 13), because it appears they're going morally polar opposite of their comic counterpart.  I was initially opposed to all of it at the start of the MCU, until I got the word that Marvel was not so much tampering with the comics as they were creating a new universe within their multiverse.  As the very definition of a Marvel multiverse is infinite variation, I was more accepting of any "variation" going forward, no longer seeing it as "change".

 

In specific regard to this film, one revision that comes up in discussions elsewhere of late is the Silver Surfer.  In my opinion, having a female Silver Surfer fits the situation named in the first paragraph, but I'm told that this isn't a gender swap like Karl/Karli Morgenthau.  This is a "What If...?" situation where Norrin Radd doesn't become the Surfer but Shala-Bal, Norrin's love interest does.  Apparently, in the comics, she actually is a second Silver Surfer, and at least for a time, both Surfers were active.  So in that sense, they've not strayed too far from the comics.  (This also gives me the thought that perhaps they might yet have Norrin Radd appear as a second Surfer.) 

 

 

That’s one change some fans are voicing concerns over.

I don’t mind it and am curious how it plays out.

The other changes are character personality changes….

Johnnie is no longer a brash womanizing playboy.

Sue is a strong independent woman who actually leads the team.

Ben is….shall we say…..there may be an Alan Masters instead of an Alicia.

I don’t know if any or all of this is true.  Could be a misunderstanding of what a couple of the stars have said recently.  Could also just be the Marvel haters twisting what was said in order to try and tank the movie.

We won’t know until it comes out.

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:10 AM by Ghost

[battlewraith]

I know the character is "The Silver Surfer" or some variation. But that shiny metallic look is so evocative of 90s era cg--it would be like having a character named "lensflareman." The effects people really need to find a way to get the idea across without it looking like a stock effect.

[Excraft]

  

13 hours ago, Techwright said:

There are character revisions I've enjoyed (Nick Fury) and character revisions I've hated (Karlie Morgenthau, the Flag-Smasher).  The latter for the overbearing pathos surrounding the MCU character, rather than the gender-swap.  There's also character re-interpretations I'm concerned about (MCU Sharon Carter, aka Agent 13), because it appears they're going morally polar opposite of their comic counterpart.  I was initially opposed to all of it at the start of the MCU, until I got the word that Marvel was not so much tampering with the comics as they were creating a new universe within their multiverse.  As the very definition of a Marvel multiverse is infinite variation, I was more accepting of any "variation" going forward, no longer seeing it as "change".

 

I agree with you on all points and not all changes are inherently bad.  However -

 

4 hours ago, Ghost said:

The other changes are character personality changes….

Johnnie is no longer a brash womanizing playboy.

Sue is a strong independent woman who actually leads the team.

Ben is….shall we say…..there may be an Alan Masters instead of an Alicia.

 

These are the kinds of things that I see as wholly unnecessary and more often than not, done poorly.  It's changing the characters from what people know and are familiar with to something totally different that just winds up alienating the built in fan base.  I just don't get the need for it, not in the MCU or other IPs.  The Fantastic Four has been around since 1961 and has been selling comics since then.  They're one of the most popular, most recognizable comics of all time.  There have been and still are people of all races, genders and orientations who enjoy the FF comics, have since the start and have never needed "someone who looked like them" for them to enjoy the characters and reading the stories.   

[Octogoat]

On 2/13/2025 at 11:53 AM, Techwright said:

 

You know, there's an incredibly easy fix for all this: the glasses.  Have Fortress of Solitude Jor-El A.I. design and print a high-tech Kryptonian device that looks like a normal pair of eyeglasses.  When Clark dons them, they do some high-tech Kryptonian mumbo-jumbo that messes with people's perceptions.  To any looking at him, glasses-wearing Clark appears similar but visibly different enough that he's never really considered.  In essence, these Kryptonian glasses become his mask.  

 

Doctor Who had a similar concept they called a "perception filter".  It was designed to hide something in plain sight by influencing people to look anywhere but straight at the object.

Sounds like hitchhikers guides other people's problem field

[Techwright]

56 minutes ago, Excraft said:

  

 

I agree with you on all points and not all changes are inherently bad.  However -

 

 

These are the kinds of things that I see as wholly unnecessary and more often than not, done poorly.  It's changing the characters from what people know and are familiar with to something totally different that just winds up alienating the built in fan base.  I just don't get the need for it, not in the MCU or other IPs.  The Fantastic Four has been around since 1961 and has been selling comics since then.  They're one of the most popular, most recognizable comics of all time.  There have been and still are people of all races, genders and orientations who enjoy the FF comics, have since the start and have never needed "someone who looked like them" for them to enjoy the characters and reading the stories.   

 

There's another thing they should consider as well:  Live-action F4 films do not have a good track record. The 1990s one was done strictly for legal reasons, and was on half a shoestring budget.  Most have never seen it.  The early 2000s ones are generally considered tepid, and the last one has generally been labeled utter rubbish.  It's vital they hit this one out of the park, or the audience will begin passing on seeing any future F4 works, feeling that Marvel simply has no idea how to bring the team to live action in a manner the audience craves.  We've already got potential viewers in a "wait and see" mode.  IMHO, the best way to fix this is to not mess with the comic formula this time around.  Once a few films have been established as "good" by the audience, experimentation might be possible.  But first they must convince the audience that things are on track this time.

[Ghost]

If the rumors are true - it’s an odd decision because Marvel already have a team that checks all the boxes they supposedly are checking for this movie - The original Alpha Flight.

 

 

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, Ghost said:

If the rumors are true - it’s an odd decision because Marvel already have a team that checks all the boxes they supposedly are checking for this movie - The original Alpha Flight.

 

 

 

That's one of the biggest problems with Marvel and others doing established IPs.  There's a bunch of characters they can use that check the boxes, that aren't what ifs (because with that idea, you may as well not make Spider-Man, Spider-Man for instance)...that people would love to see, but they continue to race and gender swap as if there aren't a long list of established characters that will check of that race or gender they want to use.

 

They're just wanting to use certain names, is what it really comes down to.  GotG should have proven you don't need famous names to make successful films.

[TTRPGWhiz]

Griping that Sue Storm should be more like the version that puts up with her husband talking down to her is wild.

My guess it that the Surfer is Shalla Bal and not Norrin Radd b/c this universe is (clearly) not the MCU, so after Galactus eats this planet and they get assimilated to the 'other' universe, there's a chance for 'our" Surfer to show up.

[Ghost]

31 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Griping that Sue Storm should be more like the version that puts up with her husband talking down to her is wild.

My guess it that the Surfer is Shalla Bal and not Norrin Radd b/c this universe is (clearly) not the MCU, so after Galactus eats this planet and they get assimilated to the 'other' universe, there's a chance for 'our" Surfer to show up.

I seriously doubt people are upset that Sue isn’t going to be “talked down to” by Reed.  That’s just a ridiculous statement to make.

 

I think it’s more the fact that he has always been the leader of the team.  Sue held them together as a family, but when it came to strategy and battles - it was Reed calling the shots.

 

If that’s changed, I can understand people being disappointed - especially for fans of the character.

Edited Thursday at 07:19 PM by Ghost

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Griping that Sue Storm should be more like the version that puts up with her husband talking down to her is wild.

 

That's not what anyone is "griping about".  As to Reed talking down to her in the comics, that's what he does.  He's the smartest man in the world in Marvel, but he's also an asshole.  It's part of his character.  I'm not at all saying that's what they should show in the movie.  Far from it.

 

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

I think it’s more the fact that he has always been the leader of the team.  Sue held them together as a family, but when it came to strategy and battles - it was Reed calling the shots.

 

^ This.  Keeping the team and family together and being their strength is important too, but I guess TPTB at Disney/Marvel don't seem to get that.  Unless she's the general calling all the shots, she won't be girl boss enough to check that box.

[battlewraith]

The premise of the Fantastic Four, as envisioned by Lee and Kirby in the 60's is absolutely ridiculous. It's a step or two above Scooby Do. Big brained Reed Richards decides to go on a space mission, to which he enlists his significantly younger girlfriend, her kid brother (!?!), and his football-player-turned-pilot former college roommate. They get pelted with cosmic rays and become super heroes. 

 

Sue being this cosmically powered mom figure that serves to "keep the family together" is just dumb. It's fine that Reed is the leader of the team, but it should be an actual team. They should have insights and perspective as superheroes. She shouldn't just be managing Johnny, making Reed's dinner, and then making forcefields when he needs her to do it. Not just because it's like an outdated "father knows best" 50s sitcom that we've moved on from, but because it reminds us of how bizarre Reed's motivations in the story are to begin with.

[Ghost]

36 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The premise of the Fantastic Four, as envisioned by Lee and Kirby in the 60's is absolutely ridiculous. It's a step or two above Scooby Do. Big brained Reed Richards decides to go on a space mission, to which he enlists his significantly younger girlfriend, her kid brother (!?!), and his football-player-turned-pilot former college roommate. They get pelted with cosmic rays and become super heroes. 

 

Sue being this cosmically powered mom figure that serves to "keep the family together" is just dumb. It's fine that Reed is the leader of the team, but it should be an actual team. They should have insights and perspective as superheroes. She shouldn't just be managing Johnny, making Reed's dinner, and then making forcefields when he needs her to do it. Not just because it's like an outdated "father knows best" 50s sitcom that we've moved on from, but because it reminds us of how bizarre Reed's motivations in the story are to begin with.

Im a little confused by the point you’re trying to make.

 

Is it impossible to update the story without completely throwing everything about the characters and team dynamic out the window?

 

I completely understand not making her the “housewife who tags along and does whatever her big strong man tells her”.

But is there not something in between that, and “boss lady with no weaknesses who runs the show because men stupid” ??

How do we go from one extreme to the other?  More importantly, why keep going to the extreme when audiences are not buying?

 

 

Edited Thursday at 10:53 PM by Ghost

[battlewraith]

21 minutes ago, Ghost said:

How do we go from one extreme to the other?

 

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know where it is going to go. I did read the comic as a kid and that side of the extreme was a thing. 

 

28 minutes ago, Ghost said:

But is there not something in between that, and “boss lady with no weaknesses who runs the show because men stupid” ??

 

What is the basis for this comment? Is there something in the trailer that indicates Sue will be "boss lady with no weaknesses who runs the show because men stupid."

Just writing that out--it sounds ridiculous. 

[Ghost]

9 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know where it is going to go. I did read the comic as a kid and that side of the extreme was a thing. 

 

 

What is the basis for this comment? Is there something in the trailer that indicates Sue will be "boss lady with no weaknesses who runs the show because men stupid."

Just writing that out--it sounds ridiculous. 

Most comic origin stories were ridiculous, as were most stories written for children.  
I don’t put any thought into it or let it bother me.

 

 

The basis is the discussion that spawned from the unsubstantiated rumors about the movie.  Nothing was to be taken as fact (which I mentioned earlier) - it was just a “what if this is true” scenario.

[battlewraith]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

The basis is the discussion that spawned from the unsubstantiated rumors about the movie.  Nothing was to be taken as fact (which I mentioned earlier) - it was just a “what if this is true” scenario.

 

If Sue is a strong independent woman who is leading the team, that would put her in a situation similar to other female supergroup leaders. Such as when Wasp lead the Avengers or Storm took over leadership of the X-men. I'm at a loss for what the problem would be.

[Ghost]

57 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

If Sue is a strong independent woman who is leading the team, that would put her in a situation similar to other female supergroup leaders. Such as when Wasp lead the Avengers or Storm took over leadership of the X-men. I'm at a loss for what the problem would be.

Simple.

She’s not the leader.  Reed is.

 

It goes back to what I was saying earlier.

If they want a team with a strong woman leading, those teams exist and are/were popular - make those movies instead of changing the dynamic to appeal to an audience that has proven to not exist.

I loved Alpha Flight and would be equally against them not having Jennifer Hudson leading the team.  She was the leader - that’s what I expect to see.  That’s what I want to see.  I’m positive that’s what other fans would want to see.
That is if they ever get off their asses and get the movie made

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 01:14 PM by Ghost

[ZacKing]

35 minutes ago, Ghost said:

If they want a team with a strong woman leading, those teams exist and are/were popular - make those movies instead of changing the dynamic to appeal to an audience that has proven to not exist.

 

This is exactly the point.  Changing these characters and their stories to "appeal to modern audiences" that "need someone who looks like them" does nothing but alienate the built in fan base who love the existing characters as they are.  It also incorrectly assumes that most "need someone who looks like them" for them to enjoy a film.

[battlewraith]

17 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Simple.

She’s not the leader.  Reed is.

 

Wasp was not the leader of the Avengers. Cap was. Then it changed. Same with the X-men. 

The source material is comic books, which are subject to constant change and retconning, which is done to express different writer's ideas of what these characters are like but also to bring them in line with later eras to make them relevant to newer audiences.

 

Regarding Alpha Flight, do you mean Heather Hudson? So Alpha Flight had a male leader--James Hudson who is a scientist that makes a power suit and becomes a superhero. He dies, and his girlfriend who has no superpowers or scientific background takes over the team. You're all for that--but the thought of Sue who is actually a very powerful character leading the team is an issue. Whaaaat?

[Ghost]

18 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

Wasp was not the leader of the Avengers. Cap was. Then it changed. Same with the X-men. 

The source material is comic books, which are subject to constant change and retconning, which is done to express different writer's ideas of what these characters are like but also to bring them in line with later eras to make them relevant to newer audiences.

 

Regarding Alpha Flight, do you mean Heather Hudson? So Alpha Flight had a male leader--James Hudson who is a scientist that makes a power suit and becomes a superhero. He dies, and his girlfriend who has no superpowers or scientific background takes over the team. You're all for that--but the thought of Sue who is actually a very powerful character leading the team is an issue. Whaaaat?

Heather (his wife) was the leader from issue #1.

Yes James created it, but he was not part of the story (except in flashbacks).  He was already dead by time the story started, which was a big part of the story and why she became the hero she became.

I do not want that changed - I want the characters, the team and the dynamic I grew up reading about.

 

If it’s really that hard for you to understand, no amount of explaining is going to change your mind.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Edited Friday at 02:20 PM by Ghost

[battlewraith]

23 minutes ago, Ghost said:

If it’s really that hard for you to understand, no amount of explaining is going to change your mind.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

It's not hard to understand. It's just quaint. I think I got over this disappointment while I was still reading comics. Long before they started making blockbuster superhero films.

Some artist or writer would take over a title and destroy everything that I liked about it. But the comics continued. People kept buying them. I wasn't the true fanbase that was the center of success for a given character. 

 

As an adult who read FF in the 70s and 80s I'm looking forward to this movie. I'm absolutely not interested in seeing the Sue from my childhood on the big screen in 2025. 

Edited Friday at 02:43 PM by battlewraith

[El D]

51 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

This is exactly the point.  Changing these characters and their stories to "appeal to modern audiences" that "need someone who looks like them" does nothing but alienate the built in fan base who love the existing characters as they are.  It also incorrectly assumes that most "need someone who looks like them" for them to enjoy a film.

 

That still leave the 'appeal to modern audiences' bit - which is actually kind of important when wanting to put butts in seats, considering the modern audience is the only one buying tickets. Some things need to get adapted out or adapted differently, otherwise we would've been left with Ant-Man as a domestic abuser, Iron Man fighting Fu Manchu the Mandarin, and Namor looking like Spock in a green speedo.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm 1000% on-board that comicbook films have finally come around to treating the source material more earnestly rather than as 'inspiration' for drab, edgy, or realistic alternative takes - it's just that some aspects from the original comics weren't going to work at all for various reasons. With that in-mind, I think First Steps is actually doing pretty good. They're embracing the 60s roots of the Fantastic Four in ways that none of the prior film adaptions did, while still keeping the structure of the family and their overall story intact. Also Galactus actually looks like Galactus rather than a space cloud. That shouldn't remotely be a hard call to make, but given how some adaptations go it still gets them points.

[PeregrineFalcon]

17 hours ago, battlewraith said:

The premise of the Fantastic Four, as envisioned by Lee and Kirby in the 60's is absolutely ridiculous.

Are you REALLY trying to argue that comic books aren't ultra realistic takes on the how the world works?

 

17 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Sue being this cosmically powered mom figure that serves to "keep the family together" is just dumb.

What's dumb about it? What's wrong with a strong mother figure? Families and moms are very important to human society. Moms in particular are extremely important. Spoiler alert: the entire species dies off without them.

 

And Sue Storm being the super powered mom figure of the team is part of The Fantastic Four's lore. Change that and you're no longer telling a story about The Fantastic Four, you're telling your own story about a group of super heroes that are wearing Fantastic Four skins suits.

 

17 hours ago, battlewraith said:

It's fine that Reed is the leader of the team, but it should be an actual team. They should have insights and perspective as superheroes. She shouldn't just be managing Johnny, making Reed's dinner, and then making forcefields when he needs her to do it.

This at least I can agree with. But the writers can make Sue Storm a strong supporting character without making her a man-hating feminist girl-boss that "don't need no man."

 

17 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Not just because it's like an outdated "father knows best" 50s sitcom that we've moved on from, but because it reminds us of how bizarre Reed's motivations in the story are to begin with.

How are Reed's motivations bizarre? He's a curious scientist that wants to learn more about how the universe operates. What's bizarre about that?

[Ghost]

55 minutes ago, El D said:

 

That still leave the 'appeal to modern audiences' bit - which is actually kind of important when wanting to put butts in seats, considering the modern audience is the only one buying tickets. Some things need to get adapted out or adapted differently, otherwise we would've been left with Ant-Man as a domestic abuser, Iron Man fighting Fu Manchu the Mandarin, and Namor looking like Spock in a green speedo.

 

You may be missing the point of what is meant by “modern audience”.

They aren’t referring to this generation of movie goers.  They are referring to a subset that is either too small, or just doesn’t care enough to watch these movies.

Movies like Snow White. Ghostbusters.  Charlie’s Angels. The Marvels.

The video game industry is struggling bad over their push to ignore gamers and cater to the “modern audience”

 

As for updating the source material.  I am all for that.  
However, changing characters is not “updating source material”.

Its change for the sake of change.

It’s making characters unrecognizable to fans of those particular characters.

 

Anyways, it’s all just speculation based off rumors.  I’m looking forward to the movie, for now.

Edited Friday at 04:28 PM by Ghost

[battlewraith]

56 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Are you REALLY trying to argue that comic books aren't ultra realistic takes on the how the world works?

 

What's dumb about it? What's wrong with a strong mother figure? Families and moms are very important to human society. Moms in particular are extremely important. Spoiler alert: the entire species dies off without them.

 

And Sue Storm being the super powered mom figure of the team is part of The Fantastic Four's lore. Change that and you're no longer telling a story about The Fantastic Four, you're telling your own story about a group of super heroes that are wearing Fantastic Four skins suits.

 

This at least I can agree with. But the writers can make Sue Storm a strong supporting character without making her a man-hating feminist girl-boss that "don't need no man."

 

How are Reed's motivations bizarre? He's a curious scientist that wants to learn more about how the universe operates. What's bizarre about that?

 

There's nothing wrong with a strong mother figure. It's stupid when you're talking about a super powered team and somebody's defining characteristic is that they are the mom. To a group of adult men. It makes her look like a cliche and them look like idiots. 

 

"making her a man-hating feminist girl-boss that "don't need no man."

What is this? The allegation in this thread is that Sue is independent and leading the team. How would that entail this caricature?

 

Reed's motivations--do I really need to explain this one? I'm going to build a spaceship and explore the universe--with my girlfriend and her little brother. Cosmic rays? Oooops! Well, at least they got super powers instead of cancer. 

 

Also, in regards to telling your own story, almost everything in comics is a rif on something else. 

Look at this still from Journey to the Center of the Earth that came out just a few years before FF:

 

 

 

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, El D said:

That still leave the 'appeal to modern audiences' bit - which is actually kind of important when wanting to put butts in seats, considering the modern audience is the only one buying tickets.

 

Given that Hollywood and box office receipts in general is and has been in decline, changing familiar stories and characters "to appeal to modern audiences" isn't working to "putt butts in seats", is it? 

 

2 hours ago, El D said:

Some things need to get adapted out or adapted differently, otherwise we would've been left with Ant-Man as a domestic abuser, Iron Man fighting Fu Manchu the Mandarin, and Namor looking like Spock in a green speedo.

 

Namor being Spock in a green speedo is the character people were familiar with and wanted to see, not that absolutely godawful version of whatever he was in the MCU.  The Mandarin and Ancient One being changed was entirely to appease China so they'd play the films there.  Hollywood has been banking on the Chinese market for a long time now.  More often than not, adaptions are being made to sell toys to kids, so we won't see Hank Pym being a domestic abuser.