The Fantastic Four: First Steps

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Ghost said:

Nobody goes into a movie thinking “I hope the leads don’t die this time”

But they still want a feeling of pending doom.  They still want to wonder “how will they get out of this one” or “how they gonna beat this baddie”.

IMO that’s taken away when you immediately know - “no biggie.  They can just time travel and try again”

 

Then it goes from “I gotta go see how they deal with this situation” to “nah, I’ll wait for it to come out on video.  I’m sure they’ll just call the rest of the Avengers or pull some kinda time travel nonsense”

 

Thing is, I never heard people go "Man, Star Trek used time travel to save the day.  Guess there's no point in watching Star Trek anymore.  They can just use time travel to stop the Dominion."

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Time travel flares my IBS, both in real life and the movies. Endgame mostly worked because it lampshaded a lot of the silliness (the test runs, that's America's ass!, and having to heist the Space Stone twice), although it still got twisted up with the way Thanos sabotaged it.

 

If the new F4 is a period/time-and-relative-dimensions travel piece, it could be quite fun as a fish-out-of-water comedy with the team having to adapt to a new world where heroes are not only well-known and commonplace, but where Reed's advanced tech knowledge is either sixty years out of date... or still ahead of its time.

 

 

[Techwright]

6 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Thing is, I never heard people go "Man, Star Trek used time travel to save the day.  Guess there's no point in watching Star Trek anymore.  They can just use time travel to stop the Dominion."

They should have.   That said, the Dominion had to go through a certain wormhole, and well, time-suspending super aliens are almost as good, and a lot less messy.

 

Time travel:  really not necessary in the MCU.  Why?  Because they've already established the multi-verse.  When they either conclude or more likely mess up Earth-199999 there's no need to time travel reboot, simply either:

 

(a) have America (the star-portal universe jumper, not the nation) vacate the universe and bring the camera with her to another universe or

(b) have a character/team visit Earth-199999 from another universe, return home, and the camera shifts to them and their cosmic vine.

 

Either way, have Jeffery Wright make a live action cameo as the Watcher shifting his gaze to this new universe to solidify the decision to move along.  Doing so, you admittedly leave what's hated in place, but you also don't mess with what is beloved.  All the stakes that were in place with each story still remain in place for future viewers, but we get to tell all new tales of our favorite characters, and have all new actors playing them. 

[BrandX]

14 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Time travel flares my IBS, both in real life and the movies. Endgame mostly worked because it lampshaded a lot of the silliness (the test runs, that's America's ass!, and having to heist the Space Stone twice), although it still got twisted up with the way Thanos sabotaged it.

 

If the new F4 is a period/time-and-relative-dimensions travel piece, it could be quite fun as a fish-out-of-water comedy with the team having to adapt to a new world where heroes are not only well-known and commonplace, but where Reed's advanced tech knowledge is either sixty years out of date... or still ahead of its time.

 

 

 

I think people forget.  MCU actually made it so they CAN'T GO BACK IN TIME AND FIX THINGS.

 

Yes, they could go back in time and fix the Snap.  But that was all they could undo.

 

They can't go back in time and save Wakanda from Namor.

 

All time travel did in MCU was go back in time to get some destroyed items that will allow us to undo something.  They can't undo the damage Thanos attacking Wakanda could do for instance.  They can't go back in time and stop T'Challa's father from dying.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

44 minutes ago, BrandX said:

MCU actually made it so they CAN'T GO BACK IN TIME AND FIX THINGS.

"...wait, you mean Back To The Future was bull***t?" ...that, pretty much.

 

Per Bruce, each change doesn't fix the existing timeline, because that would be a Grandfather paradox.

After all, if you went back in time to fix a problem and fixed it, then the timeline changed around it - how would you know what to fix?

Instead, any change made creates a new variant timeline. (And, handily, a fine spinoff series for Loki).

Which is quite a neat way of sidestepping the whole oh-no-fixed-point-timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly stuff. 

 

I wasn't thinking about F4 going back in time - I was thinking forwards and a little bit sideways, to current MCU continuity from their more idealised 1960s home. 

[Glacier Peak]

33 minutes ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

I wasn't thinking about F4 going back in time - I was thinking forwards and a little bit sideways, to current MCU continuity from their more idealised 1960s home. 

Same. Like you were saying, Reed's inventions being ahead of his time. 

[Techwright]

3 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

"...wait, you mean Back To The Future was bull***t?" ...that, pretty much.

 

Per Bruce, each change doesn't fix the existing timeline, because that would be a Grandfather paradox.

After all, if you went back in time to fix a problem and fixed it, then the timeline changed around it - how would you know what to fix?

Instead, any change made creates a new variant timeline. (And, handily, a fine spinoff series for Loki).

Which is quite a neat way of sidestepping the whole oh-no-fixed-point-timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly stuff.

 

And yet, Steve Rogers returned to the past and stayed there.  So...was he actually the secret father to Peggy's kids seen in photos in The Winter Soldier? Was Peggy playing dumb for timeline reasons?  Or did he create a separate timeline, and if so, how did he figure out which timeline/universe to return to so (after so much time and presumably other splinters) that Sam could get the shield?

 

Honestly, I think the MCU creators deliberately muddy the waters so that there is a lot of debate and squabbling over the issue, but any chance at a rock-solid answer is unreachable.  Yes, that's even with the events of Loki which still left a few questions as to "well how did that work, because..."

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

42 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Yes, that's even with the events of Loki which still left a few questions as to "well how did that work, because..."

Wizards did it. 

 

And while I am absolutely the last person to question Peggy and Cap's happy ending, how did she maintain that sparkling career as SHIELD founder with six-two of legendary blond superhero in tow and nobody bats an eyelid or mentions it? 

And does Steve just retire and become a cookie-baking househusband, coach Little League? I doubt it.

With Captain America officially MIA, that helps the cover a bit if he decides to become Roger Stevens or something. But there are going to be enough people around who know...

[Ghost]

Time travel is simple to understand….if you don’t think about it 🙂

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Wizards did it. 

 

And while I am absolutely the last person to question Peggy and Cap's happy ending, how did she maintain that sparkling career as SHIELD founder with six-two of legendary blond superhero in tow and nobody bats an eyelid or mentions it? 

 

But there are going to be enough people around who know...

1)  I'm pretty sure they prefer to be referred to as "sorcerers" 😏

3) Why do you think Howard talks about Steve Rogers all the time in front of Tony?  😉

2) It's actually crazier than that, because it means that at least Steve Rogers has to sit on the knowledge that SHIELD is being infiltrated by that parasite HYDRA, and do nothing, allowing thousands to die to preserve the timeline.  If he's told Peggy or even Howard, then they all have to refuse to act.   Alternatively, if Steve did create a splinter timeline, then he could tell Peggy and Howard and they'd clean house.  Then pretty much everything changes, starting with the rescue of Bucky and thereby Howard Stark as well.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Time travel is simple to understand….if you don’t think about it 🙂

What do we want?

 

A time machine! 

 

When do we want it?

 

It's irrelevant!

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

And yet, Steve Rogers returned to the past and stayed there.  So...was he actually the secret father to Peggy's kids seen in photos in The Winter Soldier? Was Peggy playing dumb for timeline reasons?  Or did he create a separate timeline, and if so, how did he figure out which timeline/universe to return to so (after so much time and presumably other splinters) that Sam could get the shield?

 

Honestly, I think the MCU creators deliberately muddy the waters so that there is a lot of debate and squabbling over the issue, but any chance at a rock-solid answer is unreachable.  Yes, that's even with the events of Loki which still left a few questions as to "well how did that work, because..."

 

I think he did a new time line.  Anything else and they're going against what they stated.

 

HOWEVER

 

Who's to say Peggy of the main MCU universe (616) didn't marry an alternate universe Steve who did the same thing?

 

[Techwright]

17 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Who's to say Peggy of the main MCU universe (616) didn't marry an alternate universe Steve who did the same thing?

 

 

 

Also, Earth-616 is the comic book universe.  Earth-199999 is the film/Disney+ universe.  I'm aware of some film characters apparently calling it "616" but there are significant differences between the two, and the comic books were here first.  Additionally, there's a jibe to the MCU Spider-man in Spider-man: Across the Spider-verse that refers to him as "199999".  I don't know why Marvel muddied the waters.

 

EDIT: for a list of universes, including 199999 with description, here's the Wiki page.   It notes under Earth-616 that "616" was a lie told by MCU Mysterio.

 

 

Edited July 23 by Techwright
additional info added

[BrandX]

51 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

 

Also, Earth-616 is the comic book universe.  Earth-199999 is the film/Disney+ universe.  I'm aware of some film characters apparently calling it "616" but there are significant differences between the two, and the comic books were here first.  Additionally, there's a jibe to the MCU Spider-man in Spider-man: Across the Spider-verse that refers to him as "199999".  I don't know why Marvel muddied the waters.

 

EDIT: for a list of universes, including 199999 with description, here's the Wiki page.   It notes under Earth-616 that "616" was a lie told by MCU Mysterio.

 

 

 

I called it 616 because I had read that the MCU version calls itself 616 and that it's the 616 of the MCU and some other whatever.

 

So I just said that for that reason.  😛

[Techwright]

16 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I called it 616 because I had read that the MCU version calls itself 616 and that it's the 616 of the MCU and some other whatever.

 

So I just said that for that reason.  😛

Apologies if it came across as faulting you.  I'm a tad frustrated with the writers for muddying the waters, not with any viewer. 

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Techwright said:

Apologies if it came across as faulting you.  I'm a tad frustrated with the writers for muddying the waters, not with any viewer. 

 

Oh.  I agree with you.  I did not like that they called the movie universe 616 at all 😕

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Small update: Marvel invited everybody at SDCC to watch an after hours drone and fireworks show.

 

Guess who crashed the party…

 

[Techwright]

3 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Small update: Marvel invited everybody at SDCC to watch an after hours drone and fireworks show.

 

Guess who crashed the party…

 

 

What?  No cosmic cloud?

[Glacier Peak]

Robert Downey Jr. is returning to the MCU as... Doctor Doom.

 

 

https://www.ign.com/articles/everything-announced-at-the-marvel-studios-san-diego-comic-con-2024-panel

 

 

Setting up...

 

Edited July 28 by Glacier Peak

[BrandX]

Don't care for the casting.  Way to old in casting on this one.  Pedro and now Doom (which I guess they'd both have to be the same age).  

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

It does kind of feel like Steve Jobs coming back to Apple if RDJ is back. 
 

Also: like the retitle of the Avengers flick. For it will be the day of DOOM, and no-one else but DOOM. For DOOM is the mastermind, the genius and all-around visionary! It was DOOM who laid the original plan and set it into motion! Don't you see!? All you Kangs and HYDRA and TVA and SHIELD are DOOM’S plan! So your plans are DOOM’S plans, because you made plans and DOOM’S plan was to make you! DOOM never planned for his plans to make plans to stop his plan! DOOM plans to rule the multiverse, not to have DOOM’S plans plan to stop DOOM! The planner of you!

 

So stop, cease, desist! DOOM IS your creator! AND DOOM SHALL BE YOUR DOOM!

 

…something like that, anyway…

Edited July 28 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Techwright]

3 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

It does kind of feel like Steve Jobs coming back to Apple if RDJ is back. 
 

Also: like the retitle of the Avengers flick. For it will be the day of DOOM, and no-one else but DOOM. For DOOM is the mastermind, the genius and all-around visionary! It was DOOM who laid the original plan and set it into motion! Don't you see!? All you Kangs and HYDRA and TVA and SHIELD are DOOM’S plan! So your plans are DOOM’S plans, because you made plans and DOOM’S plan was to make you! DOOM never planned for his plans to make plans to stop his plan! DOOM plans to rule the multiverse, not to have DOOM’S plans plan to stop DOOM! The planner of you!

 

So stop, cease, desist! DOOM IS your creator! AND DOOM SHALL BE YOUR DOOM!

 

…something like that, anyway…

 

DOOM is Nemesis' plot.

 

 

Okay, I'm really puzzled about RDJ as Doom. Is he...

 

• The Victor Von Doom of the MCU universe (Earth-199999)?
• A Victor Von Doom of an alternate universe where Tony Stark became (or was born?) Doom.  (For that matter, is he Victor or is another name in play?)  If this is true, they're throwing even more shade on the "can't stay in another universe" problem that the last Doctor Strange movie wrestled with.
• The MCU Tony Stark miraculously revived but corrupted?
• An evil twin separated at birth from Howard and Tony?
• An evil clone of Tony created years before by Hydra?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

I'm not upset about RDJ playing Doom, per se.  I understand the behind-the-scenes power play here.  The MCU has not batted well in the Fourth and Fifth innings, and they brought their Babe Ruth back from retirement to calm frazzled fan nerves and drum up business.  I just think they're going to have to give a very solid explanation as to why it is RDJ.

 

Next question:

Why on earth (or nearby space) is Doom first appearing with the Avengers and not the Fantastic Four?  Doom is one of two signature enemies of the F4.  He represents a world wide crisis.  Galactus represents a cosmic crisis.  It should be a no-brainer to build from the smaller to the larger.  It certainly was in Phases 1 to 3 where we started (storytelling-wise, not internal calendar) with Obadiah Stane, built to the global threat of Red Skull and Hydra, the global threat and European disaster of Ultron, and eventually ended up with the universal threat and complete disaster that was Thanos. 

 

I'm not opposed to Pedro as Mr. Fantastic, it's just that I can see other actors in the role rather than him, and yes, John Krasinski is among them.  I think this is yet another power play to bring some life back to the MCU by bringing Mando fans over.

[Glacier Peak]

To reminds folks of past MCU actors with multiple roles... https://screenrant.com/mcu-actors-multiple-roles-marvel-movies/

 

Alfre Woodard Played Mariah Dillard & Miriam Sharpe - Appeared Luke Cage & Captain America: Civil War

 

Benedict Cumberbatch Played Doctor Strange & Dormammu - Appeared In Multiple MCU Movies

 

Clancy Brown Played Surtur & The Blacksmith - Appeared In Thor: Ragnarok & Daredevil

 

Gemma Chan Played Minn-Erva & Sersi - Appeared In Captain Marvel & Eternals

 

Kenneth Choi Played Private Jim Morita & Principal Morita - Appeared In Captain America: The First Avengers & Spider-Man: Homecoming

 

Linda Cardellini Played Laura Barton & Lylla The Otter - Appeared In Avengers: Age Of Ultron & Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 3

 

Michelle Yeoh Played Aleta Ogord & Ying Nan - Appeared In Guardians Of The Guardians Vol. 2 & Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings

 

Then of course, the Johnny Storms...Killmonger & Captain America

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

To reminds folks of past MCU actors with multiple roles... https://screenrant.com/mcu-actors-multiple-roles-marvel-movies/

 

Alfre Woodard Played Mariah Dillard & Miriam Sharpe - Appeared Luke Cage & Captain America: Civil War

 

Benedict Cumberbatch Played Doctor Strange & Dormammu - Appeared In Multiple MCU Movies

 

Clancy Brown Played Surtur & The Blacksmith - Appeared In Thor: Ragnarok & Daredevil

 

Gemma Chan Played Minn-Erva & Sersi - Appeared In Captain Marvel & Eternals

 

Kenneth Choi Played Private Jim Morita & Principal Morita - Appeared In Captain America: The First Avengers & Spider-Man: Homecoming

 

Linda Cardellini Played Laura Barton & Lylla The Otter - Appeared In Avengers: Age Of Ultron & Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 3

 

Michelle Yeoh Played Aleta Ogord & Ying Nan - Appeared In Guardians Of The Guardians Vol. 2 & Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings

 

Then of course, the Johnny Storms...Killmonger & Captain America

 

Okay Luke Cage, like the other "TV" series of its day (with the possible exception of Agent Carter) was ruled not MCU, though admittedly they've kind of soft-canon'ed it by using the multi-verse.  But that technique also means the 1990, 1979, and 1944 Captain Americas are technically MCU as well, and none of that was designed for the MCU. Not to mention the cartoon from the 1960s.  So I can see Alfre being used in a different role.  Chris Evans turn at Johnny Storm did not start as an MCU thing, the MCU didn't exist at that time, though like the examples listed above, it might currently be soft canon due to their take on the multi-verse.

 

Cumberbatch, Brown, and Cardellini were all playing a character live, and one that was CGI.  Big difference to what RDJ is doing.  Were RDJ to show up as another member of the Groot species, for example, that would be more in line with their performances.

 

Kenneth Choi, I believe was playing two characters of the same family over a couple of generations.  That's not an unheard of technique to show family resemblance.

 

Gemma Chan hits closer to the RDJ situation, though under heavy makeup she's not only playing a different character but a different species.  RDJ is playing the same species (presumably).  I suppose the mask can substitute for makeup, drawing the comparison a bit closer, but then it would have to be Doom with the mask on constantly, which is pretty true to the comics.  Doom has removed the mask in the comics at times, but last I knew, he never showed his face to the reader. 

 

Michelle Yeoh is the one name on that list that actually strikes a cord with the RDJ double role.  While her Ravager character is likely alien, it is close enough to human to count.  The Ravager is a minor character, almost a cameo, if I recall correctly, but the Ying Nan is an important secondary character in one movie.  RDJ will not be playing a minor character either time, though an argument could be made that Doom will be a strong secondary character, depending on whom the camera spends the most time.  Of course Ironman is not only a major character, but the first of the tentpole characters in the MCU.

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by Techwright

[Glacier Peak]

9 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Okay Luke Cage, like the other "TV" series of its day (with the possible exception of Agent Carter) was ruled not MCU, though admittedly they've kind of soft-canon'ed it by using the multi-verse.  But that technique also means the 1990, 1979, and 1944 Captain Americas are technically MCU as well, and none of that was designed for the MCU. Not to mention the cartoon from the 1960s.  So I can see Alfre being used in a different role.  Chris Evans turn at Johnny Storm did not start as an MCU thing, the MCU didn't exist at that time, though like the examples listed above, it might currently be soft canon due to their take on the multi-verse.

 

Cumberbatch, Brown, and Cardellini were all playing a character live, and one that was CGI.  Big difference to what RDJ is doing.  Were RDJ to show up as another member of the Groot species, for example, that would be more in line with their performances.

 

Kenneth Choi, I believe was playing two characters of the same family over a couple of generations.  That's not an unheard of technique to show family resemblance.

 

Gemma Chan hits closer to the RDJ situation, though under heavy makeup she's not only playing a different character but a different species.  RDJ is playing the same species (presumably).  I suppose the mask can substitute for makeup, drawing the comparison a bit closer, but then it would have to be Doom with the mask on constantly, which is pretty true to the comics.  Doom has removed the mask in the comics at times, but last I knew, he never showed his face to the reader. 

 

Michelle Yeoh is the one name on that list that actually strikes a cord with the RDJ double role.  While her Ravager character is likely alien, it is close enough to human to count.  The Ravager is a minor character, almost a cameo, if I recall correctly, but the Ying Nan is an important secondary character in one movie.  RDJ will not be playing a minor character either time, though an argument could be made that Doom will be a strong secondary character, depending on whom the camera spends the most time.  Of course Ironman is not only a major character, but the first of the tentpole characters in the MCU.

I wasn't making a justification or comparison to RDJ, only that there was precedent. Thank you for the context on these examples though!